This article was in Nature? WTF?!

tyler.durden

Well-Known Member
What's up with this article, I thought nature was a respected science rag? What, really, is the author trying to say? In one breath he says for those of us who cannot comprehend the math behind the Higgs Field, our belief is an act of faith, and because science faces challenges from religious and 'ideological' differences 'it will always be necessary to have ways of understanding our world beyond the scientifically rational.' Really? Why? I expect this subjective, warm-and-fuzzy tripe from a lot of sources, but from a leading science periodical? What the fuck is going on over there?

www.nature.com/news/sometimes-science-must-give-way-to-religion-1.11244

Nature | Column: World View

danielsarewitz.jpg



Sometimes science must give way to religion

The Higgs boson, and its role in providing a rational explanation for the Universe, is only part of the story, says Daniel Sarewitz[SUP]2[/SUP].

22 August 2012



Visitors to the Angkor temples in Cambodia can find themselves overwhelmed with awe. When I visited the temples last month, I found myself pondering the Higgs boson — and the similarities between religion and science.
The Higgs, of course, has been labelled the ‘god particle’ because it accounts for the existence of mass in the Universe. But the term (coined by physics Nobel laureate Leon Lederman, perhaps to the regret of some of his colleagues) also signals the ambition of science, or at least of certain branches of physics, to probe the origins and meaning of existence itself — which, to some, is the job of religion. Science may seek a theoretically and empirically sound explanation of such origins and religion may not. But this distinction is less clear than it seems.
The wonder invoked by the Angkor temples is not an accident or a modern conceit. It flows, at least in part, from the intention of those who designed the temples. “In each of the Angkor monuments,” the architect Maurice Glaize explained in his exhaustive 1944 guide to the temples, “a pre*occupation with symbolic order seeks to create a representation of the universe in reduction … realising a kind of correctly ordered model”. The overwhelming scale of the temples, their architectural complexity, intricate and evocative ornamentation and natural setting combine to form a powerful sense of mystery and transcendence, of the fertility of the human imagination and ambition in a Universe whose enormity and logic evade comprehension.
Science is supposed to challenge this type of quasi-mystical subjective experience, to provide an antidote to it. The Higgs discovery, elucidating the constituents of existence itself, is even presented as a giant step towards the ultimate cure: a rational explanation for the Universe. That such scientific understanding provides a challenge to religion is an idea commonly heard from defenders of science, especially those in more militant atheist garb. Yet scientists who occupy that ground are often too slow to recognize the irrational bases of their own beliefs, and too quick to draw a line between the scientific and the irrational. Take, for example, how we come to know what science discovers. Most people, including most scientists, can acquire knowledge of the Higgs only through the metaphors and analogies that physicists and science writers use to try to explain phenomena that can only truly be characterized mathematically.
Here’s The New York Times: “The Higgs boson is the only manifestation of an invisible force field, a cosmic molasses that permeates space and imbues elementary particles with mass … Without the Higgs field, as it is known, or something like it, all elementary forms of matter would zoom around at the speed of light, flowing through our hands like moonlight.” Fair enough. But why “a cosmic molasses” and not, say, a “sea of milk”? The latter is the common translation of an episode in Hindu cosmology, represented on a spectacular bas-relief panel at Angkor Wat showing armies of gods and demons churning the “sea of milk” to producean elixir of immortality.
“For those who cannot follow the mathematics, belief in the Higgs is an act of faith, not of rationality.”


If you find the idea of a cosmic molasses that imparts mass to invisible elementary particles more convincing than a sea of milk that imparts immortality to the Hindu gods, then surely it’s not because one image is inherently more credible and more ‘scientific’ than the other. Both images sound a bit ridiculous. But people raised to believe that physicists are more reliable than Hindu priests will prefer molasses to milk. For those who cannot follow the mathematics, belief in the Higgs is an act of faith, not of rationality.
Science advocates have been keen to claim that the Higgs discovery is important for everyone. Yet in practical terms, the Higgs is an incomprehensible abstraction, a partial solution to an extraordinarily rarified and perhaps always-incomplete intellectual puzzle.
By contrast, the Angkor temples demonstrate how religion can offer an authentic personal encounter with the unknown. At Angkor, the genius of a long-vanished civilization, expressed across the centuries through its monuments, allows visitors to connect with things that lie beyond their knowing in a way that no journalistic or popular scientific account of the Higgs boson can. Put another way, if, in a thousand years, someone visited the ruins of the Large Hadron Collider, where the Higgs experiment was conducted, it is doubtful that they would get from the relics of the detectors and super*conducting magnets a sense of the subatomic world that its scientists say it revealed.
Why does this matter? Challenges to the cultural and political authority of science continue to rise from both ideological and religious directions. It is tempting to dismiss these as manifestations of ignorance or scientific illiteracy. But I believe instead that they help to show us why it will always be necessary to have ways of understanding our world beyond the scientifically rational.
I am an atheist, and I fully recognize science’s indispensable role in advancing human prospects in ways both abstract and tangible. Yet, whereas the Higgs discovery gives me no access to insight about the mystery of existence, a walk through the magnificent temples of Angkor offers a glimpse of the unknowable and the inexplicable beyond the world of our experience.
 
I only made it three sentences in before I found the hinge of it. The author claims that science, or at least certain branches of physics, have as an ambition the explanation of the meaning of existence. At that moment, the question is well and truly begged. It's entirely his philosophical overlay.

~yawn~ Next.
cn
 
Yep. Good catch, Neer. My mind picked up on him saying that science is probing the origin of existence, but the meaning? That is certainly begging the question...

"Just because science so far has failed to explain something, such as consciousness, to say it follows that the facile, pathetic explanations which religion has produced somehow by default must win the argument is really quite ridiculous..." - Richard Dawkins
 
I do not understand the math involved in making my PlayStation operate. I guess it operates on faith. I don't understand the math that creates the Mandelbrot set, I didn't realize it was a visual representation of faith.
 
I do not understand the math involved in making my PlayStation operate. I guess it operates on faith.

But since I rather doubt that you truly believe that, I'm left to ponder whose faith you are using.

And that suggests that the real scandal to emerge is not internet piracy of songs or vids, but of faith. You're coattailing someone's WiFé network ... duuude. cn
 
I do not understand the math involved in making my PlayStation operate. I guess it operates on faith. I don't understand the math that creates the Mandelbrot set, I didn't realize it was a visual representation of faith.

Exactly. How can one consider trust in the peer review process, or in other's expertise that is not our own, faith? The engineers and mathematicians that do understand the math and technicalities behind science and technology can all verify how these things work, and many could recreate them the same way each time. Compare this to anything to do with religious faith where 1000 devotees believe 1000 different ways to go about the act of worship, or how to access a good position in some supposed afterlife...
 
"It will always be necessary to have ways of understanding our world beyond the scientific rational"

I find it funny that those words gave you guys a hurt butt. "Nothing is beyond science, thats BLASPHEMY!" xD
 
"It will always be necessary to have ways of understanding our world beyond the scientific rational"

I find it funny that those words gave you guys a hurt butt. "Nothing is beyond science, thats BLASPHEMY!" xD


There may be things beyond science, but whatever they may be, they're not magical-thinking bullshit...
 
"It will always be necessary to have ways of understanding our world beyond the scientific rational"

I find it funny that those words gave you guys a hurt butt. "Nothing is beyond science, thats BLASPHEMY!" xD

None of us disagree with that, which is why we follow instinct and intuition as well as logic. If we lived by scientific rationale, we would be forced to ignore sentimental value, yet each of us has some item that means something special to us because of who gave it to us or possessed it previously. Science is forever objective, the human experience is subjective. Science can't give me any reason why I do not like the taste of spinach. If science can't hold sway of such a simple thing just because it's subjective, then science is obviously not the only tool we use to navigate life. Science is both necessary and insufficient.

If you look at what was said without using your prejudiced view, you would see that our problem is with the suggestion that faith or religion offers any sort of value, with the equivocation of faith and trust, and with the assumption that science attempts to assign meaning. Science tries to accurately learn about reality with out concerning itself with realities intention.

Science knows it's place, it's religion that tries to influence matters outside of it's realm, and faith which allows it to do so convincingly.
 
We are forced to navigate through life, and because life plays by certain rules, the better we understand the rules the better our navigation. Science is a system to carefully discover those rules through thorough observation, controlled testing and consistent logic. Upon discovering many of the rules, we see that religion doesn't seem to acknowledge them. When we inquire why it persists in ignoring these rules, the reason we are given is faith.

The virgin birth is a claim that contradicts biology. The resurrection is a claim that contradicts physiology. The claim that the universe was created with us in mind contradicts cosmology. The claim that the earth was created 6000 years ago contradicts geology. And so on. If religion were to stay only within it's bounds and was given only the influence it deserved, that is, if religion did not enjoy the spoils of faith, it would simply be called spirituality. There is something mysterious about conscious awareness. It's easy to make the case that there could be a sacred element to our existence. There is nothing about scientific rationale that inherently opposes this idea. Science simply can not care if it wanted to. When we assign the concept of sacred to our existence, we imply that our consciousness is somehow beyond nature, and therefore beyond science. Science studies nature, not spirituality. At the same time, science is not able to stand by and give ideas based on spirituality a pass when they contradict it's findings. If spirituality wants to play in the real world, then it must acknowledge the real world. If science can have nothing to say about spiritual subjects, then spirituality can have nothing to say about scientific subjects.

Science attempts to understand the world. Spirituality attempts to understand our place in the world. Religion is simply a collection of failed ideas about our place in the world used to dictate our understanding of the world. Religion tries to be all, and delivers none, yet is kept alive by faith.
 
If I might break away from speaking about what is, and speculate on what if...

You could chose to look at it this way. As science looks at smaller and smaller things, tries to understand the very nature of matter's existence, it approaches the edge of it's realm. It's rules do not seem to apply, and when we search for new rules there is a struggle. The smaller we get, or the more precise, the less predictable we can be. Perhaps lurking within the uncertainty principal is the implication that there are some things that can not be known through science, even when we restrict our questions to 'how', and not 'why'. All that there is left to do for science is to fine tune what is within it's realm, which we have not even began to do. If this is so, we would be wise to entertain other methods of obtaining answers. But we do not need to accept other methods indiscriminately. There are some aspects of some spiritual teachings that strike me as being on the right track, but many, virtually all, including religion, have derailed.
 
Wow, Heis. Very eloquent and insightful posts, thank you for these great contributions to my thread. My rep button is broken...
 
If I might break away from speaking about what is, and speculate on what if...

You could chose to look at it this way. As science looks at smaller and smaller things, tries to understand the very nature of matter's existence, it approaches the edge of it's realm. It's rules do not seem to apply, and when we search for new rules there is a struggle. The smaller we get, or the more precise, the less predictable we can be. Perhaps lurking within the uncertainty principal is the implication that there are some things that can not be known through science, even when we restrict our questions to 'how', and not 'why'. All that there is left to do for science is to fine tune what is within it's realm, which we have not even began to do. If this is so, we would be wise to entertain other methods of obtaining answers. But we do not need to accept other methods indiscriminately. There are some aspects of some spiritual teachings that strike me as being on the right track, but many, virtually all, including religion, have derailed.

The same holds true when science seeks out the inexpressibly large. cn

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