Tried my best to fix – Not looking good

3rd Monkey said:
If I may take a crack at your example of a rising ppm. On a fresh flush, you fill with 1.6. After a duration, your EC is at 3.6... There are a couple factors at play. Hence the ph reading.

If you are using a higher ppm tap water, your overall ppm will rise. If your plant drinks more water than nutes from excessive temps, ppm will rise. If you add more nutes to the res, ppm will rise. If you have a salt buildup, ppm will rise. If you have a light leak/temp too high and algae is forming, ppm will rise.

Beyond that, there's not really a way for EC to rise. Your ph reading will start checking off options and lead you to the cure.

A plants health deteriorating is how you rule out that a stable 6.5ph with a 3000ppm is no good. It's just a balancing act.
Click to expand...

Hi 3rd Monkey,

I was actually suggesting if it was a long term trend.

I realize what you're saying, but in all fairness i really think it over complicates things.

Agreed, ph is very important, especially for hydro.

But as far as the waste from soil is concerned, we can't rightly tell what nutrients it needs.

Agreed, that if you're trying to pin point deficiency or toxicity, in relation to a plant's symptoms then waste, and ph readings can give you a really good idea of what's going on.

But it's generally pretty unreliable for soil, because soil is continuously breaking down. It has a high exchange capacity. Too many variables to really know for sure. Amendments, aeration and drainage etc.

I really do believe that unless in a small pot, and only if reading the waste from day 1 can it have any reliability.

My belief in regards to the OP's issue is calcium's being locked out somehow. Going by the accident they had mixing the nutrients, and the symptoms the plant's showing.
Hard for me to believe it's deficiency because of the feed frequency, and being in soil. But more likely lockout due to overfeeding, or lockout due to a low ph, or both.

Still all guess work too, and that was my point.
 
Aussieaceae said:
Hi 3rd Monkey,

I was actually suggesting if it was a long term trend.

I realize what you're saying, but in all fairness i really think it over complicates things.

Agreed, ph is very important, especially for hydro.

But as far as the waste from soil is concerned, we can't rightly tell what nutrients it needs.

Agreed, that if you're trying to pin point deficiency or toxicity, in relation to a plant's symptoms then waste, and ph readings can give you a really good idea of what's going on.

But it's generally pretty unreliable for soil, because soil is continuously breaking down. It has a high exchange capacity. Too many variables to really know for sure. Amendments, aeration and drainage etc.

I really do believe that unless in a small pot, and only if reading the waste from day 1 can it have any reliability.

My belief in regards to the OP's issue is calcium's being locked out somehow. Going by the accident they had mixing the nutrients, and the symptoms the plant's showing.
Hard for me to believe it's deficiency because of the feed frequency, and being in soil. But more likely lockout due to overfeeding, or lockout due to a low ph, or both.

Still all guess work too, and that was my point.
Click to expand...
Calcium isn't being locked out
 
Aussieaceae said:
Hi 3rd Monkey,

I was actually suggesting if it was a long term trend.

I realize what you're saying, but in all fairness i really think it over complicates things.

Agreed, ph is very important, especially for hydro.

But as far as the waste from soil is concerned, we can't rightly tell what nutrients it needs.

Agreed, that if you're trying to pin point deficiency or toxicity, in relation to a plant's symptoms then waste, and ph readings can give you a really good idea of what's going on.

But it's generally pretty unreliable for soil, because soil is continuously breaking down. It has a high exchange capacity. Too many variables to really know for sure. Amendments, aeration and drainage etc.

I really do believe that unless in a small pot, and only if reading the waste from day 1 can it have any reliability.

My belief in regards to the OP's issue is calcium's being locked out somehow. Going by the accident they had mixing the nutrients, and the symptoms the plant's showing.
Hard for me to believe it's deficiency because of the feed frequency, and being in soil. But more likely lockout due to overfeeding, or lockout due to a low ph, or both.

Still all guess work too, and that was my point.
Click to expand...

I can apply it to soil too. Soil is just a buffer. It's no different than hydro except the buffer. Same nutrient requirements needed, same water requirements needed.

Hydro, your res holds the water/feed. Soil, your medium holds the water/feed. Your roots are what adjust the ph around them for uptake as long as you keep the inbound within reason.

I'm not looking to make an argument out of this, though that may be how it appears. I'm simply trying to learn and have this method debunked now. If it is incorrect, I can accept it. However, it works, has been working, and that's how I solve a lot of problems on here.

I KNOW I'm not that smart, so either the system works or I am just very lucky. I NEED to know which. Guess it's an OCD thing lol.
 
Because there hasn't been any Ca added so the levels would be that low any Ca that was unavailable would be insignificant
 
troutfarm said:
Plant info... Northern Lights, 5.5 weeks into flower, LED grow lights, FFOF soil mixed with perlite, 3-gallon fabric pot, water about twice a week, feed every other watering, feed with FF Big Bloom, Tiger Bloom, and Grow Big following their schedule (usually mixing half strength), and added some Cal-Mag at various times to help combat problem below. Also used Great White mycro early on and throughout veg.

So about 3 weeks ago I realized I was making a major amateur mistake with this grow for many weeks. I was adjusting the water ph before adding nutes! Silly mistake. And through later testing it seems that on at least 3 or 4 feedings I most likely had a ph below 6.0, a time or two maybe way lower. When I realized the mistake 3ish weeks ago I immediately went into damage control and flushed with proper ph water, and used cal-mag and light FF nutes to deal with what looked like deficiencies.

I'm still an amateur but the damage from the beginning seemed like a Cal-Mag deficiency, which made sense since my ph was lower than 6.0 a few times putting Calcium and Magnesium outside of root absorption (at least according to a chart indicating which nutrients adsorb best at a given ph range).

So here I am, 5.5 weeks into flower, and although the flowers look pretty decent to me, the fan leaves are decimated and the damage is starting to get into the larger sugar leaves. My question is, now what?? Do I stay the course, water twice a week with nutes every other while keeping ph right and hope she makes it to the end? Or does anyone have any other ideas? Sorry about the long post. I thought I could get this girl back on my own over the past weeks but every time I walk in the room she's a little more beat up. Help please.

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Click to expand...

How's the problem?
 
3rd Monkey said:
I can apply it to soil too. Soil is just a buffer. It's no different than hydro except the buffer. Same nutrient requirements needed, same water requirements needed.

Hydro, your res holds the water/feed. Soil, your medium holds the water/feed. Your roots are what adjust the ph around them for uptake as long as you keep the inbound within reason.

I'm not looking to make an argument out of this, though that may be how it appears. I'm simply trying to learn and have this method debunked now. If it is incorrect, I can accept it. However, it works, has been working, and that's how I solve a lot of problems on here.

I KNOW I'm not that smart, so either the system works or I am just very lucky. I NEED to know which. Guess it's an OCD thing lol.
Click to expand...

3rd Monkey,

I didn't assume you were trying to argue, and by no means do i want to come across that way. It's all good.

Like you already know. Soil is a balance, a little bit of everything is usually enough to keep the ph stable.

We know the soil is ffof, but we don't know the amendments in the soil. Fox Farms likely don't say, and the ingredients may change slightly from batch to batch.

All i'm suggesting is the ph of the waste, as an accurate ph reading for soil is unreliable. It's best to take a slurry sample to test it for an accurate measurement.

eddysteady said:
Because there hasn't been any Ca added so the levels would be that low any Ca that was unavailable would be insignificant
Click to expand...

eddysteady,

It's stated calmag has been supplemented.

It's stated the Fox Farm nutrients are being used at half strength every few waterings. If i'm not mistaken, from memory the FF feeding chart 1/2 a dose is around 1000ppm. Which is a lot, especially for soil.

It is stated there were ph issues early on, and the plant's symptoms have apparently gotten progressively worse.

My opinion of a lockout still hasn't changed.

We can agree to disagree.

:peace:
 
Aussieaceae said:
3rd Monkey,

I didn't assume you were trying to argue, and by no means do i want to come across that way. It's all good.

Like you already know. Soil is a balance, a little bit of everything is usually enough to keep the ph stable.

We know the soil is ffof, but we don't know the amendments in the soil. Fox Farms likely don't say, and the ingredients may change slightly from batch to batch.

All i'm suggesting is the ph of the waste, as an accurate ph reading for soil is unreliable. It's best to take a slurry sample to test it for an accurate measurement.



eddysteady,

It's stated calmag has been supplemented.

It's stated the Fox Farm nutrients are being used at half strength every few waterings. If i'm not mistaken, according to the FF feeding chart 1/2 a dose is around 1000ppm. Which is a lot, especially for soil.

It is stated there were ph issues early on, and the plant's symptoms have apparently gotten progressively worse.

My opinion of a lockout still hasn't changed.

We can agree to disagree.

:peace:
Click to expand...
Adding Cal Mag to soil to treat a Ca deficiency does more harm than good
 
Aussieaceae said:
3rd Monkey,

I didn't assume you were trying to argue, and by no means do i want to come across that way. It's all good.

Like you already know. Soil is a balance, a little bit of everything is usually enough to keep the ph stable.

We know the soil is ffof, but we don't know the amendments in the soil. Fox Farms likely don't say, and the ingredients may change slightly from batch to batch.

All i'm suggesting is the ph of the waste, as an accurate ph reading for soil is unreliable. It's best to take a slurry sample to test it for an accurate measurement.



eddysteady,

It's stated calmag has been supplemented.

It's stated the Fox Farm nutrients are being used at half strength every few waterings. If i'm not mistaken, from memory the FF feeding chart 1/2 a dose is around 1000ppm. Which is a lot, especially for soil.

It is stated there were ph issues early on, and the plant's symptoms have apparently gotten progressively worse.

My opinion of a lockout still hasn't changed.

We can agree to disagree.

:peace:
Click to expand...

Haha, and I think slurry tests are a waste. Funny how grow styles can vary so much lol.

Problem with slurry tests, is hot and cold pockets. You can hit a spot that has extra fertilizer or is null and void of it.

A flush gives a very broad spectrum of the root zone, not so much the overall medium, which is what I'm looking for (the root zone ph, not medium ph). Bare with me please lol.

In soil, it's going to depend on if you are organic or not... Step one.

Salt ferts are not the same as organic. Salts are water soluble (most, not all obviously), while organic matter must be broken down to be used.

OP is NOT growing with organic matter. It's salt based... Big difference.

Agreed?
 
3rd Monkey said:
Only way that's true is if there's a lockout.

Now which is it? You just said OP needed to up calcium before...
Click to expand...
How is adding a supplement that has a Ca Mg ratio of 3/1 to soil which should have a 6/1 ratio ever a good idea ?
And what has that got to do with an element becoming locked up ?
 
eddysteady said:
How is adding a supplement that has a Ca Mg ratio of 3/1 to soil which should have a 6/1 ratio ever a good idea ?
And what has that got to do with an element becoming locked up ?
Click to expand...

What!? You're gonna have to elaborate. I'm buzzed but not stoned yet lol.
 
I'm assuming you are going to tell me too much Mg, because that would be the answer that I'm expecting from this thought of train... Or was it train of thought?
 
Aussieaceae said:
We know the soil is ffof, but we don't know the amendments in the soil. Fox Farms likely don't say, and the ingredients may change slightly from batch to batch
Click to expand...

They do say, but the batches are notoriously inconsistent....People like to believe that FFOF is pH stable, but my Bluleab Leap pH soil probe has shown otherwise time, after time, after time, after time......I've seen readings from OUT of the bag, as low as 5.3....rarely above 6.1....
Now, start dumping the FF Nute line in there, according to their "schedule" and watch your medium PLUMMET into the low 4 range....
 
eddysteady said:
Adding Cal Mag to soil to treat a Ca deficiency does more harm than good
Click to expand...

Yep and i agree.

But it isn't my point.
If calcium's being supplemented, on top of nutrient being supplemented at 1000ppm, what makes you believe it's deficient in anything?

3rd Monkey said:
Haha, and I think slurry tests are a waste. Funny how grow styles can vary so much lol.

Problem with slurry tests, is hot and cold pockets. You can hit a spot that has extra fertilizer or is null and void of it.

A flush gives a very broad spectrum of the root zone, not so much the overall medium, which is what I'm looking for (the root zone ph, not medium ph). Bare with me please lol.

In soil, it's going to depend on if you are organic or not... Step one.

Salt ferts are not the same as organic. Salts are water soluble (most, not all obviously), while organic matter must be broken down to be used.

OP is NOT growing with organic matter. It's salt based... Big difference.

Agreed?
Click to expand...

Lol :P, yeah i am organic notill. If i'm being honest, i test ph about once a year, in the beginning of the season just before i plant. So i know what to amend with.

I'm fairly familiar with indoor growing. Have had some good runs using straight coco coir hydro. In this instance i always read my waste if something was wrong. Always.

Though we forget, that just like soil, coco coir is always breaking down. It aint like rockwool.
The amount of different organic materials in soil, containing different nutrients, and breaking down at different rates, waste readings in this instance is generally too inaccurate to tell.
If it's a smaller pot, then yes, i can see how reading waste might be reliable. On the contrary though, the soil has come from a reputable supplier, mixed with perlite so it has good drainage etc. So we can assume the soil's structure is going to be fairly consistent all the way through the pot.
Hot spots aren't really going to happen in this case. Maybe if the soil was continuously wet, but still.

My opinion about a slurry sample still stands, because it's testing the soil itself. We aren't growing in an inert medium, the waste will likely read differently to what the soil is itself.

Look i'm beating a dead horse here going back and forth with you. We disagree with each other, but thats ok.

My opinion given the supplied information is that it's lockout.

I'll leave it there.

Take it easy bud. :eyesmoke:
 
Chip Green said:
They do say, but the batches are notoriously inconsistent....People like to believe that FFOF is pH stable, but my Bluleab Leap pH soil probe has shown otherwise time, after time, after time, after time......I've seen readings from OUT of the bag, as low as 5.3....rarely above 6.1....
Now, start dumping the FF Nute line in there, according to their "schedule" and watch your medium PLUMMET into the low 4 range....
Click to expand...

Their soils tend to be hot too, no?
 
Chip Green said:
They do say, but the batches are notoriously inconsistent....People like to believe that FFOF is pH stable, but my Bluleab Leap pH soil probe has shown otherwise time, after time, after time, after time......I've seen readings from OUT of the bag, as low as 5.3....rarely above 6.1....
Now, start dumping the FF Nute line in there, according to their "schedule" and watch your medium PLUMMET into the low 4 range....
Click to expand...
Agreed, and understand. Imho OP should probably take advice from yourself since you have a lot of experience using ffof.
 
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