True HP Aero For 2011

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r0m30

Active Member
PetFlora said:
Question to anyone cloning. Do you clone in HPA, and if so what W/D cycles do you use? I find I have to use a bubbler until I get a golf ball size root ball, otherwise I have to run my wet cycle way too long, creating spaghetti roots and requiring considerably more nutes per day.I recycle during early veg, but it's still a PITA.
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I plan on cloning in a HPA cloner, the only successful one I've seen documented is Cav's. His cycles were:
Fresh cuttings - 15 secs on, 2.5 mins off
Roots emerge - 5 secs on, 3 mins off
Roots developed to where veg growth begins - 2.5 secs on, 5 mins off

And he was able to move them to flower in three weeks.

See post #3 for his cycles.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
r0m30 said:
I plan on cloning in a HPA cloner, the only successful one I've seen documented is Cav's. His cycles were:
Fresh cuttings - 15 secs on, 2.5 mins off
Roots emerge - 5 secs on, 3 mins off
Roots developed to where veg growth begins - 2.5 secs on, 5 mins off

And he was able to move them to flower in three weeks.

See post #3 for his cycles.
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Thanks R0m. Interesting to see how others skin the cat. His is really a bubbler on hpa steroids- not a bad thing. If you use a 4 mist head assembly from Reptile Basics you only need to drill one 3/4 inch hole (flat bit) above the water line. Insert the assembly (arms & heads swivel) from the inside, tighten down with locking collar on the outside, add an elbow if you need it, connect to pump and you are done. I couldn't really tell from his picture, but you could put a 1/4" bulkhead fitting down low on the bubbler and recirculate directly back to the pump. Sweet. Not sure you need the pump, though. My DIY bubbler is small 6-8 2" net pots pushed into 1.5" PVC couplers. Elite 801 twin bubbler and 2 Large Sunleave Oxy stones (cylinder). I use it successfully to root seedlings; haven't tried cloning but it should work.

Oh, IMHO he has left these plants in there too long. I do not develop root hairs until I transfer max of 4 plants into a large pod (33G) with w/d cycles ~ 2:2-3. hth
 
R

r0m30

Active Member
PetFlora said:
Thanks R0m. Interesting to see how others skin the cat. His is really a bubbler on hpa steroids- not a bad thing. If you use a 4 mist head assembly from Reptile Basics you only need to drill one 3/4 inch hole (flat bit) above the water line. Insert the assembly (arms & heads swivel) from the inside, tighten down with locking collar on the outside, add an elbow if you need it, connect to pump and you are done. I couldn't really tell from his picture, but you could put a 1/4" bulkhead fitting down low on the bubbler and recirculate directly back to the pump. Sweet. Not sure you need the pump, though. My DIY bubbler is small 6-8 2" net pots pushed into 1.5" PVC couplers. Elite 801 twin bubbler and 2 Large Sunleave Oxy stones (cylinder). I use it successfully to root seedlings; haven't tried cloning but it should work.
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Yea kind of, I designed mine with a root barrier to keep the roots out of the solution. I'm using the bottom of the outer bucket as the res, I have a 1/4" grommet at the bottom of the outer bucket that I run the feed line to the prefilter from, no bulkhead required.
PetFlora said:

Oh, IMHO he has left these plants in there too long. I do not develop root hairs until I transfer max of 4 plants into a large pod (33G) with w/d cycles ~ 2:2-3. hth
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I wondered about his timing too, I think it had more to do with his cycle than getting optimum HPA roots.

Your blue text makes it hard to format if you try to intersperse text inside a quote.
 
F

foresakenlion

Active Member
Well I'm sure environment factors in too, but in their micro green set up, which is available for you to view yourself, you can clearly see all the materials used, and the layout.

Ultrasonic fogging works fantastic for establishing clones to the point where you'd want to transfer them to HPA anyway as the droplet sizes can't sustain them in veg, however it's a completely affordable way to get them to the end of the seedling stage.
Though with an HPA, couldn't you just run it 24/7 in the beginning to establish your clones? I'm guessing both are valid and it should really be looked at as a cost performance issue. Of note is the transducers get very hot after long run times, so active cooling, a heat sink of some sort, or simply using a timer to allow the water to dissipate the heat are recommended should you go this route.
 
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foresakenlion

Active Member
Gentlemen I have just encountered this site MistKing, they claim to provide sprayers for zoos, they have complete kits intended for misting reptiles. This is not special. What is special is they have some of the most adjustable sprayers I have ever seen, and they have a zero drip modification, which I have seen you all note as so important, so I thought I would get a second opinion from all of you here, if they pass with flying colors, I think I just found my nozzles.

When I say adjustablle I don't mean PSI, I mean in over 180 degrees, meaning you could train them on the roots as they develop dynamically or you could adjust them in different patterns for different sized plants and planting patterns. I also found John Guest fittings that are curved instead of elbows, if it works like air flow, then an elbow steals a lot of your energy
http://www.mistking.com/
 
R

r0m30

Active Member
Those look a lot like the ones from reptile basics that PetFlora uses. If he/she doesn't chime in maybe a PM?
 
F

foresakenlion

Active Member
They're very similar to the ones on Reptile Basics, except, there is no claim of zero drip involved on that side, the manifolds are more expensive, but I don't believe the Basics version can swivel, or be adjusted like these. As an update on the topic, I dug deeper into their site and they say they emit 50 microns, with a nice scale chart explaining what the different micron ranges are, dry fog, fog, etc.

I have my concerns as I haven't seen what they're made of specifically, and I am a little fascinated as to how I would rig these inline.

Another note they have a timer that claims 1 second accuracy for $29.99, if it's hobby quality, maybe me mentioning it will help someone.

Chennemann that is interesting about trimming your root system, I thought that might be a potential solution to clogged chambers, as the roots are supposed to only feed via the tips anyway, as long as there are the same relative amount of tips left, then all you've lost is the energy it took to grow them.

Mike, to retouch on droplet size, the range is correct as quoted but the specific target as given with AgriHouse's expertise, is 50 um accross all species. Be it Tomato or Cannabis. Everyone else has made that very clear, and since this is all about giving solid advice for me, 50 um for sustained full term growth.

Trichy I've been reading like a mad man and you're so correct, I now know a more proper range according to AgriHouse experts is 3 seconds on for the burst, and I believe three minutes off, or a far more aggressive 1 second on, 1 minute off, which has been mentioned for flowering. You were all so right about the precision of the squirt being so critical, as well as hainvg the mist float down as slowly as possible to encourage the fine root hairs to form as a reaction.

To quote from a press release on their leaf sensor "The DT-02LS has a default timer mode in case the LS-DAQ Interface becomes disconnected or the PC is turned off. The default timer mode is the standard 3 second spray every 3 minutes as mentioned above."

Kmbud if you haven't ordered your nutes already I'd highly suggest you check out hydrobuddy, and the Lucas Formulas as examples for making your own formulations, you can find all the base ingredients in any nutrient product available for far less, provided you're willing to acquire a quality RO unit to pre-filter your water so as to eliminate chemicial reaction with latent particles.

I think one would be very foolish to not exploit the beneficial micros, they will breed on the plants simply because the plants in a symbiotic relationship excrete things they desire. Now one could destroy them continuely with H2O2. But I see no reason to do this unless you're simply using it as a means to avoid algae, but there are other ways to accomplish this, for example barley will prevent algae from growing, perhaps we could micronize it, or encapsulate it in a mesh to keep it out of the pumps and sprayers. my main point is that they're there anyway, they can increase your growth rate by extending your root mass through their myco network, they increase P uptake far beyond what even an aeroponic powered cannabis root can achieve. Actually on this topic Aero seems like the perfect system to colonize your works with beneficials and accelerate their growth as they're aeroobic.
 
PetFlora

PetFlora

Well-Known Member
foresakenlion said:
Well I'm sure environment factors in too, but in their micro green set up, which is available for you to view yourself, you can clearly see all the materials used, and the layout.

Ultrasonic fogging works fantastic for establishing clones to the point where you'd want to transfer them to HPA anyway as the droplet sizes can't sustain them in veg, however it's a completely affordable way to get them to the end of the seedling stage.
Though with an HPA, couldn't you just run it 24/7 in the beginning to establish your clones? I'm guessing both are valid and it should really be looked at as a cost performance issue. Of note is the transducers get very hot after long run times, so active cooling, a heat sink of some sort, or simply using a timer to allow the water to dissipate the heat are recommended should you go this route.
Click to expand...
Reptile Basics type assemblies swivel and articulate- a must unless you over-mist.

For seed starting/cloning I use s DIY small bubbler with Elite 802 twin bubbler + Sunleaves Oxystones- tons of oxygenated bubbles. Worked great for seedlings, haven't cloned in it yet. I suppose one could also toss a fogger in there on a 15 minute timer, maybe 15 min on: 30-45 off, to reduce heat buildup. Will try that next time I clone. hth
 
F

foresakenlion

Active Member
I have a small single unit ultrasonic fogger I can use for a cloner, works beautifully, just need to cycle it off for at least five minutes an hour to allow it to cool.

I'm looking around trying to source parts, found "THERM-X-TROL ST-12 Expansion Tank" it's 150 PSI max, 4.4 g, stainless steel. It is availabe in 3/4 and 1/4 my question is are the relief/regular available in both sizes and if so which should I use to maintain down system pressure? Even if'ts regulated I'm thinking about potential for air pockets.

Also I read about that timer I mentioned above and I wouldn't recommend it from complaints the ATC 422 still seems like the solidest choice I've seen suggested that is capable and know for reliability.
 
boodadood

boodadood

Active Member
foresakenlion said:
I'm looking around trying to source parts, found "THERM-X-TROL ST-12 Expansion Tank" it's 150 PSI max, 4.4 g, stainless steel.
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this tank isnt stainless steel...stainless steel expansion tanks are really expensive...we bought an ASME 150# tank at work, 10 gal stainless and cost us over $5k from wessels...the amtrol is a steel body...doesnt really matter if your worried about wetted parts tho as the bladder and the connection fitting is the only thing that touches the water...and a steel fitting like the one of the thermxtrol is better than a brass fitting found on some

foresakenlion said:
It is availabe in 3/4 and 1/4 my question is are the relief/regular available in both sizes and if so which should I use to maintain down system pressure?
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if its available in the size your plumbing is in, i would just get that...less fittings to use...if you are plumbed correctly there will be no air pockets

foresakenlion said:
Also I read about that timer I mentioned above and I wouldn't recommend it from complaints the ATC 422 still seems like the solidest choice I've seen suggested that is capable and know for reliability.
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ive been looking at both the 422 and a repeat cycle relay from mcmaster, part number 7630K81...its 30 bucks cheaper than the 422 and im pretty sure it does the same thing

just thought i would chime in my 2 cents

rock on

BD
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
boodadood said:
ive been looking at both the 422 and a repeat cycle relay from mcmaster, part number 7630K81...its 30 bucks cheaper than the 422 and im pretty sure it does the same thing
BD
Click to expand...
pretty sure it can operate 1000 times a day, every day for months? ;)
 
F

foresakenlion

Active Member
I'm with Atomizer on this one man, I've seen two timers recommended by people that claim to use them for years, I'm going to go with their claims on this one as they do have some support and the products to me look like what they claim. That in mind it was the Omron or this ATC, the Omron is twice the price, (though that is a damn fine looking timer) Of the two I'd say the Omron is claiming bigger things, it's for industrial automation, they demand ROI, the ATC is a fine timer that can do the 1 sec on 1 minute off and 3 sec on and 3 minutes off that I need to do, to match AgriHouse's established methodology, past that, tweaking can be had.

You're right it isn't Stainless Steel, but it's Steel, so I stand corrected, this is off a page I hunted down for the Amtrol ST-12 Thermxtrol

"Amtrol THERM-X-TROL ST-12 Expansion Tank Features:
• Brass System Connection (In-Line Models) (Stainless Steel Elbow for Vertical Models)
• Deep Drawn Steel Domes for maximum strength & pressure rating
• Rigid Poly-Propylene Liner for Corrosion Resistant Reservoir
• Butyl diaphragm for long life expectancy tested to over 250,000 cycles
• Diaphragm Hoop Ring mechanically grooved for permanent air-tight seal
• Welded Steel Construction
• Brass Air Charge fitting with Protective Plastic Cap for Corrosion Resistance. Brazed for Strength and Maximum Air-Tight Seal

Amtrol THERM-X-TROL ST-12 Expansion Tank General Usage:
• Office Buildings
• Apartment Buildings
• Dormitories
• Elderly Housing
• Extended Care Facilities
• Condominiums/Large Residential
• Food Service (other than Restaurants)
• Laundromats
• Hospitals
• Other General-Use Hot Water Systems

Amtrol THERM-X-TROL ST-12 Expansion Tank Specifications:
• Model Number - ST-12
• Total Volume (gallons) - 4.4
• Diameter (A) - 11"
• Height (B) - 15"
• System Connection - 3/4" NPT
• Materials: Steel shell, polypropylene liner, butyl diaphragm
• System Connection: ST-5, ST-12 = Brass; ST-25V to ST-210V = Stainless Steel
• Maximum Operating Temperature = 200°F
• Maximum Working Pressure = 150 PSIG
• Factory Precharge = 40 PSIG"

For $60 dollars it does the PSI I saw you all complaining about in this range of tanks, so you identified the issue for me, I used you to find out what it was in this area, and then I fixed the problem for the group, I'm not a useless eater in this scenario and consider this some of my payback for you all sharing knowledge.

I'm looking into pumps right now and I ran into a huge steam cleaning surplus sight, called steam brite, they have with respect an aquatec, then a shurflo rated at 170-150 PSI triplex demand pumps, for between $138-127, that isn't the most interesting thing though, on the page they claim that the triplex switching eliminates the kick you guys are talking about in the lines here I'll quote it.

This is from a Flojet, but it's actually talking abou the triplex diaphragm design.

"Flojet Triplex Diaphragm 3526 Series Automatic Water System Pump is a self priming dry running soft, noise absorbing mounts. Features snap-in port fittings and has corrosion resistant materials. Smooth operation without accumulator tank built-in pulsation eliminator."

My question then being is the Triplex the pulsation eliminator? as that's the issue we're all encountering.

Quick question, don't know dick about tanks, where it says system connection brass I know that's bad, can I replace that with stainless steel, if anyone knows throw a dog a bone.

here's the page for the one he's talking about

http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/117/897/=e0r4lw

I can see why it's cheaper, it doesn't have any face controls installed. On top of that I'm looking and maybe I'm missing it but these are single function, we need at bare minimum a dual function timer, it has to know the on and the off at the same time, since they aren't the same thing. I don't know dick about this but it has to be able to have a different setting for on and off.
 
boodadood

boodadood

Active Member
ya r0m pointed that out on the other thread about the timer not being dual function...i thought it mightve worked but im still learnin about all this stuff too...im back on the 422 timer too cuz the mcmaster relays most def do not do the same thing...lol

i wouldnt mess with the tanks fitting...its prolly welded on...there arent many options out there for a stainless tank or even one with a stainless fitting that isnt 10 gallons

what you could do is get the 10 gallon, increase the air charge in the tank from the factory setting (usually 40 psi) to something else, say up to 80 psi...than the tank would take much less than the 10 gallons to reach the optimum pressure...that is assuming of course 10 gallons is too much for you to use

BD
 
R

r0m30

Active Member
boodadood said:
i wouldnt mess with the tanks fitting...its prolly welded on...there arent many options out there for a stainless tank or even one with a stainless fitting that isnt 10 gallons
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The therm-x tanks come in two styles, in-line and stand. The in-line versions have a stainless fitting even in the smaller sizes. My two gallon therm-x has a stainless attachment fitting.

Why mess with the fitting? I attached a 3/4 inch threaded PVC coupler to the tank fitting and put a PVC 3/4 to 1/4 reducer in the other end of the coupler. Then you can use a standard 1/4 NPT 1/4 push-fit JG fitting to attach it to the system.

boodadood said:
what you could do is get the 10 gallon, increase the air charge in the tank from the factory setting (usually 40 psi) to something else, say up to 80 psi...than the tank would take much less than the 10 gallons to reach the optimum pressure...that is assuming of course 10 gallons is too much for you to use
Click to expand...
You usually need to adjust the air charge anyway to accommodate the higher pressures that we run the systems at. Two PSI below the cut in pressure of your differential pressure switch is the recommended setting.

This page gives a pretty easy to understand explanation of how to calculate the amount of water the tank will hold a a given pre-charge.
 
F

foresakenlion

Active Member
Don't be shy to chime in, I'm as much as stranger to actually building one of these as you, and they've all seemed welcoming, and I thank them for that.

Almost no one is interested in this, honestly, it would be awesome if there was any forum with a dedicated section for this.

Ok so a brass connection it's, I never really tried to see if the internal part was coated in some way, I would assume... otherwise they know the brass is going to leech.

I wonder what version this is then because pictures on sites are misleading sometimes. I'll double check and get back to you.

I was just asking because I don't see anything with a non corrosive connection type, that was really my issue not BD's r0m.

Someone noted that, so for Aeroponic at 100 PSI you'd want your cut in pressure set at 98 PSI

Thanks for the link a layman like me needs any computer assisted calculation he can get. Math wasn't my strong suite, just can't hold onto numbers. Just visited, I think you mentioned this on another thread because I've got it bookmarked but thanks again.

I've been trying to source 12V or 120V solenoids, so far the least expensive I've found I'd feel comfortable with are from freshwatersystems, specifically these, I've checked all of these are normally closed, so they should be what we need.

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-1243-electronic-shut-off-solenoid-valve-with-qc-fittings.aspx

Port Szie 1/8" NPT, Enclosure 1/2" FPT, QC 1/4" or 3/8" (+ $2) $27.99

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5859-electronic-shut-off-solenoid-valve-with-qc-fittings.aspx

Port Size 1/4", Enclosure 1/2" FPT, QC 1/4" 3/8" (+ $2), $24.60

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-6013-electronic-shut-off-solenoid-valve-115-volt.aspx

Port Size 1/8", Enclosure 1/2" FPT, QC 1/4", 3/8" (+ $2), $28.99

they also have affordable wire harnesses available here for other people that might use these things later

http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-1225-wire-harness-assy-2-way-divider-11.aspx

11" 2-way divider for Shut Off & Power Source -> Pump

Then it was just brought to my attention if you did go 120VAC you need to use a power supply with molex anyway, so there's additional cost in getting the power supply, on top of the UPS. If anyone knows a good PSU please tell me as this route is starting to cost.

so, it's UPS + PSU + 110-120VAC Solenoids + Cycle Timer + Pump

or ? x 12V Deep Cycle Battery + DC->DC 12V->24V Step Up Converter (Rated) + 24V Solenoids + Timer + Pump + 12V Battery Charger

My question is, where do I find 24V Batteries? If you could then it's

24V Deep Cycle Battery + 24V Solenoids + Cycle Timer + Pump + 24V Charger

The bottom still have the charger plugged into an outlet, so you'll need to GFCI that either way, be it the UPS or the charger plugged in.

John Guest the user is right, hand pump deep cycle is the best combo for energy indepdence and back up, but that route is so expensive for the tools, I believe its expense is only warranted on a much larger setup than mine. If you scale as high as John did though, you might want to look into the centrifugal atomizers, those things are loud but they'd do an above ground pool as a root chamber just fine. Of course John's method I believe could scale just as far, either the right tanks, I mean it's definitely not a limit on that hydrostatic pump he uses. I digress, Thanks for all the help.

Sorry if my posts are long, I'll either read all the posts I'm interested and then rough out what I want to say in notepad, or I use this little app called stickies, that does what it sounds like, so, I usually about 5+ posts worth of replies in one. Makes for long reading.
 
A

Atomizer

Well-Known Member
For 100psi system pressure you`d want the pressure switch set for 100psi and the accumulator air precharge at 98psi. The idea behind the 2psi is to prevent the accumulator from running completely dry before the switch kicks the pump in.
 
R

r0m30

Active Member
foresakenlion said:
Ok so a brass connection it's,
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It doesn't have to be brass, there are tanks available with Stainless, see my post above.

foresakenlion said:
Then it was just brought to my attention if you did go 120VAC you need to use a power supply with molex anyway, so there's additional cost in getting the power supply, on top of the UPS. If anyone knows a good PSU please tell me as this route is starting to cost.

so, it's UPS + PSU + 110-120VAC Solenoids + Cycle Timer + Pump
Click to expand...
Why would you need a PSU, are located outside the US? I would expect a 120VAC pump to come with a cord or be easily wired to a cord. Even if you go the 120VAC route it may be safer to use a wall wart to drive lower voltage solenoids.

Also when referring to lower voltages it wuold be prudent to state AC or DC. for instance the standard Aquatec pumps are 24VAC
 
boodadood

boodadood

Active Member
r0m30 said:
It doesn't have to be brass, there are tanks available with Stainless, see my post above.


Why would you need a PSU, are located outside the US? I would expect a 120VAC pump to come with a cord or be easily wired to a cord. Even if you go the 120VAC route it may be safer to use a wall wart to drive lower voltage solenoids.

Also when referring to lower voltages it wuold be prudent to state AC or DC. for instance the standard Aquatec pumps are 24VAC
Click to expand...
listen to this man, he knows his shat

as im trying to figure out the wiring mess myself, i found it benfecial, as r0m has previously stated, to keep a common voltage between equipment....the pump and switch come at 24 vac....that means the transformer they include turns 120vac into 24vac to power the pump and switch...the 422 timer can also take a 24vac signal (from the switch) and stainless solenoids are readily available in 24vac....so why mess with it if its barely understood in the first place? lol
 
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