This is gonna get interesting! Militia takes over Ore. federal building after protest.

natro.hydro · Jan 4, 2016

pnwmystery said:
You should probably familiarize yourself about what's going on beyond what FoxNews and Breitbart tells you. No one said the Hammonds are terrorists. They're saying the Hammonds violated Federal law which they did. The Hammonds know they violated Federal law so they're actually complying and went to jail today. It's the armed militia that's being ring led by Ammond Bundy that people are calling domestic terrorism because it is.

It really is almost 2 separate scenarios.... you have the people who committed the crime, and then the wackos who decided to take up arms for their cause.

The wackos are the terrorists, the Hammonds are just arsonists. The reason they have to go back to prison is there is a minimum mandatory sentence with their charge and for whatever reason the original judge felt he could rule otherwise... not how it works, you do the crime you gotta do ALL the time

pnwmystery · Jan 4, 2016

OddBall1st said:
It`s not.

But please explain being sentenced and serving only to be released,resentenced by another judge that thought the first was lenient.

The first sentencing was final, anything else is deliberate double jeopardy. We can`t have that as the new norm......Yes, they should be beaten to immobility, but not sentenced twice for one crime. The first sentencing had no extensions or provisions.

Like natro.hydro pointed out, the charge of arson carries a 5 year mandatory minimum sentence. The problem with a lot of these trials with people who have a significant amount of money that they can hire a lawyer to fight for them is that they sometimes will not see prison right away. Especially when it comes to something that isn't a drug or murder charge. Here's what's on the justice.gov site.

"By law, arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. When the Hammonds were originally sentenced, they argued that the five-year mandatory minimum terms were unconstitutional and the trial court agreed and imposed sentences well below what the law required based upon the jury’s verdicts. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, however, upheld the federal law, reasoning that “given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense.” The court vacated the original, unlawful sentences and ordered that the Hammonds be resentenced “in compliance with the law.” In March 2015, the Supreme Court rejected the Hammonds’ petitions for certiorari. Today, Chief Judge Aiken imposed five year prison terms on each of the Hammonds, with credit for time they already served."

It's weird, but it's not double jeopardy. This is why sometimes some murderers will be let out of jail - due to the appeal process. Sometimes this is also why some people who "walked" will also go back to jail because of the appeal process. The thing why double jeopardy doesn't come into play is that you're not being charged for the same crime twice. An appeal court overturns a lower court, so it's the same crime being argued at another level. Usually it works in favor of the defendant.

pnwmystery · Jan 4, 2016

Lord Kanti said:
So now basic English is wrong?

Also what dictionary did you get your definition from? Because this is the problem with terrorism: The definition varies somewhat from places to place.

OED defines terrorism as: The use of violence and intimidation in the pursuit of political aims.
Merriam-Webster defines terrorism as: the use of violent acts to frighten the people in an area as a way of trying to achieve a political goal.

Now, they want to give back Federal land "to the people." So that it can be used for lumber, mining, and unlimited grazing (i.e. exploited and not protected), and also want the Hammonds released from prison. This is a political aim. They've taken over a wildlife refuge center, armed with weapons, threatening violence, and schools in the area have been shut down for the week. This is using violence and intimidation for a political goal thus it's terrorism.

How's that for basic English?

OddBall1st · Jan 4, 2016

pnwmystery said:
Like natro.hydro pointed out, the charge of arson carries a 5 year mandatory minimum sentence. The problem with a lot of these trials with people who have a significant amount of money that they can hire a lawyer to fight for them is that they sometimes will not see prison right away. Especially when it comes to something that isn't a drug or murder charge. Here's what's on the justice.gov site.

"By law, arson on federal land carries a five-year mandatory minimum sentence. When the Hammonds were originally sentenced, they argued that the five-year mandatory minimum terms were unconstitutional and the trial court agreed and imposed sentences well below what the law required based upon the jury’s verdicts. The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, however, upheld the federal law, reasoning that “given the seriousness of arson, a five-year sentence is not grossly disproportionate to the offense.” The court vacated the original, unlawful sentences and ordered that the Hammonds be resentenced “in compliance with the law.” In March 2015, the Supreme Court rejected the Hammonds’ petitions for certiorari. Today, Chief Judge Aiken imposed five year prison terms on each of the Hammonds, with credit for time they already served."

It's weird, but it's not double jeopardy. This is why sometimes some murderers will be let out of jail - due to the appeal process. Sometimes this is also why some people who "walked" will also go back to jail because of the appeal process. The thing why double jeopardy doesn't come into play is that you're not being charged for the same crime twice. An appeal court overturns a lower court, so it's the same crime being argued at another level. Usually it works in favor of the defendant.

Ok I understand now. I misunderstood some reading and thought they were in, served, and let out.

In Ma. Arson of any kind carries a life sentence.

GrowUrOwnDank · Jan 4, 2016

Man this whole thing is going to turn into a giant shit sandwhich it sounds like. The Hammonds don't seem to support the Bundy's. Public opinion doesn't seem to be working in their favor. And, If I read it correctly the Bundy's don't even live in the area of Oregon where the land was seized and the protests are taking place. And this entire act is born out of greed for money and property rights.

They probably shoulda just went to Disney land or something. But NOOO! They gotta show off those shiny new guns they got for Christmas. <smh>.

UncleBuck · Jan 4, 2016

Rob Roy said:
What is your fascination for championing government killing children ?

the branch davidians lit their own house on fire instead of surrendering. they killed their own kids.

still probably a better outcome than letting koresh go all pedo on them, which you would have loved to have been a part of no doubt.

Rob Roy · Jan 5, 2016

757growin said:
Those people aren't taking anything back. And if push comes to shove these will be in prison or dead. Do you think itso ok to terrorize the public to get your point across?

How is the public being terrorized ?

You are correct in that sooner or later there is a good possibility these "occupiers" will be killed or imprisoned.

Do you feel safer with the Hammonds in jail? Did you fear the Hammonds were coming to get you?

Rob Roy · Jan 5, 2016

UncleBuck said:
the branch davidians lit their own house on fire instead of surrendering. they killed their own kids.

still probably a better outcome than letting koresh go all pedo on them, which you would have loved to have been a part of no doubt.

I think we agree David Koresh wasn't a person either of us would have liked to associate with.

After the Feds cut off the Davidians power and water to better enable their government seige, people were forced to shit on floors... on second thought maybe you have a stronger kinship with them than I originally posited.

Was this action a police action or a military action against american citizens who were innocent until proven guilty?

Rob Roy · Jan 5, 2016

Flaming Pie said:
I thought they had to have ties to extremist groups bent on killing to be considered terrorist..

Nope. Patriot act.

I wouldn't do what they are doing tho. Government takes what it wants. Their protest is hurting the government how? Why would they comply to anything?

I can't speak for the protesters, but I guess they are trying to call attention in general to overstepping government and to the sentence of the Hammonds.

Where I might differ with the occupier guys is I don't think there are lasting political solutions to political problems, I think politics usually IS the problem, so I might not use the same methods as the gun polisher guys.

I think the Hammonds lost their nerve and are behaving like they have Stockholm syndrome. The Hammonds participation would have given more credibility to what's happening from a viewer ratings perspective.

I don't think either the Hammonds or the gun polisher occupier guys are "terrorists" though.

GrowUrOwnDank · Jan 5, 2016

Rob Roy said:
I can't speak for the protesters, but I guess they are trying to call attention in general to overstepping government and to the sentence of the Hammonds.

Where I might differ with the occupier guys is I don't think there are lasting political solutions to political problems, I think politics usually IS the problem, so I might not use the same methods as the gun polisher guys.

I think the Hammonds lost their nerve and are behaving like they have Stockholm syndrome. The Hammonds participation would have given more credibility to what's happening from a viewer ratings perspective.

I don't think either the Hammonds or the gun polisher occupier guys are "terrorists" though.

The last sentence. I think I agree with you. And I think public opinion agrees with you and that's why they are being mocked with hash tags such as #Y'allQuaeda and #YeeHawd. But, they've made statements to the effect of killing and being killed. They show off the new guns they got for Christmas. Non violent people are sick of all this killing. Intimidating with guns. Silly guns. I've shot all types. ask a good ole boy who was raised right who has been around guns all his life. You might discover it's just a tool. It doesn't intimidate. No fear.

Yeah. Them good ole boys need an attitude adjustment. I hardly think you can represent as they have for the sake of greed and property rights to make more and more money. And expect to not receive some fall out in the form of . They shoulda just went to Disneyland. Now...... I think the gov in this case will work with them to de-escalate the sit. It will end peacefully as they realize. The pretty and shiny new guns they got for Chrostmas just aren't that impressive anymore. Manufacturers are making these things at a blinding pace and try are everywhere. Everybodies got em and a 3 year old can't point and pull a trigger. It don't take a greedy bunch of men to make you man enough to do that. It just takes a finger and Amy old finger will probably work. They should have just went to Disney land bro. We do need refuge to protect our wildlife. Some has to be set aside to preserve the beauty. You just can't allow folks to rape the land to no end to make more and more money and acquire more and more wealth. The people are not necessarily behind this. In my opinion. Peace and love bro.

Rob Roy · Jan 5, 2016

757growin said:
Maybe you should put some effort to have laws changed if you don't like them. Or perhaps there is some countries government you prefer so you can move there. There is proper channels to present your complaints. Not by breaking and entering and threatening to kill law enforcement for doing their job.

Do you support law enforcement "just doing their job" when they break and enter to take away a persons cannabis garden too?

757growin · Jan 5, 2016

Rob Roy said:
How is the public being terrorized ?

You are correct in that sooner or later there is a good possibility these "occupiers" will be killed or imprisoned.

Do you feel safer with the Hammonds in jail? Did you fear the Hammonds were coming to get you?

I was afraid the Hammonds will burn Oregon down. Stop mixing the two criminal cases. There's the Hammonds the arsonists and the Bundy Mormon terrorist crew. Two different stories, not one in the same...

757growin · Jan 5, 2016

Rob Roy said:
Do you support law enforcement "just doing their job" when they break and enter to take away a persons cannabis garden too?

If they do it without a warrant they are breaking the law. So they wouldn't be doing there job. If they are following the law, I may not like it but I will accept it. Gardens are raided everyday but pot farmers are not holed up in a federal building armed to protests.

Rob Roy · Jan 5, 2016

757growin said:
I was afraid the Hammonds will burn Oregon down. Stop mixing the two criminal cases. There's the Hammonds the arsonists and the Bundy Mormon terrorist crew. Two different stories, not one in the same...

When you hide under your bed like that, do you ever find it hard to breathe due to the dust balls?

757growin said:
If they do it without a warrant they are breaking the law. So they wouldn't be doing there job. If they are following the law, I may not like it but I will accept it. Gardens are raided everyday but pot farmers are not holed up in a federal building armed to protests.

So, when slavery was legal, you would have returned a runaway slave to his masters, because it was illegal for you to help them?

spandy · Jan 5, 2016

757growin said:
Gardens are raided everyday but pot farmers are not holed up in a federal building armed to protests.

Not a single thing has been burned or stolen and they made national news and lots of attention is not just being paid to them, but to the ranchers and those like them that are dealing with similar bullshit from the feds.

The fact that they are armed is to keep anyone from coming in because they know its standard procedure for police to stay the fuck back from an armed group especially if they haven't proven to be dangerous to themselves or anyone else around them. How many shots were fired in Nevada at the Bundy ranch? I mean, shots that weren't fired by government officials that were trying to kill cattle and then bury them in mass graves to cover it up, dont count those now. Just those crazy white people that had guns and shit, how many shots did they fire?

spandy · Jan 5, 2016

pnwmystery said:
Call them what they are: Domestic terrorists. If a group of Muslims took over a Federal building to protest say: the use of torture, FOX News and the right would be clamoring for the US military to be deployed. Now, when a group of white ranchers with a history of doing stupid, illegal shit, occupy a building and threaten to use force on any Federal agent that approaches, they're suddenly what? A group of "Occupiers?"

When the FBI labels domestic terrorism as...

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and

Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

They fall squarely under it. Why are we negotiating with terrorists? They should be locked up.

So terrorists burned Ferguson and Baltimore.

Those fucking assholes!

757growin · Jan 5, 2016

spandy said:
Not a single thing has been burned or stolen and they made national news and lots of attention is not just being paid to them, but to the ranchers and those like them that are dealing with similar bullshit from the feds.

The fact that they are armed is to keep anyone from coming in because they know its standard procedure for police to stay the fuck back from an armed group especially if they haven't proven to be dangerous to themselves or anyone else around them. How many shots were fired in Nevada at the Bundy ranch? I mean, shots that weren't fired by government officials that were trying to kill cattle and then bury them in mass graves to cover it up, dont count those now. Just those crazy white people that had guns and shit, how many shots did they fire?

There's plenty of ranchers who pay their own way, for food, water and land for the cattle. These bums, Hammonds and bundys just want a free ride. How about I go graze my cattle on the public lands the bundys use and starve their cows off. I mean it's open to the public right? Or is it public to the bundys only. Im just confused why you defend the thieving bundys who have now taken to terrorism in the take over of a federal building.

Rob Roy · Jan 5, 2016

757growin said:
There's plenty of ranchers who pay their own way, for food, water and land for the cattle. These bums, Hammonds and bundys just want a free ride. How about I go graze my cattle on the public lands the bundys use and starve their cows off. I mean it's open to the public right? Or is it public to the bundys only. Im just confused why you defend the thieving bundys who have now taken to terrorism in the take over of a federal building.

A few decades ago in the early 1970s Native American activists, among them Russell Means, "took over" the site of the Wounded Knee massacre. You may recall the federal government massacred people there in 1890.

Should the Federal Government have killed the activists in the 1970s ? Were they criminals?

Rob Roy · Jan 5, 2016

757growin said:
There's plenty of ranchers who pay their own way, for food, water and land for the cattle. These bums, Hammonds and bundys just want a free ride. How about I go graze my cattle on the public lands the bundys use and starve their cows off. I mean it's open to the public right? Or is it public to the bundys only. Im just confused why you defend the thieving bundys who have now taken to terrorism in the take over of a federal building.

Maybe you should graze them at a government school, they could feed alongside the sheep that are already there.

757growin · Jan 5, 2016

Rob Roy said:
Maybe you should graze them at a government school, they could feed alongside the sheep that are already there.

Very witty..

This is gonna get interesting! Militia takes over Ore. federal building after protest.

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