The 'Official' Do Not Vote For Obama In 2012 - Thread. Don't Want Him Back N Office!

RyanTheRhino

Well-Known Member
In the last 20 (?) years, worker productivity has doubled, some from autmation but most certainly not all. Yet average pay has increased barely at all over those 20 years. So when you say "they got there from blood sweat and tears" exactly who's blood sweat and tears are you talking about?

Re-read what you wrote. your statement shows how the automation of companies has decreased the actual amount of work while still increasing employees pay rate.

or are you talking about the workers who are laid off and then supplied with food stamps payed for by the company taxes. how if they where a union worker they would continue to get full pay- pension for years after they got laid off. Thats why ford almost went out of business because greedy unions.

Back when there where no worker right they where a good thing that protected workers from 20 hour days or coal mines paying their workers with currency only accepted by the company stores.
 

RyanTheRhino

Well-Known Member
exxonprofitsandtaxes.jpg

Thats why Exxon Mobil paid 30 Billion dollars in 2007. How much yea it was $30,000,000,000. and they paid similar amounts every year. so what they didn't pay for one year. How much have you provided in taxes?


http://seekingalpha.com/article/63131-exxon-s-2007-tax-bill-30-billion. I can google stuff too
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Re-read what you wrote. your statement shows how the automation of companies has decreased the actual amount of work while still increasing employees pay rate.

or are you talking about the workers who are laid off and then supplied with food stamps payed for by the company taxes. how if they where a union work they would continue to get full pay- pension for years after they got laid off. Thats why ford almost went out of business because greedy unions.

Back when there where no worker right they where a good thing that protected workers from 20 hour days or coal mines paying their workers with currency only accepted by the company stores.

I am saying that wealth is created only by workers. If worker's productivity has increased then their individual wealth should have increased as well. Surely wealth itself has increased - who got the benifit of that increased productivity?
 

musicislfe

Well-Known Member

RyanTheRhino

Well-Known Member
Ok i see what your saying but, there is no true way to know if wealth has actual increased. company wealth is based on there reputation. even if there was an increase welcome to capitalistic society. Thats just how things work out. Every one has the ability to make it big. You have to lose some to win some. Most billionaires have been bankrupt once or twice.


Look Up the company Enron to see what i mean about Reputation based wealth.
 

musicislfe

Well-Known Member
Making it "big" in the US today is alot like being in a band. NO not everyone has the ability to make it big, Ther are 3 deciding factors. #1 Who you know #2 How talented are you #3 and how much money do you have to invest. Good luck.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Some will say if it is not defined IN the Constitution, it CANNOT be defined outside of the Constitution. Therefore, without a clear understanding of the meaning of income, the law is invalid because of vagueness.
On the other hand, others will say, "let the Supreme Court decide the meaning" and in Eisner vs Macomber they did. The SCOTUS ruled that income is gain or profit. Elsewhere, it was ruled that wages paid in exchange for labor is not gain or profit. After all, if you work an 8 hour shift for a predetermined amount of money, you are exchanging your labor for money. No one has gained or profited. Elsewhere (my apologies for not citing the actual cases here, I am going from memory and don't want to take the time to look them up, but feel free to check, the information is out there), the court ruled that your labor is your private property and that the 16th Amendment gave the government "No new taxing powers", in other words, if they did NOT have the power to tax your wages before the 16th, they do not have that power now.
Furthermore, in the IRS own documents, they say that filing and paying of said income tax is voluntary, specifically "Voluntary Compliance". Now I'm not going to ask you to give me the definition of voluntary, I think everyone here will agree what that means. Does it mean that if you do NOT comply, you will go to jail?
The "We the People" Foundation has had a $50,000 reward for anyone who could produce the law that says American citizens must pay a tax on their wages, so far nobody has collected. Also, I know of 5 ex-IRS agents that have left the Infernal Revenue Service because they have seen through the facade and their sense of justice and truth prevented them from carrying on in an illegal scam.
This is all only a tip of the iceberg. I haven't even mentioned the violation of the 5th Amendment when filing a tax return or the many other dirty little secrets that remain hidden to the uninformed.

"In a recent conversation with an official at the Internal Revenue Service, I was amazed when he told me that 'If the taxpayers of this country ever discover that the IRS operates on 90% bluff, the entire system will collapse'." -- Henry Bellmon, U.S. Senator (1969).

You don't need to bother with references, I did a little searching and came up with the same sort of thing, it cannot be defined outside of the constitutionand it is invalid because of vagueness as you state. The 16th doesn't help matters at all. I am looking into it because I can't wrap my head around it but it tends to go to my argument (in a round about sort of way) Merchants loan & trust? You got me going on this, thank you. Now I was involved in some of this when I studied child support. If there is no debtor's prison then how can I be jailed for failing to pay? I sense there is a correlation here but I'm not sure.

So income is not income if it is an exchange for work performed - makes sense. Then is income tax and indirect tax in stead? I am not an anti-tax nut, I believe that a fair tax is important to the workings of this country but I AM a Constitutional nut and if I am being taken advantage of outside of the Constitution - BY an organization bound by that document I am, well, troubled.

I gotta think about what you are saying here... I am not sure about non-compliance with the IRS as you cannot go to jail for not paying, only for evasion which is breaking separate laws than failure to pay, but, if the act of filing is voluntary as well? - I have personal experience with this very thing. I must admit your post is stunning to me though probably not to many who know far more about this aspect, it seems you do.

Thank you again for this, I need a little time with it.
 

RyanTheRhino

Well-Known Member

canndo

Well-Known Member
Back when we (supposedly) had a surplus, Mr. Bush claimed that it was "the people's money" and that it should be given back to the people. He never mentioned "the people's debt". Obama has indeed run up the counter but he is far from alone in having done so. It is not Obama's debt, it is all of ours, it is republicans who have been feeding at the trough too long. It is dems who believe that another program is all we need to set this nation right, it is the rich who believe that someone else should pay for the nuts and bolts of this country because they "deserve" what they "earn" and it is the middle class who brought all this on by believing the crap that has been spewed in order to garner their vote. I am curious about this laffer curve, trickle down voodo thing that supposedly works so well that we should have revenue flowing into the streets of Washington. If only we cut taxes more, everything would be ok and if only we cut taxes for the rich some more we could afford health care for all, two electric cars in the driveway for each of us and one of those 65 inch tvs all the welfare recipients have.
 

Shadeslay

Active Member
Personally I try to avoid voting for anyone that's popular or in other words, anyone that has a lot of face time on TV. To get time on air for advertizing, they likely sold out too someone. I do make some exceptions, if their voting record backs up what they say, for instance. Not many politicians fit in that category.
 
Is the question being asked by many people in the forum. If you voted for Obama in 2008 to prove you're not a racist, you'll have to vote for someone else in 2012 to prove you're not an idiot.

A second term for Obama would be disastrous. The previous four years are a good indication of that. Here are the reasons he won't be getting my vote:

1. ObamaCare: Contrary to the belief of some, that health care is a basic human right, the opposite is true. Obama believes in the idea of an "Economic Bill of Rights", a brain-child of Franklin Roosevelt. These rights are:

“1. The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation.

“2. The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation.

“3. The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living.

“4. The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home and abroad.

“5. The right of every family to a decent home.

“6. The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health.

“7. The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accidents and unemployment.

“8. The right to a good education.”

In the words of Ayn Rand: "A single question added to each of the above eight clauses would make the issue clear: At whose expense?

Jobs, food, clothing, recreation(!), homes, medical care, education, etc., do not grow in nature. These are man-made values—goods and services produced by men. Who is to provide them?

If some men are entitled by right to the products of the work of others, it means that those others are deprived of rights and condemned to slave labor.

Any alleged “right” of one man, which necessitates the violation of the rights of another, is not and cannot be a right."

The right to life means that a man has the right to support his life by his own work (on any economic level, as high as his ability will carry him); it does not mean that others must provide him with the necessities of life, such as health care.

The last thing our country needs is a new entitlement program. Instead, we need reform of our current system.

2. Job creation: Many on the left enjoy making the claim that Obama "has created 3.7 million jobs." What they forget to add, is that the majority of those jobs are in China.

They also like to compare his popularity with Bush 43 by claiming "the nation[...]created more jobs in 2010 alone than it did over the entire eight years of George W. Bush’s presidency." This is also incorrect. Even if our unemployment rate drops to 7.7%, Obama will have created a net total of ZERO domestic, private-sector jobs.

Is this what "economic recovery" looks like?:



Unemployment is 9.1% based upon current unemployment insurance recipients. The real unemployment rate in the United States is estimated at between 16%-20%.

Tyler Durden over at Zero Hedge has just published a startling chart that shows how dismal the jobs numbers really are. According to him and his chart, “the simple math indicates that for the US to return to its December 2007 unemployment[under evil-mastermind/bumbling idiot George Bush], when factoring in the natural growth of the labor force of 90k people a month, the economy will need to add 250k jobs a month for the next 66 months

This is what he’s talking about:



That's what you get for your $850 billion, taxpayers.

3. Fuel prices: Obama has vowed to "get down to the bottom of" the cause of these high energy prices. Of course, anyone with a working brain can tell you that this call to arms is simply to deflect criticism from the real cause: his own policies.

If you think that speculators are driving up the price of oil, you'd be wrong. The job of a speculator is to predict the price of oil. They bid on it when the price is low, and sell it when the price is high - and they're only paid if they're correct. Their "speculation" that oil will rise in price is due to many factors. Among them:

Our dollar is the world's "reserve currency". What this means, basically, is that in order for any country to purchase oil, they must first purchase U.S. dollars. Oil cannot be purchased with foreign currency.

Our inflation rate has risen nearly 20% (meaning your dollar is now worth .80c) under the Obama administration, and is expected to rise dramatically higher over the next several months.

The following video is about an hour long, but aside from the author trying to sell you an investment solution, keep in mind while watching it that S&P (Standard and Poors) has already threatened to lower our national credit rating in April:

[video=youtube;nI-BIVWlc7A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nI-BIVWlc7A[/video]

4. Again, gas prices. I drive for a living so it's exceptionally frustrating for me, personally, to have to dump $60/day into my tank.

5. The 2012 budget’s fecklessness

6. Massive deficits each and every year

7. The seizure of GM and Chrysler, the transfer of bondholder wealth to unions, and the dumping of the GM stock at a loss

8. Dodd-Frank

9. Hostility to Israel, including attack on apartment expansion and icing of Prime Minister Netanyahu in basement of White House

10. Failure to support Iran’s Green Revolution

11. Failure to support Syrian revolution

12. The Libyan Fiasco

13. The incompetent handling of the Gulf Oil disaster

14. The unnecessary permitorium in the aftermath of the Gulf Oil disaster

15. The shutdown of Shell’s Arctic oil exploration by EPA

16. The president’s push for cap-and-tax in the Congress

17. The president’s attempt to unconstitutionally impose cap-and-tax via EPA when the Congress wouldn’t pass cap-and-tax

18. The president’s push for unconstitutional restrictions on free speech on his political enemies while keeping the unions free to spend money on campaigns via The Disclose Act

19. The president’s attempt to unconstitutionally impose The Disclose Act on his political opponents but not unions via Executive Order

20. The president’s use of unaccountable “czars”

21. The president’s refusal to accept Congressional direction vis-a-vis his “czars” contained in the last 2011 Continuing Resolution

22. The president’s verbal assault on the Supreme Court while the members of the Court sat before him in the state of the Union

23. The president and Eric Holder’s politicization of the Department of Justice, including the black panthers case and the refusal to defend DOMA

24. The president’s use of demonizing rhetoric towards his opponents, such as accusing doctors of performing unnecessary surgery for money

25. The president’s hyper-partisan approach to governing including “I won, you lost” in 2009 and the assault on Paul Ryan with Paul Ryan as an invited guest in the president’s April 2011 “deficit speech.”

26. Bowing to the Saudi King and the Japanese emperor

27. Returning the bust of Churchill to Great Britain

28. Removing the missile shield from Poland and the Czech Republic

29. Backing the would-be dictator of Hondorus when that nation’s Supreme Court rightfully removed him from office

30. Failure to push for quick ratification of free trade agreements with Columbia, Panama and South Korea

31. Indecision on Afghanistan surge coupled with announcement of eventual withdrawal.

32. Incoherence on Egypt, most obviously with the dispatch of Frank Wizner and then rejection of Wizner’s advice vis-a-vis Mubarak.

33. Appointment Craig Beck to NLRB via recess appointment

34. Appointment of FCC commissioners who are pursuing “net neutrality” without Congressional authorization

35. Failure to resume full water deliveries to California’s Central Valley because of the Delta Smelt

36. Attempt to close Guantanamo Bay

37. Attempt to try terrorists in New York City

38. Janet “The System Worked” Napolitano

39. Government takeover of the student loan program

40. Cancellation of “virtual border fence” project with no replacement or indeed concern for border security

41. The “Beer Summit” and the attack on the Cambridge Police Department

42. The Department of Justice’s attack on Arizona for that state’s exercise of its sovereign legislative authority on the issue of citizen identification rules

43. The attack on Scott Walker and Wisconsin for the governor’s and the state legislature’s exercise of their sovereign legislative authority on public employment issues

44. Dabbling in basketball brackets while the Middle East fell into chaos and the gas prices skyrocketed

45. Arguing that American exceptionalism was the same as any nation’s sense of exceptionalism

46. Implying that Minnesota bridge collapse was the result of lack of infrastructure funding

47. Inserting himself into campaign for the Olympics

48. Attack on D.C. voucher program

49. Van Jones and a long list of other socialist/marxist/revolutionary friends/associates/appointees.

50. Teleprompter dependency and the worst run of presidential rhetoric since Millard Fillmore combined with testiness in the few interviews he grants.
 
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