The Never Ending Abuse of Phosphorous (Bloom foods) to Enhance Flowering

Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Longtimetoker said:
UB, I have read many of your threads and if anyone on this forum can answer this question I know you can. I was wondering to myself how the scientific community can determine nutrient requirements for plants besides doing controlled grows. If stem, stalk and leaf samples are taken from a plant at different stages of its life, the samples dried and the salts extracted leaving nothing but plant tissue, can the percentage of each salt be used to determine the macro and micro values needed in a fertilizer at a given stage of growth? If not, there should be some kind of correlation though. Is there? Thanks UB, great threads, I love ‘em all! :weed:
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Yes. You have to do tissue analysis. For example, there are 2 times during the growing cycle of grapes where you do tissue elemental proflies using leaf petole samples. http://viticulture.hort.iastate.edu/info/pdf/leafsampling.pdf

Glad you enjoy the posts!

Good luck,
UB
 
Longtimetoker

Longtimetoker

Member
UB, another question ---
What path do nutrients take after leaving the roots during bloom? Are they directed to where they are needed or do they go to the leaves first for re-distribution? Or, do the nutrients go where they are needed and the excess stored in the leaves. Or is it a little bit of both?


Thanks UB, your wisdom is priceless!
 
Brick Top

Brick Top

New Member
Longtimetoker said:
UB, another question ---
What path do nutrients take after leaving the roots during bloom? Are they directed to where they are needed or do they go to the leaves first for re-distribution? Or, do the nutrients go where they are needed and the excess stored in the leaves. Or is it a little bit of both?


Thanks UB, your wisdom is priceless!
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Not to attempt to speak for Uncle Ben, since he is the King of Growing Kings on RIU, but maybe this might be of some help in answering your question. I am sure Unc' can fill you in on more, and in a more direct manner and fill in a few important details, but maybe this will be a bit of a start for you..



Plants have two different kinds of vessels in their stems to move stuff around, xylem and phloem. Xylem runs from the roots up the stem carrying water and nutrients. Phloem runs both up and down to move sugars hormones, proteins, etc. but mostly sugars. Each part of the plant can be either a sugar source or a sugar sink. Phloem moves from sources (areas of supply) to sinks (areas of metabolism or storage). Granted that the flowers can produce some photosynthate, but they are no where near as effective as fan leaves (resin glands significantly reduce light to the tissue they are found on). Flowers are sink tissues, leaves are source tissues. Sinks do not produce enough photosynthate, and are importers.Remove the source and the sink will be affected.

Photosynthesis occurs in all green parts of plants. The process has two stages, the light reactions and the Calvin cycle, that convert water and carbon dioxide into sugar and oxygen. These sugars are later used to power all the processes in the plant, including the synthesis of THC and other cannabinoids. Fan leaves possess the greatest number of stomata, which are small pores or valves on the underside of the leaf which water vapor and carbon dioxide diffuse during transpiration and photosynthesis (carbon fixation). Carbon dioxide first enters the leaf through the stomata and combines with the stored energy in the chloroplasts through a chemical reaction (the Calvin cycle) to produce a simple sugar. This sugar is unloaded into the tissues and transported through tubes in the leaf to supply the synthesized food to other plant parts such as growing or respiring tissues like young leaves, roots, and flowers of the plant meristems.

Fan leaves store mobile nutrients, these stored nutrients are essential in the later stages of flowering. When flushing a plant the fan leaves will lose their color quickly. This is because the nutrients are being mobilized to the atypical meristem (grow tip, bud site). Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development.
 
Longtimetoker

Longtimetoker

Member
Brick Top said:
Fan leaves store mobile nutrients, these stored nutrients are essential in the later stages of flowering. [/B] When flushing a plant the fan leaves will lose their color quickly. This is because the nutrients are being mobilized to the atypical meristem (grow tip, bud site). Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development.
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An excellent reply, thank you Brick Top! Your reply has brought up a few more questions but I'm going to ask only one for now concerning the quoted reply above. I understand the need for flushing to prevent salts build up (if to much nutrient has been used) but the part where you say "Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development", I don't understand. Why would flowering increase when the plant switches from one nutrient source, the roots, to another nutrient source, the leaves? Unless this is the plant responding to a "do or die" situations and starts pumping out the flowers to propagate the species. I have seen this happen to Ligustrum and citrus that seem to sense their demise. Before it happens you can pick them out because they are very, overly abundant with bloom and fruit. A month after they are finish fruiting their dead and dry enough for the fireplace. Is this the same thing happening here?
 
Brick Top

Brick Top

New Member
Longtimetoker said:
An excellent reply, thank you Brick Top! Your reply has brought up a few more questions but I'm going to ask only one for now concerning the quoted reply above. I understand the need for flushing to prevent salts build up (if to much nutrient has been used) but the part where you say "Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development", I don't understand. Why would flowering increase when the plant switches from one nutrient source, the roots, to another nutrient source, the leaves? Unless this is the plant responding to a "do or die" situations and starts pumping out the flowers to propagate the species. I have seen this happen to Ligustrum and citrus that seem to sense their demise. Before it happens you can pick them out because they are very, overly abundant with bloom and fruit. A month after they are finish fruiting their dead and dry enough for the fireplace. Is this the same thing happening here?
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I don't know if this will answer your question but right now I have a bit of a clouded and rather upset mind to work with, so for the moment it is the best that I can do. Cannabis plants are an annual plant. Their singular purpose to exist is to produce fruits and/or seed to insure future generations and when in flower more and more 'effort' is put into doing just that, to produse fruits or seeds. This process is hormonally induced and begins when the light cycle begins to diminish. Eventually, under conditions related to senescence, the plant will slow photosynthesis on it's own and naturally draw nutrients from fan leaves to relocate energy into reproduction. Since you have plants that are not pollinated the 'effort' does not go to produce seeds but instead there is more production of the individual flowers, seed pods, that make up buds that most people consider to be the actual flower. Annual plants will essentially "flush" themselves, basically to death, all to develop healthy seed, if pollinated, and if not more individual flowers, seed pods, that make up buds. It is a natural and predictable process. Even though they do basically flush themselves to death, by flushing the soil, especially if early enough, it causes the plants to being to 'eat themselves' and go for that last ditch effort to perform their one singular reason to exist. They want to make seeds, as many as possible, so that means more individual flowers, more seed pods, and that means bigger buds because not being pollinated none of the stored food/energy sources are used to produce seeds. It all goes to producing more of what and where the seeds would be produced if pollinated.
 
Longtimetoker

Longtimetoker

Member
Thank you Brick Top! I thought it might be "do or die" or that "last ditch effort you mentioned. Looking around at wildflowers I can see that exact thing happening.
 
Hudsonvalley82

Hudsonvalley82

Well-Known Member
Alright, not to break the immediate conversation at hand, but I have a question that may fall into this threads realm. I have 4 plants that are 10 days into flower. They have been showing pistils since day 4 of flower. I use jacks classic ferts, I have the 20-20-20 all purpose, the 10-30-20 flower, and the houseplant special 15-30-15. Now conventional wisdom would tell me to use the flower 10-30-20 (bloom booster), however, from what I gather on this thread, there is no reason to stray from the 20-20-20 unless the plant tells me to correct? Since Im confused about this whole issue, and since I bought it anyway, I have been using the 15-30-15 (only fed twice since intro to 12/12)? I am seeking some expect advice regarding whether my thinking, actions, and decisions are right/wrong/indifferent. The plants have not shown a negative reaction thus far.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Hudsonvalley82 said:
Alright, not to break the immediate conversation at hand, but I have a question that may fall into this threads realm. I have 4 plants that are 10 days into flower. They have been showing pistils since day 4 of flower. I use jacks classic ferts, I have the 20-20-20 all purpose, the 10-30-20 flower, and the houseplant special 15-30-15. Now conventional wisdom would tell me to use the flower 10-30-20 (bloom booster), however, from what I gather on this thread, there is no reason to stray from the 20-20-20 unless the plant tells me to correct? Since Im confused about this whole issue, and since I bought it anyway, I have been using the 15-30-15 (only fed twice since intro to 12/12)? I am seeking some expect advice regarding whether my thinking, actions, and decisions are right/wrong/indifferent. The plants have not shown a negative reaction thus far.
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If the plant has not shown a negative reaction then leave well enough alone. IOW, read your plants. Popular thought aka "conventional wisdom" is quite a bit different than what YOUR plants actually require. Cannabis flowers and yields based on phytochrome hormone changes and the amount of healthy foliage, not necessarily your NPK ratio. Many of my gardens have yielded extremely well using exclusively a high N food from start to finish. It was my only way to produce and maintain the foliage and in the end, that's all that matters. Don't focus on buds, focus your efforts on producing and maintaining a healthy root system and foliage......think outside of the (conventional) box.

Regarding the storage of nutrients/carbos and such.....I presume cannabis follows the same convention as most plants..... that is to say their main storage unit is roots followed by stems. Your visual storage units would be the base of a radish or carrot, a potato, etc.

Happy Holidaze!
 
R

Rimmer

Member
if you dont mind asking one question, well i aint a experianced grower, but i aint a rookie either, got about 5 grows under my belt but all in soil, now im starting my first passive hydro grow, (hempy). now my dads a oldschool grower like yourself, and keeps talking about Peters Excel or somthing, he told me too use crystals of either 20-10-20 npk or 20-20-20 someone else mentioned 15-15-30, dont see that being too good tho. just would like too get your opinion in what one you think would be best. thanks alot. Rimmer
 
riddleme

riddleme

Well-Known Member
Rimmer said:
if you dont mind asking one question, well i aint a experianced grower, but i aint a rookie either, got about 5 grows under my belt but all in soil, now im starting my first passive hydro grow, (hempy). now my dads a oldschool grower like yourself, and keeps talking about Peters Excel or somthing, he told me too use crystals of either 20-10-20 npk or 20-20-20 someone else mentioned 15-15-30, dont see that being too good tho. just would like too get your opinion in what one you think would be best. thanks alot. Rimmer
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just completed a whole grow with nothing but Peters 20-10-20 came out great
 
A

Aseret

Member
Situation: pH (5.5), Humidity (No measure taken but its humid, Humidity is present), Water Level (reservoir flushed and filled weekly), Temps 75-80 deg, Nutes (GH Gro & Bloom as labeled), and lighting (12/12, 120w Per Plant) is constant.

Problem: Leaves periodically curling like its wilting.

Miscellanea Information: No discoloration in the leaves and plant looks amazingly healthy and lush when not showing the current problem. What else could cause the curling/wilting of the leaves?

Scenario persists for a week then looks healthy and fluctuates back to the problem. Seems to be a repeating process will chow wilting signs for 2-3 days and then healthy for a week and then wilting for 2-3 days and back to healthy.

Perhaps because I have neglected to use GH "Micro" in combination with gro and bloom or something in the flushing/water cycling process? Greater nutes in the beginning followed by weaker and weaker amounts of nutes prior to water change? So too much nutes early on? Or copper deficiency? Is copper considered in the trace elements of GH Micro?

Wilting occurs at the end of the watering cycle not the beginning.

Possible solution: less nutes at beginning water change but add additional nutes about day 4 in the weekly water cycle.

Also just curious as to how I can induce flowering? Anyone know of some form of catalyst in the bud formation process?

IMG_4787.jpgIMG_4786.jpgIMG_4785.jpgIMG_4788.jpg
 
Pippy108

Pippy108

Active Member
Illumination said:
Go to this link and READ IT OVER AND OVER!!! For reals!!! Once it clicks you will amaze yourself!!!
Thanx UB after I read and reread this then slept on it all clicked and I use it as a guide to mix my jack's-dynagro personal recipe fert to cause a near perfect ion exchange cycle...UB is da man!!! PERIOD!!!

Namaste':eyesmoke:
"A state licensed personal grow...Thank you"
Click to expand...
This is essential reading for anyone who's really deep in. A lightbulb flashed.
 
Uncle Ben

Uncle Ben

Well-Known Member
Aseret said:
Situation: pH (5.5), Humidity (No measure taken but its humid, Humidity is present), Water Level (reservoir flushed and filled weekly), Temps 75-80 deg, Nutes (GH Gro & Bloom as labeled), and lighting (12/12, 120w Per Plant) is constant.

Problem: Leaves periodically curling like its wilting.

Miscellanea Information: No discoloration in the leaves and plant looks amazingly healthy and lush when not showing the current problem. What else could cause the curling/wilting of the leaves?

Scenario persists for a week then looks healthy and fluctuates back to the problem. Seems to be a repeating process will chow wilting signs for 2-3 days and then healthy for a week and then wilting for 2-3 days and back to healthy.

Perhaps because I have neglected to use GH "Micro" in combination with gro and bloom or something in the flushing/water cycling process? Greater nutes in the beginning followed by weaker and weaker amounts of nutes prior to water change? So too much nutes early on? Or copper deficiency? Is copper considered in the trace elements of GH Micro?

Wilting occurs at the end of the watering cycle not the beginning.

Possible solution: less nutes at beginning water change but add additional nutes about day 4 in the weekly water cycle.

Also just curious as to how I can induce flowering? Anyone know of some form of catalyst in the bud formation process?
Click to expand...
What's the NPK?

It's a moisture issue regarding the wilting. Your call, see my sig line.

Flowering response is a hormonal thingie dependent on day/night length.

UB
..
 
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