Top bin COB comparison
- Thread starter SupraSPL
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Fastslappy
Well-Known Member
16 deegree drop for a 3590 did i read that right ?
if that's what I think = significant difference
if that's what I think = significant difference
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
Check out this thread, shows the difference from the Vero V1 to V2, some significant changes to the spectra. The Vero 4000K 80CRi V2 is looks like a very good balance IMO.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/vero-v2.860217/#post-11309368
https://www.rollitup.org/t/vero-v2.860217/#post-11309368
testiclees
Well-Known Member
Yo Bud, happy new year,
Ya know i'm running the optic 360 with the v1 version of vero 29,4k along with 4 3590, cd @ 3500k. In your opinion would it be worthwhile switching over to the v2 cobs ? Strictly a flowering light.
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SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
Good question, I am not sure how much difference there would be in practice. On paper it is not a large difference. At 79W the Vero29 4k V1 is supposed to be 125lm/W and the 4K V2 is now up to 135lm/W, an increase of 8%. Happy New Year to you as well hope you are getting some nice buds!
AquariusPanta
Well-Known Member
@robincnn
The CXB3590 CD 3500K most definitely looks more red than the Vero 29 V2 3000K under the same optics and at the same current. Did you have a similar finding?
@SupraSPL
I'll be testing case temperatures for the Vero 29 3000K & 4000K and Cree CXB3590 3500K CD later in the week with all factors being as identical as possible, in order to see how these cobs compare at different currents. It's always baffled me on why throughout my PAR measurements the Cree CXB lineup has never lived up to it's hype. For now double the price of a Vero 29, the CXB3590 CD, from Jerry (it's three times more than the Vero 29 at Mouser), slightly surpasses photon output when compared to the Vero 29 in similar settings. I can only guess that the Vero 29 is handling heat much better than the CXB3590 at various currents and is thus closing the gap between the efficiency difference between the two.
I will also being testing a Cree CXB3590 CD from Mouser to see if what some of us are obtaining from Jerry are legit, as I came across a physical anomaly not too long ago when testing forward voltage and current between two CXB3590 CD cobs that I acquired through Jerry. I'll show some of that if results prove abnormal, otherwise I'll throw it out as a manufacturer's error/defect.
The CXB3590 CD 3500K most definitely looks more red than the Vero 29 V2 3000K under the same optics and at the same current. Did you have a similar finding?
@SupraSPL
I'll be testing case temperatures for the Vero 29 3000K & 4000K and Cree CXB3590 3500K CD later in the week with all factors being as identical as possible, in order to see how these cobs compare at different currents. It's always baffled me on why throughout my PAR measurements the Cree CXB lineup has never lived up to it's hype. For now double the price of a Vero 29, the CXB3590 CD, from Jerry (it's three times more than the Vero 29 at Mouser), slightly surpasses photon output when compared to the Vero 29 in similar settings. I can only guess that the Vero 29 is handling heat much better than the CXB3590 at various currents and is thus closing the gap between the efficiency difference between the two.
I will also being testing a Cree CXB3590 CD from Mouser to see if what some of us are obtaining from Jerry are legit, as I came across a physical anomaly not too long ago when testing forward voltage and current between two CXB3590 CD cobs that I acquired through Jerry. I'll show some of that if results prove abnormal, otherwise I'll throw it out as a manufacturer's error/defect.
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
What top bin CREEs have have always done best is reach the very highest levels of efficiency at low to mid power, Hawaii, LA, NYC, desert, solar powered, battery powered applications etc. I think these test results reinforce that but even at 75W the CXB3590 is putting out significantly more than the Vero 29 and there is a small amount of unavoidable temp droop already worked in to the high wattage figures.
The Veros are king of bang for the buck and a great option for commercial lamps or any applications that can benefit from LED not running long hours. The price drop and high performance of the Vero29 is great news for many growers who are not in a situation where they want/need to push the upper boundaries of efficiency and those who are just venturing away from HPS.
When it comes to temp droop, I think that mostly depends on heatsink cooling power. I was able to run a CXB3590 at 100W and measured only 2.5% temp droop (heavy duty CPU cooler with fan running at 5V). I tested the Optic Lighting Vero29 lamp with temp droop of 3% (Vero29s running at 80W ea on 12V CPU coolers). So if the COBs are mounted onto decent CPU coolers and running at 50-75W, I don't think it will make much difference which COBs you are running you will get excellent temp droop. But if the COBs are under-cooled, the Veros will withstand that situation better than the CREEs.
The Veros are king of bang for the buck and a great option for commercial lamps or any applications that can benefit from LED not running long hours. The price drop and high performance of the Vero29 is great news for many growers who are not in a situation where they want/need to push the upper boundaries of efficiency and those who are just venturing away from HPS.
When it comes to temp droop, I think that mostly depends on heatsink cooling power. I was able to run a CXB3590 at 100W and measured only 2.5% temp droop (heavy duty CPU cooler with fan running at 5V). I tested the Optic Lighting Vero29 lamp with temp droop of 3% (Vero29s running at 80W ea on 12V CPU coolers). So if the COBs are mounted onto decent CPU coolers and running at 50-75W, I don't think it will make much difference which COBs you are running you will get excellent temp droop. But if the COBs are under-cooled, the Veros will withstand that situation better than the CREEs.
AquariusPanta
Well-Known Member
What sort of device are you using to measure case temperatures? Again, I've only worked with Cree cobs from a single source and the test results were shocking as the proposed efficiency bump from Vero 29 to CXB3590 CD wasn't as big as what some would have guessed. I'll possibly know more as the week comes to an end, as I'll be performing tests on temperature droop at various outputs (25W, 50W, 75W), as well as comparing how one source's product varies to another source's product.
If case temperatures for the Cree cobs are significantly higher than their Vero counterpart, then that would explain some of the indifference of photon output. In other words, if the Cree3590 CD is operating at 75C and the Vero 29 at 35C under the same circumstances, then it really doesn't matter how impressive the proposed efficiency of a Cree cob is, as real world readings trump calculations.
If case temperatures for the Cree cobs are significantly higher than their Vero counterpart, then that would explain some of the indifference of photon output. In other words, if the Cree3590 CD is operating at 75C and the Vero 29 at 35C under the same circumstances, then it really doesn't matter how impressive the proposed efficiency of a Cree cob is, as real world readings trump calculations.
Greengenes707
Well-Known Member
AquariusPanta
Well-Known Member
I was hoping he was using something a little more optimal, such as a K type thermometer. Abiqua had a link to a nice, affordable one in one of the other threads, something Bridgelux or Cree may rather approve of 
SupraSPL
Well-Known Member
I was the heatsink temp in this case. The Taylor thermometer is precise and accurate, but when measuring in between the fins the probe interferes with the airflow slightly, so I had to prewarm the thermometer probe until it was very close to the temp I was trying to measure and then get the measurement quickly. The idea was to use a "too small" heatsink to exaggerate the temp difference from one COB to another, in theory revealing the difference in efficiency and it does seem to work so far.
Measuring the case temp requires that photons are not hitting the thermocouple. That problem becomes trickier at high dissipation W. I have never been satisfied with the repeat-ability of my case temp measurements using any method including thermocouple, so instead I try to measure the actual temp droop which has been much more repeatable. Hopefully you will have more luck with Tc than I did.
Measuring the case temp requires that photons are not hitting the thermocouple. That problem becomes trickier at high dissipation W. I have never been satisfied with the repeat-ability of my case temp measurements using any method including thermocouple, so instead I try to measure the actual temp droop which has been much more repeatable. Hopefully you will have more luck with Tc than I did.
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robincnn
Well-Known Member
Vero case temps have been higher than cree in my tests. upto to 10C differences when at 80 watts. Measured with AWG 29 thermocouple
Either the Vero Tc point is too close to LES and Cree is little further away. not sure.
Yes.
Either the Vero Tc point is too close to LES and Cree is little further away. not sure.
Yes.
Fastslappy
Well-Known Member
cxb3590 on Amazon http://www.amazon.com/High-Power-LEDs-White-3000/dp/B0131UYAHY/ref=pd_sim_sbs_328_1?ie=UTF8&dpID=11AKpQr4B-L&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR160,160_&refRID=15V5GWFKMFGW8QYB4CEX
3000K
Ouch !! he's got another 3000k for Even more as well !
3000K
Ouch !! he's got another 3000k for Even more as well !
alesh
Well-Known Member
Or Cree COBs are just more efficient as the data sheet indicates.
alesh
Well-Known Member
So you've got access to an integrating sphere already?
AquariusPanta
Well-Known Member
Nah used my handy dandy PAR meter from Apogee. What would you guess the difference in results would be if one were to take, say, two samples and test with both approaches, those approaches being the use of a PAR meter, which is what most growers and grow light manufactures utilize to get an idea of light output, and the use of an IS through a third party? Obviously a few parameters distinguish one approach from another but would results, more or less, share the same answer in regards to the question of which sample discharges the most light?
Do you cover the Vero thermo point with anything, such as kapton tape?
robincnn
Well-Known Member
@AquariusPanta
I use vero 29 clamp , which is used to mount the ledil reflector.
It gives some isolation between veros Tc point and LES
The Tc point is close to LES in vero so I do not compare Tc of Veros with Cxb. It is not apples to apples IMO
I use vero 29 clamp , which is used to mount the ledil reflector.
It gives some isolation between veros Tc point and LES
The Tc point is close to LES in vero so I do not compare Tc of Veros with Cxb. It is not apples to apples IMO
AquariusPanta
Well-Known Member
Yeah I noticed that too, that while the Vero Tc reading point is within mm's of the LES, the CXB's is closer to the corner of it's board. They even used different materials for their reading points, with the latter providing a small yet metallic surface.
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