True HP Aero For 2011

r0m30 said:

Great progress Kdn, I'm making mist tonight as well. Still need to layout the wiring, hang and seal the doors and quit analyzing and just buy the damn light, but progress!
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A question for anyone who cares to give an opinion, What do you think of one of these (the 72 quart one 25" x 17-1/2" x 14" h) as a root chamber instead of the buckets? (TB if I'm thread jacking let me know and I'll edit and remove question)

PS sorry for the lousy pic but every one of my flashes is down for batteries

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You're totally fine here r0m. This thread is dedicated to HP aero and anyone wishing to talk about it or share their system here. Matter of fact I'm very pleased that you aren't just talking about it- but actually doing it! I'm not up and running yet anyway- so you can be the opening act . The pic was fine too- I can make out the accumulator and scrog net- but what type of timer are you using may I ask- I'm just curious what sort of control you'll have over the mist. As mentioned before, and what I got out of Cavadge's thread- was that the 5 gal buckets aren't big enough, so if you're really considering those other bins perhaps you should change it up now. The mist will have more room to expand and spread out evenly... I think the issue with the smaller chambers is that the mist gets too focused in some areas, and sticks to those parts, which causes other areas to not get enough mist- so you'll have some roots too wet, and others too dry- let alone when the roots really start bushing out and fill up the whole darn container...

hey guys.whats up.i've been going on to my 2nd round of HPA.wanted to help out a bit.this is the pressue release valve i used and wired to a regular 3-prong plug.http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3076-34-port-solenoid-valve-normally-closed-with-flow-control-stem-120v.aspx.as my experience with this is real easy to maintain but real difficult to setup.i have my last setup posted in another forum.heres the link if youd like to check it out gotta to be a member to see pics.https://www.greenpassion.org/index.php?/topic/27192-aeroponic-grow/page__p__355764__hl__+aeroponic++grow__fromsearch__1#entry355764.any question feel free to ask i really have alot of pics of the finished product.i switched a lot of stuff from my last setup.will be starting a new thred showing my new setup consisting of a 4x8 flood table and 28 5 gallon buckets under 2 1000 w lights

bigsmoker2 said:

hey guys.whats up.i've been going on to my 2nd round of HPA.wanted to help out a bit.this is the pressue release valve i used and wired to a regular 3-prong plug.http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-3076-34-port-solenoid-valve-normally-closed-with-flow-control-stem-120v.aspx.as my experience with this is real easy to maintain but real difficult to setup.i have my last setup posted in another forum.heres the link if youd like to check it out gotta to be a member to see pics.https://www.greenpassion.org/index.php?/topic/27192-aeroponic-grow/page__p__355764__hl__%2Baeroponic+%2Bgrow__fromsearch__1#entry355764.any question feel free to ask i really have alot of pics of the finished product.i switched a lot of stuff from my last setup.will be starting a new thred showing my new setup consisting of a 4x8 flood table and 28 5 gallon buckets under 2 1000 w lights

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Hey Bigsmoker, I appreciate you offering to share your experiences here for our benefit. I read your whole thread and of particular interest to me would be if you wouldn't mind posting a few of your best root porn shots here (if you have any). I have a feeling, and please don't take this the wrong way, but that your setup may have fallen short of the full hp experience that I'm trying to achieve. I'm thinking this is also the reason you might be switching back to flood/drain. Anyway, let me explain, as the whole point of this is either enlightenment for you, or for me. I have seen enough pics to understand that there is a big difference between true hp roots and regular roots. The HPA roots (if mist timing and rootzone moisture are controlled properly) will end up being covered with a white velvety type overgrowth (root hairs). This is only broadly induced by a very strict set of paramaters to do with just the right amount of rootzone moisture and mist droplet size. The roots must not be too dry, nor may they show appreciable amounts of condensation. There are other factors involved such as the plant not being stressed by temperatures or nutritional issues, etc. So far, this perfect environment is mainly only achieved with a high pressure setup which includes nozzles capable of 50 micron average droplet size and mist timings controlled tightly through the use of an accumulator, solenoid(s) and cycle timer capable of sub 1 second resolution OR with an air atomized setup with similar control. When the root hairs form is when the real fun and benefits become evident with HPA. Among which include: tighter intranodular lengths, increased growth rate and yield, and the ability to significantly lower ec and therefore run drain to waste economically which really simplifies things in regards to ph and nutes. If you're interested, read my thread from the start, follow some of the posted links that are where I got my info from, and you'll begin to get the idea here. One of the main issues I saw from the single photo of your setup I was able to view, is that you have the roots in small diameter vertical tubes. This would not allow the mist to spread out and expand properly to create the right environment for them. Don't get me wrong- your setup is a viable way to grow, and probably yielded good results, but it still falls short of the environment I am trying to create here. There is very little good information on proper HPA, and I have dug very deep to find the answers and mentors I chose to follow. Perhaps you came here to offer knowledge, and will end up gaining some for yourself too. Let me know what you think...

Edit: the link for the prv doesn't work- please repost, and I am not sure why you'd use a 3 prong plug on it as they are usually strictly a plumbing device without any electrical connections. -Perhaps you meant to say solenoid?

greenandmean said:

i thought you may be interested in this trichy i am setting up a true hpa system with expansion tank,regulators,pressure switch etc etc

but i am also design a system for a mate still in the hpa but doing away with the expansion tank as he does not want one,,so i was thinking about incorparating some ball check valve to stop water from draining back into the res tank when the pump is off and to keep the line pressurized for when the pump kicks in to hopefully give it an instant shot of spray.. ive played around with some check valves spring pressure and have come up with some designs to make them open at 80psi...im going to put a hp water pump rated at 125psi.. i really dont know if this will work but hey its worth a shot, a problem i already see is going to be the constant stopping and starting of the pump but its the orders i have from him lol... well if it works it will be another way of doing hpa so fingers crossed any constructive criticism would be good

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There are a lot of misconceptions regarding HPA. So far, I have completed 4 grows using the same Aquatec 8800 (very quiet) cycling 1-3 seconds every 2-3 minutes; 24/7- So much for the pump myth.

I use atomized mist heads with 1/4" tubing (short runs) and have my rez higher than the pump to minimize drain back. The 1/4" maximizes pressure build up- virtually no spittle before or after.

My timer is a Sentinel MDT-1 not accurate at 1 second, but if your pod is 25-30G it is sufficient.

With the help of several 'True" HPA growers here and on other sites, I finally got HPA type roots (think cotton candy) and root hairs. No accumulator, no solenoids, no pressure switches/gauges.

Not that I am in any way a hater, but realistically, how much more can I expect with an accumulator?

hth

PetFlora said:

With the help of several 'True" HPA growers here and on other sites, I finally got HPA type roots (think cotton candy) and root hairs. No accumulator, no solenoids, no pressure switches/gauges.
Not that I am in any way a hater, but realistically, how much more can I expect with an accumulator?
hth

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If your HPA roots dont sport prolific root hairs from the get go, theres room for improvement

Yes, what I get from what I've seen from your pics petflora, actually pushes me towards wanting an accumulator (I mean that respectfully). I've seen the debates in the past and am not here to engage in that, but simply acknowledge that you have worked very dilligently, and probably put alot more work into your system than I will. In the end, you have had alot of trouble keeping root hairs, and the pics I've seen so far aren't the same as the other accumulator based ones I've seen only in regards to roots. This is perfectly fine, and I am by no means trying to strike at your ego or claim overall inferiority- your actual plants look very nice and healthy topside. I am just on a mission to have the best root hairs I can have, with the least amount of maintenance to keep them. It's debateable, but wouldn't you say by now that you've spent a couple hundred on all the little mods you've made to try to gain tighter control over the mist? That's all one would spend to add an accumulator and the extra bits associated with it. All that matters is that one is happy with the results of their setup, and for me I know that means an accumulator. I also appreciate you setting me straight on the pump, I have read otherwise by others including Pod's thread- but I think the Aquatec from reptile basics is specifically made for the abuse. Anyone chosing to not use an accumulator would do good to follow your work indeed, because you have been working very hard at that style for quite a while now, and no doubt have lots of experience in that slightly different approach.

Edit: perhaps it would be good to post a couple side by side root pic comparisons, so people following the thread can see any similarities or differences. Feel free to post a couple pics you consider a good representation of your results, and I will copy a couple from another thread of some accumulator based system roots. Not as a showdown, but just in the name of a good comparitive study so people can decide for themselves what they want... Would you be up for that?

Trichy Bastard said:

You're totally fine here r0m....

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Thanks, everyone has their own thoughts on whats appropriate in their thread.

Trichy Bastard said:

what type of timer are you using may I ask- I'm just curious what sort of control you'll have over the mist.

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The one in the picture is a DIG5006-IP It has 1 second on intervals and 1 minute off intervals up to 5 min. I don't think it is going to be adequate. I've designed and bread-boarded a PIC based timer that will give me 0-127 period intervals for on and off with 2 selectable period durations, I can set each of the two periods to whatever I want by changing a constant defined in the code. I'm in the process of drawing the schematic to make sure I get the parts right before I order them. It should run about $25-30 for the parts. One of the things I'm wondering about is the minimum realistic period achievable, you have some amount of time for the water to travel, the relay response time and the solenoid response time, these can easily reach 50ms so is .1 second really achievable?

Trichy Bastard said:

what I got out of Cavadge's thread- was that the 5 gal buckets aren't big enough

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I thought he grew some pretty nice plants, the roots weren't the truly fluffy HPA type though and we didn't really get to see any of his later grows, he just sort of fell of the face of the earth. With the proper adjustments who knows what's possible.

Trichy Bastard said:

so if you're really considering those other bins perhaps you should change it up now.

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I'm thinking about them but have a few issues to work through. They have an irregular shaped bottom so building the root barrier could be a problem. and they are 17.5 inches wide. that doesn't leave me enough room for the condensate pump to remove the waste water without giving up another 4-5 inches of height. It's always a series of compromises with a cabinet.

0.1 sec timer setting = 0.3 sec actual misting pulse length for me

Im still doing Hpa.I just switched up a lot of things ill post pics of my current setup.I have a jet pump running at 60 PSI.right now I have a 4x8 table and 5 gallons buckets flipped upside down with a 2 inch hole on the bottom side.yea I totally scraped the tubes no room for the mist affect.the only thing I wanna switch up is the jet pump want to be pushing at least 100psi.as for that I would have to make the pump setup with accumalator and stronger pump.ill post some pics later.of my current setup.

Thats a great looking CAB r0m30, have to decided which light to go with? Also I think you might be better off making a root chamber to fit your space. You can take advantage of the full size of the lower part of the flower portion. maybe something like polyethylene, acrylic or even a peice of 6 mil poly drapped over a pvc frame with a top.

Hey r0m30 you mess with c+ or c++ ?

r0m30- Yes it seems that there are some obvious mechanical delays involved- but the reason I was thinking of the finer resolution was also for accuracy in the cycle timer. You figure if it has +-3% accuracy for example- on a one second timer would be 3/10 of a second, while on a 1/10 second timer would be very unnoticeable. I'm assuming a resulotion of .5 second is probably ok as long as it's fairly accurate at that timing. The problem was that I was looking into a drt-1 timer that goes down to a single second resolution, unfortunately I've heard reports from people including petflora that it is not very accurate at that level. I looked into making my own timer but decided the 100 bucks for a ready made model was worth it, especially since I wasn't sure what the final adjustment would be for my application- and I'm not as proficient in electronics as I'd need to be. Good for you if you can make one.

Cavadge had some nice results in his thread, but I think they could have been even better in the roots. Like It's been said- even nft can produce nice plants... I'm just hell bent on the fuzzies-lol. It's too bad he disappeared, he was a good writer and interesting person, his building/engineering skills were admirable- I really liked the guy. Atomizer and tree farmer seem to "know what's possible" when everything is dialed in- I'm trying to follow their lead as closely as possible.

There are other containers available with smoother bottoms (I assume you mean the lower parts of the WALLS are irregular- as the bottom being a bit bumpy could be fixed by just elevating the screen over the top of the highest bumps. Perhaps you could consider having a drain hole in the bottom that empties somewhere by gravity, then you can decide if it needs to be pumped from that container. It's sort of what Cav did with the "bucket in a bucket". The flow should be quite small given the mist is properly dialed in. Even a couple drill holes in the bottom with a bucket underneath could be manually tossed once a day or so. I realize you have the confines of the cabinet to deal with, but a hose can be routed to drain to somewhere external.

bigsmoker2 said:

Im still doing Hpa.I just switched up a lot of things ill post pics of my current setup.I have a jet pump running at 60 PSI.right now I have a 4x8 table and 5 gallons buckets flipped upside down with a 2 inch hole on the bottom side.yea I totally scraped the tubes no room for the mist affect.the only thing I wanna switch up is the jet pump want to be pushing at least 100psi.as for that I would have to make the pump setup with accumalator and stronger pump.ill post some pics later.of my current setup.

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Cool man, it seems your getting it through trial and error. I've recently been told by a veteran that even the 5 gallon buckets are going to yield less than perfect results, but they are definitely a step in the right direction. If you hang around here, there are some people who've been doing this a long time and know what does/doesn't work through lots of their own experimentation. I have even less real life experience than you, but I'm hoping to jump over as much initial errors as possible by learning from the pros. Guess we'll see...

Atomizer said:

0.1 sec timer setting = 0.3 sec actual misting pulse length for me

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Yes, and I'll bet everyone here's system will be different, tubing length, regulated pressure, number and style of misters all play a role. It's just got me thinking about "standard" misting times and that there really isn't one.

Kdn said:

Thats a great looking CAB r0m30, have to decided which light to go with? Also I think you might be better off making a root chamber to fit your space. You can take advantage of the full size of the lower part of the flower portion. maybe something like polyethylene, acrylic or even a peice of 6 mil poly drapped over a pvc frame with a top.

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Thanks, it will look a LOT better with some ladies growing in it. I'm thinking LED for the lighting, the HSS PPF800 is what I'm leaning towards TODAY. The root chamber is the real issue for me I like those tubs I linked to earlier but have space issues. I may take a trip to one of the stores with a tape measure and see just how they might fit, if they are shaped similar to the smaller ones I may just have enough room to fit it and the condensate pump in there, but all hell will break loose if I have an issue with the pump.
If the CA MMJ law wasn't written to fully comply with the full employment act for lawyers I could probably do a SOG style in one of those and not worry about losing the 4-5 inches to put the condensate pump completely under the bin, but with the 6 mature AND/OR (WTF does AND/OR mean in a legal sense?????) 12 immature plants wording I'm staying at 6 plants so even the dumbest LEO or DA will recognize they won't get anywhere with a prosecution.

hammer21 said:

Hey r0m30 you mess with c+ or c++ ?

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It depends, for the microprocessors I use assembler, for Windows and Mac I use C/C++ and when I work it's a mixture of SAS and assembler with a smattering of COBOL, Rexx and Perl.

Trichy Bastard said:

r0m30- Yes it seems that there are some obvious mechanical delays involved- but the reason I was thinking of the finer resolution was also for accuracy in the cycle timer. You figure if it has +-3% accuracy for example- on a one second timer would be 3/10 of a second, while on a 1/10 second timer would be very unnoticeable. I'm assuming a resulotion of .5 second is probably ok as long as it's fairly accurate at that timing. The problem was that I was looking into a drt-1 timer that goes down to a single second resolution, unfortunately I've heard reports from people including petflora that it is not very accurate at that level. I looked into making my own timer but decided the 100 bucks for a ready made model was worth it, especially since I wasn't sure what the final adjustment would be for my application- and I'm not as proficient in electronics as I'd need to be. Good for you if you can make one.

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Sure unless your using a quartz crystal your going to have an error, 3-5% is about average for most applications, and yes x% of 1/10 of a second is smaller that x % of one second but the error is still the same, it's just less perceptible on a human scale, and if you end up using 9 or 10 1/10ths of a second you still have about the same error because you have that x% for every 1/10 of a second. I originally decided on purchasing as well that's why I have the DIG instead of a bunch of pieces but I have decided that building one will be the best long term option and I can build one for VEG, one for Flower and a spare for about $80 and a quality afternoon with a soldering iron. I know just enough electronics to be dangerous, I've let the magic blue smoke out of more than a few chips. BTW 3/10 of a second would be 30% not 3% but I do get your point.

Trichy Bastard said:

Cavadge had some nice results in his thread, but I think they could have been even better in the roots. Like It's been said- even nft can produce nice plants... I'm just hell bent on the fuzzies-lol. It's too bad he disappeared, he was a good writer and interesting person, his building/engineering skills were admirable- I really liked the guy. Atomizer and tree farmer seem to "know what's possible" when everything is dialed in- I'm trying to follow their lead as closely as possible.

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I know that the HPA root structure is optimal and I would certainly like to get there, but this approach has the benefits of lower day to day maintenance, reasonable nutrient costs, low water consumption and low energy consumption (I think being in HI you may be one of the few people who pay more for electricity than we do in CA), and it's quiet on top of all of that if you are careful in your component selection. I'm on the path towards HPA roots but getting all of the other benefits is good enough so I can walk slowly on that part of the journey if I have to.

Trichy Bastard said:

There are other containers available with smoother bottoms (I assume you mean the lower parts of the WALLS are irregular- as the bottom being a bit bumpy could be fixed by just elevating the screen over the top of the highest bumps. Perhaps you could consider having a drain hole in the bottom that empties somewhere by gravity, then you can decide if it needs to be pumped from that container. It's sort of what Cav did with the "bucket in a bucket". The flow should be quite small given the mist is properly dialed in. Even a couple drill holes in the bottom with a bucket underneath could be manually tossed once a day or so. I realize you have the confines of the cabinet to deal with, but a hose can be routed to drain to somewhere external.

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Yes, I did mean the walls are irregular. I want to keep everything in the CAB if at all possible, even though I have a MMJ recommendation it's still not prudent to let everyone know you have a pot farm in your office. I am working on a bucket in bucket type solution for that bigger container but it really depends on being able to keep the condensate pump and waste water collection inside the CAB as I said that's one of my primary design objectives.

BTW, my PRV came in the mail today, thanks again for that find. Have you adjusted yours yet? I'm assuming that the phillips screw in the inlet is the adjustment but am not really sure. If it is it's not a very adjustment friendly design.

The cabinet has been cycling at 1 second/ 1 minute for about 24 hours and everything looks good so far

r0m- in regards to led lights, check out post #607 here: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/418071-irish-boys-2011-spectra-led-2.html
Irishboy seems to have great results with led lighting and seems very excited about these new ones that just became available. He grows in 100-110 degree temps at times (almost unbelieveable) and still pulls buds the size of his forearm- it's pretty interesting to me. Thanks for the correction on the timer innacuracy- hehe. The prv is in with the jg fittings that have not arrived yet- but I beleive that screw should make it adjustable as much as you like- I think the specs said adjustable from 0-150 psi. -of course you'll need a gauge in line to tell what you getting. You sound resourceful and knowledgable- I'm sure if you think it about it enough all the pieces will come together for you in your design. Hehe- I just had to laugh that your cab is in your office- wonder how many people will walk by unknowing of the treasures inside...

PetFlora said:

Pod Size v Timer: When I was having problems with seeing root hairs Atomizer helped a great deal. I had been using an 18 Gallon pod which was too small for aone second burst and 2 mist heads. Within a few days of switching to a 30G pod the root hairs appeared.

Extrapolating: If you have a large enough pod one second is fine, but in a small pod a one second mist over saturates the roots. Taking it further: 5G buckets probably need like 0.25-0.3 seconds max. Getting a timer that can do that costs money for most of us.

hth

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Good Points Petflora, matter of fact it's been established that even if the timer was capable of such small times, the mechanical delays and fluid dynamics can make for longer minimum spray cycles than that, not to mention the small space doesn't allow the mist to spread out evenly, therefore calling a need for 2 nozzles to get proper coverage. Then your talking an impossible 1/10 of a second timing or maybe even worse. Just my guess... It's a good point you bring up however- that if you can't get your cycle timings any lower, you can always compensate with a larger volume chamber, up to the point where coverage then becomes an issue. It seems like it's a delicate balance, and anyone pursuing this should really take into consideration all of these details before spending money on a design that was not calculated out beforehand.

Atomizer said:

Hi Trichy
The ideal target is <1ml per 100L of chamber volume per misting, maintaining a droplet size range of 5-80 microns with full coverage. The challenging part is staying below the mist saturation point using the only variable you have to work with.. the timing. There`s a very good chance the timer wont go low enough so you may have to settle for something less than perfect and resort to altering to pause timing to compensate but its not ideal.

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This is am important bit of info Atomizer posted here a while back, I thought it good to bring it back up again since we've been talking about mist chamber sizing and saturation... Armed with this knowledge, you can decide how many mist nozzles your chamber might need based on the nozzle's spray pattern, and then you can take the nozzle's listed theoretical flowrate and multiply by the amount of nozzles decided on. Once having the total flowrate per second of all the nozzles combined, you can figure out how much theoretical timing it would take to meet the preferred <1ml per 100l of chamber volume. I don't know if Atomizer got this info from somewhere else, or discovered it by his own trial and error, but it sure is nice having a guideline to start by. Thanks again Atomizer!

Thanks for reposting that TB, that little piece of vital information should help me find a starting point for tuning my table. If I have done my math right the chamber is about 930liters, so I should be aiming for about 8-9ml in a single misting. I can run 6 nozzels at @ 1 second to achieve this, and just thinking about the size this seems to "feel" right to me but I will have to play with it and see.