trayvan martin

NoDrama said:

The thing that we need to substantiate is who initiated the assault, pursuit is not assault.

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lol, no.

who initiated the use of force is irrelevant. by pursuing martin, zimmerman clearly provoked the situation. if he had sat tight, as advised, and use of force was initiated against him, that would be one thing.

but that is not the case. zimmerman provoked the use of force, and so we must now look at the two exceptions.

exception 1: Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;

since it was not the case that zimmerman exhausted every possible means of escape and was also not in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm (neighbors reported finding him nonchalantly standing over martin's dead body), his first exception is out the window.

exception 2: In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

since there were screams for help right before the gunshot, rather than a retreat AND a call for a truce, exception #2 is out the window.

zimmerman provoked the situation and had no good reason to use deadly force after doing so. it's open and shut based on what scant evidence we have. no reasonable doubt exists to anyone who understands how to read the law.

londonfog said:

excuse the dumb question , but raccons would steal the eggs right...they don't eat the chickens do they ????

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they would eat the chickens and the eggs. which reminds me, i have to close the coop up and top off their food.

my neighbors have a raccoon family living under their shed, but they have not been seen in my yard.

NoDrama said:

I agree with you. The responsibility that goes with CCW has great importance and should not be taken likely.

BUT, If someone who is acting suspiciously was in my neck of the woods I don't wait the 20 minutes it takes for the Sherrif to come to my place if I feel threatened. I make the call then I take action to protect myself and my property. The police are under no obligation to protect you under any circumstances, that is not their job. Most people do not realize this.

We need to remember that Mr Zimmerman was on neighborhood watch, they have that program because that neighborhood has crime, crime that the people of that area are actively trying to assuage.

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You're talking that crap to the wrong person , here it's a half hour to forty-five minute **to the pavement** , now you extrapolate the response time , and then quit attempting to utilise such red herrings on me. Alright?


And the neighborhood watch facet is equally a red herring , perhaps you need to do some research and find out the auspices under which ' neighborhood watch' groups operate.

In addition you REALLY need to do some VERY basic reseach into self-defense law and quit yapping " pursuit is not assault" , you'll find that presumption of superior force trumps your bullshit , in other words ya pursue someone with a firearm in your hand you're already in brandishing territory along with assault , in many locales assault charges can be based (again) upon the presumption of superior force wielded in an intimidating manner.

And insofar as it goes , Zimmerman would be a bullying crack piece of shit STILL if the kid had been white , Indian or just fucking Purple and Polymorphously Perverse.


And all the bravado BULLSHIT within this thread " wel I WOULD FOLOOW aguy in my neighborhood , now what ya gonna do when the guy turns around and says to you " what the hell do you want?"

And it's a natural response , it's also a natural reponse to not take a buncha shit when the clown starts lipping off.

UncleBuck said:

lol, no.

who initiated the use of force is irrelevant. by pursuing martin, zimmerman clearly provoked the situation. if he had sat tight, as advised, and use of force was initiated against him, that would be one thing.

but that is not the case. zimmerman provoked the use of force, and so we must now look at the two exceptions.

exception 1: Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;

since it was not the case that zimmerman exhausted every possible means of escape and was also not in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm (neighbors reported finding him nonchalantly standing over martin's dead body), his first exception is out the window.

exception 2: In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

since there were screams for help right before the gunshot, rather than a retreat AND a call for a truce, exception #2 is out the window.

zimmerman provoked the situation and had no good reason to use deadly force after doing so. it's open and shut based on what scant evidence we have. no reasonable doubt exists to anyone who understands how to read the law.

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If trayvon attacked first he would be in the wrong.Being followed doesnt give you the right to assualt someone.

cliffey501 said:

If trayvon attacked first he would be in the wrong.

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trayvon is not in the wrong for jack shit. he was on the way back from the store and some vigilante decided he was a threat based on Dog knows what.

cliffey501 said:

Being followed doesnt give you the right to assualt someone.

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agreed, but following someone makes you the aggressor, not the aggressed. thus we refer to 776.041, and must decide if zimmerman meets one of the two exceptions to being the aggressor.

for a super intelligent canuck, you sure have trouble reading and comprehending our american laws. it's probably the lax educational standards in canada to blame.

NoDrama said:

I imagine a high percentage of CCW holders carry all the time.

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I think you need to read up on the Do's and Don't of the "NeighborHood Watch Program"..It's a key word in the title that tells what you are mostly suppose to do hint hint its watch ...You are not to have a firearm on you...You are not to confront person...You are to Watch and Report. Did Zimmerman not say he was part of the Neighborhood Watch program.

UncleBuck said:

they would eat the chickens and the eggs. which reminds me, i have to close the coop up and top off their food.

my neighbors have a raccoon family living under their shed, but they have not been seen in my yard.

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ok now raccons are evil..never trusted the little mask-faced bandits ever since they stole my fresh caught fish once on a camping trip

cliffey501 said:

If trayvon attacked first he would be in the wrong.Being followed doesnt give you the right to assualt someone.

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So he's being followed , he's on the phone at the time..........yeah sure he " attacked".......and if Zimmerman was following him *against basic procedure* , dontcha think it just MIGHT have been HE who initiated the conflict......... tell ya what , FOLLOW me
and then mouth off and then try to put your hands on me I'm gonna kick the everloving shit out of you , if you're showing a sidearm I'm going to shoot you..simple as that.

AGAIN...............Zimmerman went looking for trouble...........PERIOD END OF STORY.

UncleBuck said:

lol, no.

who initiated the use of force is irrelevant. by pursuing martin, zimmerman clearly provoked the situation. if he had sat tight, as advised, and use of force was initiated against him, that would be one thing.

but that is not the case. zimmerman provoked the use of force, and so we must now look at the two exceptions.

exception 1: Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant;

since it was not the case that zimmerman exhausted every possible means of escape and was also not in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm (neighbors reported finding him nonchalantly standing over martin's dead body), his first exception is out the window.

exception 2: In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

since there were screams for help right before the gunshot, rather than a retreat AND a call for a truce, exception #2 is out the window.

zimmerman provoked the situation and had no good reason to use deadly force after doing so. it's open and shut based on what scant evidence we have. no reasonable doubt exists to anyone who understands how to read the law.

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Pursuit IS NOT initiation of force. You CANNOT be injured because I am following you. You could claim assault on every goddamned person behind you on the road if following someone were the same as a physical attack.

londonfog said:

I think you need to read up on the Do's and Don't of the "NeighborHood Watch Program"..It's a key word in the title that tells what you are mostly suppose to do hint hint its watch ...You are not to have a firearm on you...You are not to confront person...You are to Watch and Report. Did Zimmerman not say he was part of the Neighborhood Watch program.

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we don't have a neighborhood watch where i'm at, but i am the de facto neighborhood watch guy on the basis of my profession keeping me at home all the time.

i've seen newspaper delivery people come screaming up our road like a bat out of hell at 4 am and try to steal items off my neighbor's property, which is far more than trayvon ever did. i didn't hop in my car and pursue these people, i got their license number and called the non-emergency dispatch line.

whoever was stealing the recyclables from the side of my house has since stopped, leading me to believe that i found my culprit.

londonfog said:

I think you need to read up on the Do's and Don't of the "NeighborHood Watch Program"..It's a key word in the title that tells what you are mostly suppose to do hint hint its watch ...You are not to have a firearm on you...You are not to confront person...You are to Watch and Report. Did Zimmerman not say he was part of the Neighborhood Watch program.

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TBH I have never lived anywhere where there was a neighborhood watch program. I wasn't aware of laws that bound its members to certain behavior.

NoDrama said:

Pursuit IS NOT initiation of force. You CANNOT be injured because I am following you. You could claim assault on every goddamned person behind you on the road if following someone were the same as a physical attack.

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you're not even using the language of the law that i was kind enough to cite for you.

the justifiable use of force law employed by florida and 22 other states, aka "stand your ground" laws, make a distinction between simply standing your ground and being the aggressor.

zimmerman, did not stand his ground, he aggressed. so refer to 776.041 and try again, princessdrama.

note: that last little stab at you was for being obtuse and just to spice things up.

NoDrama said:

TBH I have never lived anywhere where there was a neighborhood watch program. I wasn't aware of laws that bound its members to certain behavior.

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Its called rules. You must follow them if you want to be associate with the organization...in which Zimmerman said he was. Dude you love fighting the losing fight...your life must be painful..

I read 30+ pages of this bullshit... and I just want to say one thing: "NoDrama"? I LOL'D.

AltarNation said:

I read 30+ pages of this bullshit... and I just want to say one thing: "NoDrama"? I LOL'D.

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hence why i am goading him on with the title of "princessdrama".

he fancies himself an intellectual, but refuses engage with me on any non-insulting intellectual level.

tries to bring cars behind me into the discussion as some kind of ace in the hole.

i just LOL.

I think instead of the N he meant to type "Modrama"

UncleBuck said:

trayvon is not in the wrong for jack shit. he was on the way back from the store and some vigilante decided he was a threat based on Dog knows what.



agreed, but following someone makes you the aggressor, not the aggressed. thus we refer to 776.041, and must decide if zimmerman meets one of the two exceptions to being the aggressor.

for a super intelligent canuck, you sure have trouble reading and comprehending our american laws. it's probably the lax educational standards in canada to blame.

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Actually I can read and comprehend them just fine.

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[SUP][14][/SUP]
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force.

If trayvon did throw the first punch and im not saying he did he would have to prove that a threat of unlawful force was imminent .
Also you might think your pretty clever with all your stabs at me being a dumb canadian but go check your facts.Depending on who's statistics you look at we are either equal or higher than USA as far as education is concerned .

RoninAmok said:

So he's being followed , he's on the phone at the time..........yeah sure he " attacked".......and if Zimmerman was following him *against basic procedure* , dontcha think it just MIGHT have been HE who initiated the conflict......... tell ya what , FOLLOW me
and then mouth off and then try to put your hands on me I'm gonna kick the everloving shit out of you , if you're showing a sidearm I'm going to shoot you..simple as that.

AGAIN...............Zimmerman went looking for trouble...........PERIOD END OF STORY.

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As long as there arent any verbal or physical threats made you would be in the wrong.

cliffey501 said:

Actually I can read and comprehend them just fine.

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[SUP][14][/SUP]
776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force.

If trayvon did throw the first punch and im not saying he did he would have to prove that a threat of unlawful force was imminent .

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why would trayvon martin "throw the first punch" if no one followed him? if no one follows him, he goes home and enjoys his bag of skittles and arizona iced tea.

it's clear to anyone with an intelligence quotient that is greater than two standard deviations below average and/or anyone who does not frequent the A3P website for validation that this entire incident was "initially provoked" by an overzealous fella by the name of zimmerman.

initial provocation is the crux of this case. we all know who initially provoked the entire incident, and it was not the kid with the candy and iced tea.

however, i would love to hear why you think that a child walking home with some candy was the aggressor, and why the oversized cop wannabe with the gun who followed him was the victim.

cliffey501 said:

Also you might think your pretty clever with all your stabs at me being a dumb canadian but go check your facts.Depending on who's statistics you look at we are either equal or higher than USA as far as education is concerned .

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i had to score 92% to get an A, and 64% to pass a class. i hear you canucks can pass with a 50%, and based on your grammar and command (or lack thereof) of the english language, i tend to believe it.

UncleBuck said:

[/FONT][/COLOR]why would trayvon martin "throw the first punch" if no one followed him? if no one follows him, he goes home and enjoys his bag of skittles and arizona iced tea.

it's clear to anyone with an intelligence quotient that is greater than two standard deviations below average and/or anyone who does not frequent the A3P website for validation that this entire incident was "initially provoked" by an overzealous fella by the name of zimmerman.

initial provocation is the crux of this case. we all know who initially provoked the entire incident, and it was not the kid with the candy and iced tea.

however, i would love to hear why you think that a child walking home with some candy was the aggressor, and why the oversized cop wannabe with the gun who followed him was the victim.

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So tell me then how long does one have to be "followed" before he can legally beat a mofo down? Is it a Particular distance? like 5 blocks? or maybe time based ? like 15 minutes?
And im not saying zimmermen isn't guilty he very well maybe but Im not jumping to conclusions.Did you hop on the KONY 2012 band wagon too?

i had to score 92% to get an A, and 64% to pass a class. i hear you canucks can pass with a 50%, and based on your grammar and command (or lack thereof) of the english language, i tend to believe it.

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Ya because your grammar is amazing.HINT: The shift key makes letters go to capitals.Get off your high horse Captain America, you guys aren't as "superior" to the rest of the world as you would like to think.

cliffey501 said:

So tell me then how long does one have to be "followed" before he can legally beat a mofo down? Is it a Particular distance? like 5 blocks? or maybe time based ? like 15 minutes?

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LOL! you want to know what is so funny here?

the dumb canuck has jumped to the conclusion, despite a complete lack of evidence, that the fucking coon "beat a mofo down".

cliffey501 said:

Im not jumping to conclusions

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yes you are. there is way more evidence to prove that martin was aggressed than there is to prove that martin, who is half the size of zimmeran, gained superhuman strength and "beat the mofo down" who was twice his size.

of course, you will never have to deal with someone following you around for nothing else besides that you were a "black male" who "looks like he's on drugs...or something". unlike myself, you never even attempt to put yourself in his shoes. all you ever do is grant sainthood to zimmerman and make the kid with the fucking skittles look like some goon.

fucking pathetic. i have addressed your race baiting, now please keep your racial tones out of my thread.