This Is Why I Believe.

crackerboy said:

it is impossible and thats why He sent Jesus. If it was not for Jesus Sacrificing himself for us than we would all be screwed.

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Yet your all-powerful god couldn't come up with a better way than to perform his revelation in a backwater, superstitious part of the world, knowing that the end of times will not occur until man has peered inside the atom and back to the beginning of time? This ironically, also happens after your god told his people to be very skeptical of anyone claiming to be a messiah. He warned of magicians and sorcery to accomplish "miracles." Jews don't accept Jesus for one main reason, The Messiah is self-evident. The next King of Israel who rebuilds The Temple will be, by definition a messiah. They don't buy the do-over idea the Christians tried to pawn off, that these things will be accomplished during his "second coming." This flies in the face of prophecies in the OT which is why there are still many Jews that don't think Israel should be a state.

mindphuk said:

Yet your all-powerful god couldn't come up with a better way than to perform his revelation in a backwater, superstitious part of the world, knowing that the end of times will not occur until man has peered inside the atom and back to the beginning of time? This ironically, also happens after your god told his people to be very skeptical of anyone claiming to be a messiah. He warned of magicians and sorcery to accomplish "miracles." Jews don't accept Jesus for one main reason, The Messiah is self-evident. The next King of Israel who rebuilds The Temple will be, by definition a messiah. They don't buy the do-over idea the Christians tried to pawn off, that these things will be accomplished during his "second coming." This flies in the face of prophecies in the OT which is why there are still many Jews that don't think Israel should be a state.

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No actually Jesus perfectly fulfilled the prophecies. The Pharisees out of fear of loosing their power conspired to have Jesus killed. God used mans own corruption to fulfill his plan for the sacrifice. Buy yeah the Bible makes many statements about his people rejecting Him. When Jesus returned to his home town he was rejected. The Bible clearly covers these points. You talk about God doing all this in the midst of one of the most superstitious parts of the world, but that was the whole world. Where on earth at that time was there not any kind of superstitions. And Look in the midst of all the superstitions, religions, and Greek mythology Christianity rose to the top. It rose because of the great clarity it provided that all the others did not.

crackerboy said:

No actually Jesus perfectly fulfilled the prophecies. The Pharisees out of fear of loosing their power conspired to have Jesus killed. God used mans own corruption to fulfill his plan for the sacrifice. Buy yeah the Bible makes many statements about his people rejecting Him. When Jesus returned to his home town he was rejected. The Bible clearly covers these points. You talk about God doing all this in the midst of one of the most superstitious parts of the world, but that was the whole world. Where on earth at that time was there not any kind of superstitions. And Look in the midst of all the superstitions, religions, and Greek mythology Christianity rose to the top. It rose because of the great clarity it provided that all the others did not.

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ROFL! Learn your history buddy;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I

Padawanbater2 said:

ROFL! Learn your history buddy;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I

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Yeah and what is your point with the Constantine bit. That was part of my point. Out of all the other religions and superstitions Christianity was by far the most powerful. It's easy to just post some random low blow insinuating that I just don't know my history. But some random link to wiki does not really prove a point to me. Come on out and make your point.

crackerboy said:

And Look in the midst of all the superstitions, religions, and Greek mythology Christianity rose to the top. It rose because of the great clarity it provided that all the others did not.

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crackerboy said:

Yeah and what is your point with the Constantine bit. That was part of my point. Out of all the other religions and superstitions Christianity was by far the most powerful. It's easy to just post some random low blow insinuating that I just don't know my history. But some random link to wiki does not really prove a point to me. Come on out and make your point.

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It didn't "rise to the top" because of it's great clarity... It rose to the top because it was mandated by the Emperor. That's why you (and millions like you) practice it.

Want proof? Ratio of Christians in eastern lands not conquered by the Romans.

Logic Win

crackerboy said:

No actually Jesus perfectly fulfilled the prophecies.

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Perfect would mean that he doesn't have to come back to finish them off. That's not even taking into account the apologists attempting to make prophecies fit that don't such as being from the lineage of David and being born of a virgin. Do you not find it odd that the earliest of the synoptic gospels has no mention of the virgin birth? Oh, what, did it slip his mind? The fact is that the writer of Matthew took Isaiah 7 and attempted to apply it to Jesus because at that time, kings were born of virgins (including Pharaohs and Roman Emperors). Yet Isaiah never mentions a virgin birth but is a mistranslation in a prophecy for King Ahaz.
Let's see what else Jesus failed to fulfill-

• The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) Nope
• Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4) Never became king of Israel. Other nation's leaders do not follow Jesus
• The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17) Nope.
• He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8–10) Nope. This one requires more depth --
  
  If Jesus is the messiah, then he could not have been born of a virgin; he would have had to have a father who was of the House of David, and
  f Jesus was born of a virgin, then he could not have been the messiah, because his father -- the Holy Spirit -- was not a human descendent of the House of David.
• The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2) Okay, this one applies but it also applied to my grandfather, maybe he was the messiah
• Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) Evil and tyranny still occur all over
• Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9) This thread demonstrates this is false.
• He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) Okay, I'll give him this one
• All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) Nope
• Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25: Pretty sure there is still death
• There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25: ditto
• All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) Zombie apocalypse!!!
• The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) Ahh, no.
• He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 53:7) okay sure
• Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13–53:5) Give me a count
• The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) I guess the Christians forgot to erase this one
• The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) nope
• Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) big no
• The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended mitzvot already discussed
• He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
• Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
• He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13–15, Ezekiel 36:29–30, Isaiah 11:6–9)

Well, you get the picture. Of course your Christian teachers will tell you how he fulfilled all of the prophecies but the only retort that they can give when it's pointed out the prophecies that if fulfilled, would have made it obvious to everyone that he was truly the messiah, are the same ones that won't really be fulfilled until his return. I can just as easily claim my grandfather was the messiah and you will find out for sure when he returns to fulfill the rest. These unfulfilled prophecies are a glaring problem that are dismissed with the wave of the hand and fancy apologists "logic."

not to go off topic,but ive got a question ive still yet to have answered.why in any version of the bible...there is no speak of dinosaurs?im not talking serpents (snakes) which is really the only thing that is talked about in the bible as it comes to any type of reptilian species.now i would think if god make this planet and everything in it..then the first thing he put on this planet before humans should be brought up once or twice in the bible...considering this was a species that numbered in the billions...tons of them..walking around..eaten trees and other dinosaurs..that they would mention this species...since it got wiped off the face of the earth before we took over.why are they not mentioned....because they was not discovered yet in the time the bible was constructed....the first dinosaur genus wasnt even named until the 1820's.thats why the bible dont talk about them...man...that wrote and constructed the bible...didnt know about them...they havent dug that far down yet......my point being...seeing as god put them here...wiped them out...why is it never mentioned in any literature.thats info i would like to know...if he put them here..why did he take them out..and if he did that to dinosaurs...will he do it to us?

Your good at fogging the mirror. But I just wipe that crap away. I think there is more than enough here to prove my point. The Bible speaks for itself if you look with an open mind. Oh yeah he the Bible goes on to tell how the rest will be fulfilled. Take your time research them.
So let me get this straight, you believe that kings and pharaohs were born of virgins but not Jesus. How does that work?

Prophecy: Seed of a woman
Old Testament Reference: Genesis 3:14-15
New Testament Fulfillment: Galatians 4:4

Prophecy: From the Tribe of Judah (Juda)
Old Testament Reference: Genesis 49:10
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 3:33

Prophecy: Descendant of Abraham, Issac and Jacob
Old Testament Reference: Genesis 12:3, 17:17-19; Numbers 24:17
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 1:1-2,16; Luke 3:34, 38

Prophecy: Heir to the Throne of David
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 9:6-7
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 1:32

Prophecy: Anointed and Eternal
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 45:6-7
New Testament Fulfillment: Hebrews 1:8-10

Prophecy: Jesus to be born in Bethlehem
Old Testament Reference: Micah 5:2
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 2:4-7

Prophecy: The time of Jesus' birth
Old Testament Reference: Daniel 9:24-25
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 2:1-5

Prophecy: Christ to be born of a virgin
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 7:13-14
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 1:26-28, 30-31

Prophecy: Lamentation for the killing of infants
Old Testament Reference: Jeremiah 31:15
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 2:16-18

Prophecy: To be called out of Egypt
Old Testament Reference: Hosea 11:1
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 2:13-15

Prophecy: The way of the Lord prepared
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 40:3-4
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 3:2-5

Prophecy: A messenger to come before the Lord
Old Testament Reference: Malachi 3:1
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 7:24-27

Prophecy: A prophet would be raised up
Old Testament Reference: Deuteronomy 18:15
New Testament Fulfillment: Acts 3:19-20, 22

Prophecy: Declared to be a Son of God
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 2:7
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 3:13-17

Prophecy: Ministry centered in Galilee
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 9:1-2
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 4:12-16

Prophecy: Jesus Christ would speak in parables
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 78:1-2
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 13:34-35

Prophecy: Jesus to bind up and heal the brokenhearted
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 61:1-3
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 4:17-21

Prophecy: A Priest after the order of Melchizedek
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 110:1,4
New Testament Fulfillment: Hebrews 5:5-6

Prophecy: Despised, rejected and not believed, especially by the Jews
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 53:1-4
New Testament Fulfillment: John 1:11, 12:37-40; Luke 23:16-18

Prophecy: Hated without reason
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 35:19
New Testament Fulfillment: John 15:24

Prophecy: Triumphal entry in Jerusalem
Old Testament Reference: Zechariah 9:9
New Testament Fulfillment: Mark 11:7-11

Prophecy: Praised by the mouth of babes
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 8:1-2
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 21:15-16

Prophecy: The Messiah would be cut off, but not for himself
Old Testament Reference: Daniel 9:25-27
New Testament Fulfillment: John 11:49-52

Prophecy: Betrayal of Jesus Christ by a close friend (Judas)
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 41:9
New Testament Fulfillment: Mark 14:10, Luke 22:47-48

Prophecy: Price paid to Judas for betraying Jesus
Old Testament Reference: Zechariah 11:12
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 26:14-15

Prophecy: What would be done with the betrayal money
Old Testament Reference: Zechariah 11:13
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:3, 5-7

Prophecy: Forsaken by His disciples
Old Testament Reference: Zechariah 13:7
New Testament Fulfillment: Mark 14:50; Matthew 26:31

Prophecy: False witnesses against Christ
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 27:12, 35:11
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 26:59-61; Mark 14:55-57

Prophecy: Jesus would not open his mouth (defend himself) against false accusations
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 53:7
New Testament Fulfillment: Mark 15:4-5, Matthew 27:13-14

Prophecy: Satan shall bruise Jesus' "heel"
Old Testament Reference: Genesis 3:15
New Testament Fulfillment: John 19:18; John 12:31-33

Prophecy: His scourging predicted
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 50:6
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:26; Mark 15:15

Prophecy: His body would be brutalized
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 22:16-17; Isaiah 52:14
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:26, 29-30; John 19:1-3

Prophecy: Jesus would be bruised and crucified for the sins of the world
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 53:4-6, 10-11
New Testament Fulfillment: Romans 5:6-8

Prophecy: Shame, reproach and dishonor; adversaries before Him.
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 69:17-19
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:27-30

Prophecy: Feet and hands would be pierced
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 22:15-16; Zechariah 12:9-10
New Testament Fulfillment: John 19:33-35, 20:25-27

Prophecy: He was numbered among the transgressors
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 53:12
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 23:33

Prophecy: Some observers would shake their heads at him
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 22:7-8, 109:25
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:39-40

Prophecy: Reviled and mocked by the crowd
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 22:7-8
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:39-43; Luke 23:34-35

Prophecy: Intercession for sinners and those killing him
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 53:12
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 23:33-34

Prophecy: Parting of His garments and the casting of lots for them
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 22:18
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:35; John 19:23-24

Prophecy: Stared at Jesus on the cross
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 22:16-17
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:36, 55

Prophecy: Family and friends would observe
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 38:10-11
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 23:48-49; Matthew 27:55-56

Prophecy: Forsaken by God
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 22:1-2
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:45-46

Prophecy: His side would be pierced
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10
New Testament Fulfillment: John 19:34

Prophecy: Gave Him vinegar to drink
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 69:21
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:28-30

Prophecy: Christ would commit His spirit to the Father
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 31:5
New Testament Fulfillment: Luke 23:46; John 19:30

Prophecy: Not one of His bones would be broken
Old Testament Reference: Exodus 12:43, 46; Psalm 34:19-20
New Testament Fulfillment: John 19:33-36

Prophecy: Jesus Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us
Old Testament Reference: Exodus 12:3, 5-6; Isaiah 53:7
New Testament Fulfillment: John 1:29; 1Corinthians 5:7; 1Peter 1:18-19

Prophecy: Jesus would be buried in the tomb of a rich man
Old Testament Reference: Isaiah 53:8-9
New Testament Fulfillment: Matthew 27:57-60

Prophecy: Jesus would be resurrected
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 16:10-11; Psalm 49:15
New Testament Fulfillment: Mark 16:5-6

Prophecy: His ascension to God’s right hand
Old Testament Reference: Psalm 68:18
New Testament Fulfillment: 1Corinthians 15:3-6; Mark 16:19-20; Ephesians 4:8-10

djruiner said:

not to go off topic,but ive got a question ive still yet to have answered.why in any version of the bible...there is no speak of dinosaurs?im not talking serpents (snakes) which is really the only thing that is talked about in the bible as it comes to any type of reptilian species.now i would think if god make this planet and everything in it..then the first thing he put on this planet before humans should be brought up once or twice in the bible...considering this was a species that numbered in the billions...tons of them..walking around..eaten trees and other dinosaurs..that they would mention this species...since it got wiped off the face of the earth before we took over.why are they not mentioned....because they was not discovered yet in the time the bible was constructed....the first dinosaur genus wasnt even named until the 1820's.thats why the bible dont talk about them...man...that wrote and constructed the bible...didnt know about them...they havent dug that far down yet......my point being...seeing as god put them here...wiped them out...why is it never mentioned in any literature.thats info i would like to know...if he put them here..why did he take them out..and if he did that to dinosaurs...will he do it to us?

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There are only a few species mentioned in the Bible. Never at any point does it try to name all the species. So this is not some surprise. Did you happen to see that passage where it talk about the sea slug? No? hmm thats because it would be a really long book if it addressed them all.

crackerboy said:

There are only a few species mentioned in the Bible. Never at any point does it try to name all the species. So this is not some surprise. Did you happen to see that passage where it talk about the sea slug? No? hmm thats because it would be a really long book if it addressed them all.

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we are not talking slugs and bugs and shit...im talking of a major species that had complete control of the plantet..they was the top of the food chain...yet nothing..im not talking about naming every species...im talking about dinosaurs...which is not mentioned in the bible at all

Padawanbater2 said:

It didn't "rise to the top" because of it's great clarity... It rose to the top because it was mandated by the Emperor. That's why you (and millions like you) practice it.

Want proof? Ratio of Christians in eastern lands not conquered by the Romans.

Logic Win

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And why did he Choose Christ? Out of all the others why Christ. Yes God worked his will and perpetuated his work through man. Way to point out some history that once again proves my point.

djruiner said:

we are not talking slugs and bugs and shit...im talking of a major species that had complete control of the plantet..they was the top of the food chain...yet nothing..im not talking about naming every species...im talking about dinosaurs...which is not mentioned in the bible at all

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So what? Most creatures of this earth where not mentioned. What does that mean? nothing. The Bible does mention beasts and foul. Whats to say that wasn't your dino's.

crackerboy said:

So what? Most creatures of this earth where not mentioned. What does that mean? nothing. The Bible does mention beasts and foul. Whats to say that wasn't your dino's.

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sure..this means that and this means this...lets bend words to make it fit to what we need it to be...there just seems to be a few too many loopholes....and when its not 6am...ill be more then happy to go into more details.but i dont judge people based on what "superstition" they follow...pick your 4 leaf clover or your rabbits foot and run with it...just dont cram it down others throat.face facts....the whole religion debate will always go on...because you cant prove..or disprove...no matter what quotes and passage you pull..you cant prove it.everyone has something they believe in...noone is right...noone is wrong..why..beacause you cant prove it.and what works for me..is i dont follow a book written by man that tells me to follow an invisible man that sends me to a place of fire and pain for not worshiping him...kinda not my thing to do as im told to suite the needs of ones ego

and say the "beast and fouls" was the dinosaurs....read the first say 30 pages of the bible..its goes on forever in way too much detail about pretty much nothing that has any purpose...if that much detail is went into on so many other subjects...why is the first major species that was on this plant that got wiped out..gone..no more..not mentioned?

djruiner said:

sure..this means that and this means this...lets bend words to make it fit to what we need it to be...there just seems to be a few too many loopholes....and when its not 6am...ill be more then happy to go into more details.but i dont judge people based on what "superstition" they follow...pick your 4 leaf clover or your rabbits foot and run with it...just dont cram it down others throat.face facts....the whole religion debate will always go on...because you cant prove..or disprove...no matter what quotes and passage you pull..you cant prove it.everyone has something they believe in...noone is right...noone is wrong..why..beacause you cant prove it.and what works for me..is i dont follow a book written by man that tells me to follow an invisible man that sends me to a place of fire and pain for not worshiping him...kinda not my thing to do as im told to suite the needs of ones ego

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Don't get mad at me bro. You all are the ones that keep attacking my faith. I just feel obligated to fight back. Its not much of a debate if the whole thread is just a bunch of atheist bashing Christianity. Its the rest of you that are making accusations against what I believe. You are the ones cramming this down my throat. I just refuse to swallow.

crackerboy said:

Don't get mad at me bro. You all are the ones that keep attacking my faith. I just feel obligated to fight back. Its not much of a debate if the whole thread is just a bunch of atheist bashing Christianity. Its the rest of you that are making accusations against what I believe. You are the ones cramming this down my throat. I just refuse to swallow.

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not mad at all...nor am i attacking you or your "faith"...im asking a logical question..but not getting a logical answer...nor am i questioning the religion..there is a difference between questioning god and asking a question....why is it when questions...that cant be answered come around..its us attacking you...thats you going on the defense to make up for the fact that you dont have an answer

are you a preacher....your giving me the same results i got from other preachers and pastors when i ask this question...like there is another book they pass out to give you things to say to those that oppose you

djruiner said:

not mad at all...nor am i attacking you or your "faith"...im asking a logical question..but not getting a logical answer...nor am i questioning the religion..there is a difference between questioning god and asking a question....why is it when questions...that cant be answered come around..its us attacking you...thats you going on the defense to make up for the fact that you dont have an answer

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Look you can ask why doesn't the Bible talk about this and why doesn't the Bible talk about that. I will tell you why, its because its not relevant to the message god is conveying to us. That simple. If you don't see the attack than you have not read the whole thread or you are just biased.

crackerboy said:

Look you can ask why doesn't the Bible talk about this and why doesn't the Bible talk about that. I will tell you why, its because its not relevant to the message god is conveying to us. That simple. If you don't see the attack than you have not read the whole thread or you are just biased.

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im not talking about the whole thread..im talking about my question and your answer...if they attacked you..thats them...stop basing who the "good guys" are based on what they believe.and if im going to base my life on a book...then it better not be so damn vague....certain things are covered and certain things are not because it was written by primitive man that didnt have a grasp on the whole world yet.why is it people jump so quickly to follow religion...fear...the whole "god fearing man" thing....why follow someone that uses fear to get you to follow him?why..cause its easier to control masses if you give them something to fear

djruiner said:

im not talking about the whole thread..im talking about my question and your answer...if they attacked you..thats them...stop basing who the "good guys" are based on what they believe.and if im going to base my life on a book...then it better not be so damn vague....certain things are covered and certain things are not because it was written by primitive man that didnt have a grasp on the whole world yet.why is it people jump so quickly to follow religion...fear...the whole "god fearing man" thing....why follow someone that uses fear to get you to follow him?why..cause its easier to control masses if you give them something to fear

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Its not about fear man. The whole book is about Gods love for us and how we betrayed His trust. And every since then he has done great things so that we can have a relationship with him. You must understand that God is the opposite of of evil. The definition of evil is the absence of God. Evil disgusts God and he must wipe our sins away before he can have us in his presents. Look at it from his point of view. He gave us everything, and all we do is spit in his face. But yet he still sent his only Son.