True HP Aero For 2011

Thanks TB got the PM and found the other stuff. How loud is the flojet or have you tried it yet? I wrote reptile basics to get the specs on the pump psi rating for the aquatec 8800.

hammer21 said:

Hello Trichy you are right to much of a good thing is deadly!!!!!!!!!! I plan on using a small amout of pure oxygen in the mix and will get a oxygen monitor for testing pod and room NEVER try this without the right equipment and knowledge on what will and can happen.

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Ok man- wish u luck in your particular approach. I'm gonna focus on just getting hpa down before I try anything else. There are a few new variables to be working with already, and I'm going to take a paced, methodical approach. It will be interesting to compare our builds and results in the coming weeks and months- as we can all build off eachothers ideas and experiences...

kmbud said:

Thanks TB got the PM and found the other stuff. How loud is the flojet or have you tried it yet? I wrote reptile basics to get the specs on the pump psi rating for the aquatec 8800.

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I touched the wired to my vehicle battery momentarily just because the curiosity was killing me. It wasn't too bad- but I read it will get louder under pressure. I'd think it's not horribly bad- but just that the aquatechs are nearly silent. Either way it will not be hard to build a sound deadening chamber for the pump if necessary- mine being outside will probably not be an issue for me personally. If you size the accumulator big enough- it will only need to come on every few days or longer- and in that case you could just manually turn it on to top up the pressure during a good time of day for the noise.

Just wondering if you were going to do a step by step (with Pics) build of your system?

Destroy The Autobots said:

Just wondering if you were going to do a step by step (with Pics) build of your system?

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Well, more or less the first posts explain the bulk of this. There are also links to a couple other threads that are pretty detailed in the build- especially Cavadge's (he has got some mad building skills). All the info I've put into this thread is literally from hundreds of hours of reading and research, it's been quite an adventure. I intend to put the system together and take pics along the way, but not sure if it would be a complete step- by -step. It would definitely be enough info to copy if you were to follow the thread and resources, however... This probably sounds cliche- but if someone needed even more hand holding then what I've done by trying to extract and concentrate what I've gathered- they probably wouldn't be suited for this type of growing anyway... If you want to do this- there's just no way around needing to do a bit of research and learning- but in the end it will really help because you'll understand the hows and whys of the system, and be familiar enough to service it or make any necessary tweaks for your situation. I'm happy to help answer any individual questions along the way from my own understanding of it all though, and there are others lurking about who have been growing this way for years now and seem quite happy to help anyone who is humble enough to take their advice...

I have a question to throw out there for anyone that might be more knowledgable on the subject than me. I have decidedly gone with all 12v components so that I don't have to worry about mixing high voltage and water- and that my system could be ran off a battery independent of the unreliable electric company where I live. I understand that a deep cycle battery is better in most situations, but I could easily obtain a cheap car battery instead. I know in a situation where the battery is to be charged and drained significantly on a regular basis- the deep cycle is the way to go. But I got to thinking that my pump will likely only run for a few minutes every few days, and the trickle charger will be on it all the time. This sounds more like the type of situation a car battery would work in. Would a car battery fail too soon under these conditions? I did pay extra for a smart charger that will prevent overcharging and what not... The reason I ask is because other than car batteries, I either can get a very expensive deep cycle marine battery, or have to have a 12v battery shipped from amazon or something- and it gets kind of expensive with the shipping...

Its really a matter of picking a maxium outage time then estimating if the battery's amphr rating is enough (no less then 50% discharge on a car battery or 20% on a deep cycle) as long as you dont discharge a battery too much it will last quite well. If you need more capacity add another battery in parallel, or for another option 2 6v deep cycles in series.

Kdn said:

Its really a matter of picking a maxium outage time then estimating if the battery's amphr rating is enough (no less then 50% discharge on a car battery or 20% on a deep cycle) as long as you dont discharge a battery too much it will last quite well. If you need more capacity add another battery in parallel, or for another option 2 6v deep cycles in series.

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Thanks Kdn- that was sort of what I was thinking. I should only barely drain the battery being on for 4-5 minutes at 9 amps every few days. I'll try the car battery because it's the cheapest and easiest. Even if only it lasts for a year or 2 I'd be happy... The solenoids and timer's draw are barely anything too.

Stay away from 12v pumps, Most pressure switches cant handle the increased amps and fail much quicker. If you want security in the event of power failure. Tee a 12v into your accumulator with a battery and a tender, just be sure to add a check valve between the pump and system. Stick with 110v and just don't clean it with a garden hose...

aerojunkie said:

Stay away from 12v pumps, Most pressure switches cant handle the increased amps and fail much quicker. If you want security in the event of power failure. Tee a 12v into your accumulator with a battery and a tender, just be sure to add a check valve between the pump and system. Stick with 110v and just don't clean it with a garden hose...

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Thanks... I kinda figured 12v @9amp creates a similar electron flow as 120v @1.5 amp. (I'm sure the watts are about the same). I really don't know if it will make a difference- but I already purchased everything 12v. Luckily my pressure switch was only 26 bucks- so I'll just keep a spare on hand in case...

aerojunkie said:

Stay away from 12v pumps, Most pressure switches cant handle the increased amps and fail much quicker. If you want security in the event of power failure. Tee a 12v into your accumulator with a battery and a tender, just be sure to add a check valve between the pump and system. Stick with 110v and just don't clean it with a garden hose...

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Its highly unlikely the switch will fail. If you`re worried about the contacts wearing out ..simply wire the pressure switch to the 12v pump via a 12v 30A automotive relay (dirt cheap). Stay away from 110v. pumps.. they will fail in a power outage.

Atomizer said:

Its highly unlikely the switch will fail. If you`re worried about the contacts wearing out ..simply wire the pressure switch to the 12v pump via a 12v 30A automotive relay (dirt cheap). Stay away from 110v. pumps.. they will fail in a power outage.

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Good advice- best of both worlds...

you may have better luck with aquatech or a remote pressure switch, but 4 of my 7 shurflo 12v pumps are sitting in a box with failed contacts. Shurflo wouldnt warranty any of them stating the pumps all have a cycle life expectancy. Im sure this is the case for 110 as well, however my 110 pumps are lasting much longer than the 2+- weeks the 12v held up for. 12v pumps are my reason for switching to air atomized, that and the fact that i can replace 20+ nozzles/chamber with 1 nozzle if desired... I recommend 2.

Best of luck to you - and don't be afraid to spend it...

P.S. Scratch the check valve in my first post and just set the pressure switch to cycle on @ 70 and off @ 90... Just remember that most, if not all, HP diaphragm pumps WILL NOT self-prime with back pressure.

Most onboard pressure switches are usually cheap junk. Buy a good quality external pressure switch, short the onboard switch and the pumps will get a new lease of life
Do you have the air-atomized system up and running?

yes, an external pressure switch is pretty much a requirement in these systems, however, I am still using the oem switch with an external on hand for a backup. Im still having good results on the 110v. Anyone building an atomized aeroponic system should understand that there is always room for failure, no matter what component is being considered... I'm a firm believer that no technology will ever replace responsible monitoring and a plethora of spare parts. I feel the main reason these systems are so expensive is because to do it appropriately you need to have enough components to build 2-3 of the same system.

My system is up and running, Im just ironing out some ripples... I just ordered new heads for my peristaltic pumps as they were slightly overshooting the parameters my reservoir controllers were set to. Im running dual 55 gal reservoirs (veg/flower), I plan on increasing the capacity which will work for my original heads, but for the time being I needed to downsize.

TB - Im going to have to apologize, but I have not read your whole thread... Will you be inducing co2?

aerojunkie said:

you may have better luck with aquatech or a remote pressure switch, but 4 of my 7 shurflo 12v pumps are sitting in a box with failed contacts. Shurflo wouldnt warranty any of them stating the pumps all have a cycle life expectancy. Im sure this is the case for 110 as well, however my 110 pumps are lasting much longer than the 2+- weeks the 12v held up for. 12v pumps are my reason for switching to air atomized, that and the fact that i can replace 20+ nozzles/chamber with 1 nozzle if desired... I recommend 2.

Best of luck to you - and don't be afraid to spend it...

P.S. Scratch the check valve in my first post and just set the pressure switch to cycle on @ 70 and off @ 90... Just remember that most, if not all, HP diaphragm pumps WILL NOT self-prime with back pressure.

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Thanks for the input aerojunkie. I am curious about your setup myself- feel free to describe it in as much detail as you want to. I am planning to bypass the pump's onboard pressure switch for a (hopefully) better quility and adjustable external one. Not sure where your pressure setting advice comes from. My accumulator and pump both are spec'd up to 150 psi- so I plan to cut in around 110psi and out around 140psi. (Was thinkin I might as well use the capabilities of the equipment) as I specifically looked for higher pressure rated components. I would not stand for a pump only lasting 2 weeks. Even though the manufacturer notes a certain life expectancy- 2 weeks is rediculous and I'd think even they would also agree. You'd think that a manufacturer of a 12v pump would build a product that could work in the 12v conditions it was made for- but perhaps since shureflo pumps are so noisy I wonder if they are lower quality anyway. There is a self priming rating on my pump of 8 feet, which I assume can be converted to about 3.5 psi. I plan to have things set up in a way that the pump will not regularly intake any air- but I am still unclear without actually testing things if the 10" 1 micron cartridge filter I have will work on the inlet side of the pump. When I blew through the filter I encountered no resistance to my lungs- although I suspect water will be a different story as it's density and surface tension will undoubtedly make a difference.
The failed contacts you speak of are likely in the pumps included pressure switch. If you were to cut the wire and bypass it- I would expect the pump to function again. Then you could get a remote pressure switch like I mentioned above and make use of those pumps again.

aerojunkie said:

TB - Im going to have to apologize, but I have not read your whole thread... Will you be inducing co2?

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No worries man, I appreciate anyone's interest at any level. I am in the tropics and plan to give the outdoors a go- so co2 will not be possible. The summer temps will regularly reach 95f or so, humidity averages 60-80% and there are constant trade winds- also I am at sea level for ambient co2 purposes. I will have to see what all this translates into and how I will deal with it. I'm thinking to add a few drops of chlorine to my nutes and don't know if a little extra potassium would benefit transpiration in my situation, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

BTW- dual 55 gallon res's are huge for hpa- are you running drain to waste?

Your correct, the pumps are fine and will continue to function with a replacement or external pressure switches, There are other reasons I stay with 110. My oil less compressor runs on 220 so if power goes out Im at a loss either way. There are advantages as well as disadvantages with any set-up, its up to the designer to utilize whats best for his/her circumstances.

Here are a couple of concerns I would consider...

First, why is your filter located before your pump? I imagine you are not recycling your nutes? The main reason you would need a filter is for the precipitation of the salts which in your case would come after the accumulator.

Second, The higher the pressures you utilize, the more likely your nutes will precipitate... Why are you running your lines above 100 psi? What are your nozzles rated @? Have they been tested for micron size? IF so, they were probably tested @ no more than 7 bar. Chances are if you run @ higher pressures than the manufacturer recommends you will be decreasing your droplet size well below 50 micron.

Run your filter after your accumulator... you may or may not be able to run it before your solenoid. A 1 micron filter is definitely overkill for most nozzles, If your concerned about protecting your pumps, run a small 200 mesh filter prior to your pump You wont restrict flow as much and frankly the 1 micron is unnecessary.

Lower your pressures if possible to prevent precipitation. Its great to have higher rated equipment in any case but if you have a 150 psi pump and the switch fails, it is possible to wake the neighbors when your accumulator explodes.

Do not at anytime allow air to enter the intake of your pump.

My system is not easy to describe in detail but to be brief...

Nute Delivery
8x4x3 polystyrene chambers custom made DTW w/ 2 nozzles/chamber
4 cylinder oil less compressor for air atomization
shurflo pumps and ss accumulators for fluid supply,
55 gal dual res with automated nutrient and PH control for both veg and Flower

Lighting
108"x42"x12" sealed SS hoods with dual spectrum lighting & 10" air cooled vents with dampers. approximately 2400 watts each I can increase wattage up to 12,000 watts each in any spectrum if I desire (which would be completely unnecessary but the options are limitless). They raise and lower using a controlled gear reduction drive and electric motor.

Nutes
home mixed DTW formula with both macro and micro nutes and no added unnecessary buffers.

Misc
Propane Co2 generator, dehumidifiers, AC units, fans, timers, pumps, etc.

It could be argued, but I would add hydrogen peroxide rather than chlorine. Yes I run DTW, but the larger my res is, the less likely my controllers will overshoot parameters.

The reason I ask about co2 is because as great as this system is, you will be unable to utilize it to its full potential. Dont get me wrong, The fact that it can be ran efficiently DTW is reason enough to utilize Aero in any circumstance, however your system is only going to be as strong as your weakest element... I.E. lighting, co2, PH, Nutrient solution, o2 absorption (which you wont lack), temp, humidity, etc. Aero is a perfect delivery system for perfect environments. In my opinion best suited and utilized in laboratory like conditions.

Where most individuals fall short is in their ability to progress past the nutrient delivery system itself. Like yourself, they use an optimum system in less than optimal conditions... Granted, this probably makes no difference to you, because chances are you enjoy the building/tinkering aspect of your project. This type of enjoyment alone should be more than sufficient to keep any true aero gardener satisfied. I commend your drive to utilize the system where you can but I imagine it wont be long before a desire to obtain perfection lands you indoors.

Sounds like a very intense setup you have there, nice. I should have mentioned that I will have a pressure release valve for catastrophic safety. I will also employ a pressure regulator set @100psi before the solenoids (I intend to place a solenoid at each nozzle (biocontrols .04 gpm). I originally thought h2o2, but read somewhere that chlorine would have more residual killing power- guess I'll experiment with both. You do have a point about the precipitation and likely need for the filter after the accumulator- I was just thinking to protect the pump and tank against any foreign matter from the winds debris here- also the fliter housing is only rated for 125 psi - I know 1 micron is overkill, but thought if it allowed a decently unimpeded flow- then why not.

Questions-
1) why bother with the peristaltic pump and controller setup with DTW? (perhaps you have a much larger scale op then I was thinking).
2) Your lighting sounds interesting- is it plasma? Or how can you increase the wattage and change the spectrum so greatly like you mentioned?
3) What brand of compressor are you running, or is it diy?

One last thing about the peristaltic pump heads- if the're like the ones I'm familiar with -you might be able to get away with replacing the surgical tubing inside to restore their precision.

As for your last post- you are correct in alot of points- I do like the building/tinkering aspect, and I think that real equatorial sunlight should be quite helpful without bearing the burdon of the high electric costs here- will it outweigh not having c02?-I don't know. One thing I'm sure of is 12/12 light throughout the year already puts me at a disadvantage from the veg point of view- I might end up a little soggy whether I like it or not