True Morality Comes From Within

Morality is the social glue created by religious and ideological entities that hold society together and prevents anarchy and chaos. If it wasn't for moral codes and ethics we'd all be fucking sheep and eating human flesh.

Carne Seca said:

Morality is the social glue created by religious and ideological entities that hold society together and prevents anarchy and chaos. If it wasn't for moral codes and ethics we'd all be fucking sheep and eating human flesh.

Click to expand...

You seriously believe that? We don't fuck sheep and cannibalize our neighbors because we are TOLD it's wrong by an outside agency? Do you think it's at all possible that morality comes from within and that there is some innate guides that we follow instinctually? How do you think lower animals keep social groups without killing each other for food?

mindphuk said:

You seriously believe that? We don't fuck sheep and cannibalize our neighbors because we are TOLD it's wrong by an outside agency? Do you think it's at all possible that morality comes from within and that there is some innate guides that we follow instinctually? How do you think lower animals keep social groups without killing each other for food?

Click to expand...

I totally agree with this statement but I also agree with CS statement and find them to be mutually inclusive to each other in this view. We don't need an outside agency to tell us how to act but I think those innate guides we follow instinctually were conformed into the many religions.

Thats why I believe its so hard for people to always think clearly and seperate the dogma thats associated with religion, especially of modern times. They instinctually confirm that innate morality code that is guised in religion but fail in the ability to weed through the associated dogma that is more divisive and control oriented.

And why should they seek to challenge it if so much of it is already innately true to them. They have been warned of the consequences of doing so. Sometimes it takes a leap of faith to break free of this parallel, something many are not willing to do yet.

Brazko said:

I totally agree with this statement but I also agree with CS statement and find them to be mutually inclusive to each other in this view. We don't need an outside agency to tell us how to act but I think those innate guides we follow instinctually were conformed into the many religions.

Thats why I believe its so hard for people to always think clearly and seperate the dogma thats associated with religion, especially of modern times. They instinctually confirm that innate morality code that is guised in religion but fail in the ability to weed through the associated dogma that is more divisive and control oriented.

And why should they seek to challenge it if so much of it is already innately true to them. They have been warned of the consequences of doing so. Sometimes it takes a leap of faith to break free of this parallel, something many are not willing to do yet.

Click to expand...

The thing is that most religious people pick and choose from their holy book of choice as to which of the moral codes are applicable to them today. They don't even see that they are making value judgments all on their own and using the book as confirmation of what they already know and ignore the rules that say, for example, to kill adulterers. When they finally realize that man gave religion its morals and not the other way around, they have to question other things about the text and that makes them uncomfortable.

Carne Seca said:

Morality is the social glue created by religious and ideological entities that hold society together and prevents anarchy and chaos. If it wasn't for moral codes and ethics we'd all be fucking sheep and eating human flesh.

Click to expand...

mindphuk said:

You seriously believe that? We don't fuck sheep and cannibalize our neighbors because we are TOLD it's wrong by an outside agency? Do you think it's at all possible that morality comes from within and that there is some innate guides that we follow instinctually? How do you think lower animals keep social groups without killing each other for food?

Click to expand...

mindphuk said:

The thing is that most religious people pick and choose from their holy book of choice as to which of the moral codes are applicable to them today. They don't even see that they are making value judgments all on their own and using the book as confirmation of what they already know and ignore the rules that say, for example, to kill adulterers. When they finally realize that man gave religion its morals and not the other way around, they have to question other things about the text and that makes them uncomfortable.

Click to expand...

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, considering other posts I've seen, but I may be confused.

My best friend who is an unapologetic atheist still insists that as much of a problem he has with religion, without it society would be more chaotic and therefore less lawful. I asked him, being atheist, why he doesn't lie or steal from people since he has no threat of divine retribution. Of course his answer boiled down to, I have my own morality filter. His argument was that he is smarter than religious sheep, and these are the ones that would fall apart without biblical guidance. I shall have to point out your angle that the bible and other texts are full of examples of violent, amoral behavior, and it is the 'sheep' who filter out what they see as moral.

Heisenberg said:

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic, considering other posts I've seen, but I may be confused.

Click to expand...

Well if that's the case, then...Doh!

mindphuk said:

When they finally realize that man gave religion its morals and not the other way around, they have to question other things about the text and that makes them uncomfortable.

Click to expand...

I don't think they feel uncomfortable questioning the other things, I think they fear finally accepting the responsiblity of their actions. No longer being able to pass it off as the Devil made me do it. I used to observe during the times I would attend services of how people put on angelic faces and attitudes for an hour, (3-6hrs if Baptist lol) but then go right outside and start doing everything they just finished clapping and saying Amen about.

edit: sometimes I don't think they have as much faith in their beliefs as they have faith in a reliable accepted excuse. Not all people of religion are like this, just the hypocrites.

Brazko said:

I don't think they feel uncomfortable questioning the other things, I think they fear finally accepting the responsiblity of their actions.

Click to expand...

I think questioning their beliefs does make them uncomfortable. People get upset and take offense if you ask them why they believe what they believe. Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens all point this out in their work and make the point that if believers were honest with themselves about their beliefs, they would have no reason to take offense or get upset, which is a true reflection of what that person actually does believe.

Personally, I've experienced this with probably 75% of the people I speak to about it. Have also gotten into a few heated discussions with my own dad about it..

Sorry folks. I was being sarcastic. Morality does come from within BUT it does have societal and ideological influences. I was channeling Lewis Black for a second.

Padawanbater2 said:

I think questioning their beliefs does make them uncomfortable. People get upset and take offense if you ask them why they believe what they believe. Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens all point this out in their work and make the point that if believers were honest with themselves about their beliefs, they would have no reason to take offense or get upset, which is a true reflection of what that person actually does believe.

Personally, I've experienced this with probably 75% of the people I speak to about it. Have also gotten into a few heated discussions with my own dad about it..

Click to expand...

You probably have and your probably right. I just don't believe it is them who are personally challenging themselves to question their belief. They actually never come to the sense of feeling uncomfortable about anything until someone outside challenges them on their belief. My view is that they are never uncomfortable about their belief because it is accepted. When you are accepted, you feel normal. Why would anyone feel uncomfortable about acceptance?

And more to my point as you have stated Harris, Dawkins, and Hitchens have pointed out that its about them being honest with themselves and that's exactly what I'm saying. Honesty concedes responsibility. However its very comfortable and accepted to blame the Devil (EXTERNAL), not the evil (INTERNAL).

I don't disagree that comfort is compromised. I just disagree that anyone who has not opened themselves to being honest and accepting responsibility is in no sense of uncomfortable. You became uncomfortable with your beliefs.

Do you see the difference?

Edit: my view is that those who haven't already challenged their beliefs will eventually have no choice but to challenge their beliefs because their beliefs won't be accepted.

everyone had some really sweet input on this one, great thinking guys, great discussion

Morals and ethics are essential to any civilisation. But you don't need religion to be a moral person, not at all.

morality shmorality, fuck with social mores. To myself (my inner me) I know right from wrong based on what I was taught from my common sense parents not some doctrine or a rule book.

However if the sheep had a face like some hot supermodel, I might and if the flesh was topped with a slice of pepperjack and a tomato, perhaps