"the claw" need help,its seriously affecting bud size!

FuZZyBUDz

Well-Known Member
could be heat or a nitrogen toxicity? i had the same problem in my DWC bucket, i just backed off the N and it str8end out in a few days.

how many weeks flowering r u tho???
 

super2200

Well-Known Member
This seems to be a common enough problem and theres no direct answer to it,sombody has to know whats causing it!!its dramaticly affectng bud size,from one tank compared to the next!also how do i contact the staff here directly?
What would make you think there is some sort of "staff" lol

your not giving that much info just saying you think your problem is very simple and someone that is getting paid around here should have answers on the spot because its their job. In most cases a .org represents non profit also this looks to me like a forum site with ads to legit companys while this site is not a company but a WEBSITE and if you mean to get in touch with someone because your login does not work or you have issues that are technical then I can understand. Otherwise what you can do is provide a bit more info along with your pics like feeding and light schedules and if you bump every now and then or add another comment eventually someone who has seen this will offer advice. You didnt offer much but got two people telling you it looks like you have PH and temp problem. Check these and give a bit more info and read other posts to see if it matches what you have run into. Hang tight there is a lot of great help here but please dont get upset if it does not come as fast as you like. People are helping here because they are taking the time to read and type while smoking normally not because someone is punching a clock.

what I mean to say is THERE IS NO STAFF, if you are making a large donation I am sure there is a simple way to get in touch with admins as for demanding help its best to just post a question and give as much info as you can and expect a lot of negative replies if you complain about the help
 

patlpp

New Member
Are you growing in hygroton? What nutes and how much? What is the strain? I have/had the same problem. Can't blame the dude for his frustration, this problem sucks. It is suttle and plagues some plants early on. True the immediate diagnosis may be N toxicity or PH. But why? Why is a normal dose of N hurting his plants? (I'm assuming here since the poster did not supply the info) I have had 1 plant in a grow claw, yet other plants in the same grow, in the same environment not display this symptom. I am finding that for me, the issue may be the medium coupled with the strain grown. Some strains may react this way when fed too much compared to other strains. I have a WW now with this problem ( 1st week flower) but an AK-48 right next to it happy as a clam.

So there are reasons people need all the info you can give them RedHot. Fuzzy may have said N toxicity but he couldn't elaborate because he had no further info.
We need medium, lights, distance from canopy, medium, nutes, PH, supps you use. Report of root structure if possible. Thanks
 

dangledo

Well-Known Member
looks like a sativa dominate plant. usually finicky feeders, looks like overdose of ferts to me.:leaf:
 
lights, distance from canopy, medium, nutes, PH, supps

Lights-600+400 watt (x2) in a series with another 20 pot tank
Cool tubes (with their own exhasut) bout 10" away
Medium- Clay pebbles(drip feed hydroponic)
"Vitalink Bloom part A+B" + "Big bud"- using the lower end of the scale because the strains strawberry cough,sativa so its sensative to ferts,also its only a few of the plants in the same tank have "the claw" and the rest are fine,maybe a rootbound situation??havnt checked yet,im a bit scetchy taking the plant out at this stage,their bout 4 foot and in the 6th week flowering(takes 9 weeks for SC),all the pots are fixed to a certain size so i wont be able to transplant them to bigger ones,
Ph- 5.5-6
EC-1-1.2
Vitamines-the stated dose(lower scale)

Sorry would generally add this info in just thought there would be direct answers to it!
 

patlpp

New Member
Over-fed? That may be true but why? Why only a couple plants out of the entire crop utilizing the same reservoir? He went to the trouble of stating all the parameters and I think by giving this info, I can now assess what may be wrong other than the generic "It s overfed".

I am no expert so take all this with a grain of salt. I am a mega-grower wannabe.

First off, This is hydro, not soil.
By the leaves becoming flacid indicates an osmotic imbalance where water retention is being lost. So, the salinity/nute concentration of the water must be too high, sucking up the water from the plant in order to equalize. So Yes, overfert, but not necessarily too much nutrient, since other plants are not effected at the same EC levels, which are nominal. The overfert is just these few plants. Why just these few plants?

1) Hydroton , when used by itself and with a drip system, has a tendency to channel the nutrient flow and not disperse evenly so root growth follows these erratic channels. This causes concentrated pockets of high salinity within the grow area. This would also be a random event so it would not effect all plants in the same way. The companys' own brochure states:
"In drip irrigation systems the pellets can be mixed with a medium with better capillary action so the feed is dissipated broadly through to prevent salt build-up."

2) Hydroton will form highly positive ion charges, disrupting normal ionic exchanges, exacerbating the salinity issue. The medium works fine for a few weeks when new, but will build up this ionic charge over time and is not removed with normal cleaning.
They recommend this:
TIP:

"When washing the hydroton before re-using it, it is recommended that it be cleansed with a negatively charged flushing mix, such as Clearex, to neutralize its high positive ion charge."

Clearex will neutralize these charges. I have researched other vendors such as GH, Advanced and Grotek but they do not explicitly state that it is a negative charge solution so the effect these alternate solutions have on charged hydroton is unknown to me. Maybe they do ,I don't know. Here is an excerpt from Botanicare Clearex:


Clearex
A common cause of crop failure can be traced to the build up of nutrient salt deposits in soils or soilless grow media. High salt concentrations in the soil solution cause a shrinkage of plant cell protoplasm away from the cell wall as a result of osmosis. This condition, known as plasmolysis, can eventually lead to irreversible wilting.
Clearex is a scientifically formulated isotonic drench solution, which effectively binds with the excess nutrient salt and safely leaches it from the soil. Leaching with tap or deionized water can lead to hyptonic conditions which cause cell lycis with outflow of essential electrolytes and nutrients. This causes tissue damage leading to serious pathogen disorders such as bacterial and fungal infections. Clearex is isotonic, therefore, it creates a safe osmotic environment which allows plant cells to maintain an optimal turgor pressure during treatment.


You will note that not ALL the leaves are cupping, they seem random ? If it were a massive over-nute issue, most of the plant would cup and more plants would also, provided they are the same strain.

I also drip for veg state and (did) use 100% hydroton in 2 gallon buckets. This capillary issue is non-existent in smaller size containers. I have experienced this problem first hand, and found that a good flush with the right agent and to revert to 50% nutes for a week remedies the cupping. Also, in your next grow, if you still will be using drippers, mix the hydroton with CoCo. Whenever hydroton is used in larger vessels, it is recommended to mix with another medium.
 

SickSadLittleWorld

Well-Known Member
Over-fed? That may be true but why? Why only a couple plants out of the entire crop utilizing the same reservoir? He went to the trouble of stating all the parameters and I think by giving this info, I can now assess what may be wrong other than the generic "It s overfed".

I am no expert so take all this with a grain of salt. I am a mega-grower wannabe.

First off, This is hydro, not soil.
By the leaves becoming flacid indicates an osmotic imbalance where water retention is being lost. So, the salinity/nute concentration of the water must be too high, sucking up the water from the plant in order to equalize. So Yes, overfert, but not necessarily too much nutrient, since other plants are not effected at the same EC levels, which are nominal. The overfert is just these few plants. Why just these few plants?

1) Hydroton , when used by itself and with a drip system, has a tendency to channel the nutrient flow and not disperse evenly so root growth follows these erratic channels. This causes concentrated pockets of high salinity within the grow area. This would also be a random event so it would not effect all plants in the same way. The companys' own brochure states:
"In drip irrigation systems the pellets can be mixed with a medium with better capillary action so the feed is dissipated broadly through to prevent salt build-up."

2) Hydroton will form highly positive ion charges, disrupting normal ionic exchanges, exacerbating the salinity issue. The medium works fine for a few weeks when new, but will build up this ionic charge over time and is not removed with normal cleaning.
They recommend this:
TIP:

"When washing the hydroton before re-using it, it is recommended that it be cleansed with a negatively charged flushing mix, such as Clearex, to neutralize its high positive ion charge."

Clearex will neutralize these charges. I have researched other vendors such as GH, Advanced and Grotek but they do not explicitly state that it is a negative charge solution so the effect these alternate solutions have on charged hydroton is unknown to me. Maybe they do ,I don't know. Here is an excerpt from Botanicare Clearex:


Clearex
A common cause of crop failure can be traced to the build up of nutrient salt deposits in soils or soilless grow media. High salt concentrations in the soil solution cause a shrinkage of plant cell protoplasm away from the cell wall as a result of osmosis. This condition, known as plasmolysis, can eventually lead to irreversible wilting.
Clearex is a scientifically formulated isotonic drench solution, which effectively binds with the excess nutrient salt and safely leaches it from the soil. Leaching with tap or deionized water can lead to hyptonic conditions which cause cell lycis with outflow of essential electrolytes and nutrients. This causes tissue damage leading to serious pathogen disorders such as bacterial and fungal infections. Clearex is isotonic, therefore, it creates a safe osmotic environment which allows plant cells to maintain an optimal turgor pressure during treatment.


You will note that not ALL the leaves are cupping, they seem random ? If it were a massive over-nute issue, most of the plant would cup and more plants would also, provided they are the same strain.

I also drip for veg state and (did) use 100% hydroton in 2 gallon buckets. This capillary issue is non-existent in smaller size containers. I have experienced this problem first hand, and found that a good flush with the right agent and to revert to 50% nutes for a week remedies the cupping. Also, in your next grow, if you still will be using drippers, mix the hydroton with CoCo. Whenever hydroton is used in larger vessels, it is recommended to mix with another medium.
Overcomplicate things much? Back off the ppm a bit, its as simple as that. You're just making a very simple fix very confusing.
 

cowboylogic

Well-Known Member
Looks like too much N to me. Every plant is different. One may be doing fine in the same system as 20 more that are not doing so well. I agree with Sick. Back off the food for a few days and dont overcomplicate things. Oh ya, the reason it is affecting bud size, its trying to grow new vegative growth to use up the extra N instead of concentrating on flower development.
 

johnny961

Well-Known Member
Every time i grow i always have 1 plant that does this i do not know why & i grow in soil i agree with the to much nitrogen as i stop givin that plant n it corrects the problem.
 

patlpp

New Member
Overcomplicate things much? Back off the ppm a bit, its as simple as that. You're just making a very simple fix very confusing.
So does that mean back off on the nutes to ALL his plants? he has a common res. If I didn't show WHY than it would have happened again. The guy is smarter than "just back off on the nutes" Back off from an EC of 1? I thought I would give him more insight.

My fix wasn't "back off on the nutes" it was FLUSH and back off on the nutes, and mix the medium in the future

Cowboy: You are right as you know with the high N. You were the one that discovered my bad plants problem. But my approach is why does it have high N ? I have a WW in my newest grow using the same hydroton that has the same symptom but with 50% less N this time? You can tell too, it is not nearly as green as the one you were involved with. Yet I take this same WW plant and literally remove the hydroton and flush the raw roots and replace with new hydrotron and the problem is gone. That is why I am convinced it is the medium.
 

jawbrodt

Well-Known Member
I've been trying to figure this out, as well. While I agree that it is due to having too much N, I also think there is more to it, than that. I haven't come up with a definite answer yet, but I'm starting to think that the problem is aggravated by lighting, or rather....low/uneven lighting. The plants that do it, are never the ones that are getting nice even lighting, they are the ones that are along the edges, in spots where they grow above the path of direct light from the reflector, or spots where the light doesn't penetrate well. This is just a theory, as it's too early to say for sure, so I'm not going to stake my reputation on it. It's just something that I've been watching, trying to figure out why some are so sensitive, why others are not(plants of the same strain). Maybe it's something as simple as them riding the edge of N toxicity, IDK, but the light sure does seem to have some effect on them. The investigation continues.lol


(I grow in FF soil)
 

johnny961

Well-Known Member
I also have noticed that the claw plant usally ends up turning hermie & as i always grew outside in my unheated garage i started my grow this past year on 12/24/09 when its really cold to finish before it starts heating up in may here when i always started in april fighting heat stress issues all summer. I figuired this year i would emphasize more on my legal garden more when it was time appropriate. Just like jaw said it could be from light distribution too as i havnt figuired it entirely either.
 

patlpp

New Member
I've been trying to figure this out, as well. While I agree that it is due to having too much N, I also think there is more to it, than that. I haven't come up with a definite answer yet, but I'm starting to think that the problem is aggravated by lighting, or rather....low/uneven lighting. The plants that do it, are never the ones that are getting nice even lighting, they are the ones that are along the edges, in spots where they grow above the path of direct light from the reflector, or spots where the light doesn't penetrate well. This is just a theory, as it's too early to say for sure, so I'm not going to stake my reputation on it. It's just something that I've been watching, trying to figure out why some are so sensitive, why others are not(plants of the same strain). Maybe it's something as simple as them riding the edge of N toxicity, IDK, but the light sure does seem to have some effect on them. The investigation continues.lol


(I grow in FF soil)
I also have noticed that the claw plant usally ends up turning hermie & as i always grew outside in my unheated garage i started my grow this past year on 12/24/09 when its really cold to finish before it starts heating up in may here when i always started in april fighting heat stress issues all summer. I figuired this year i would emphasize more on my legal garden more when it was time appropriate. Just like jaw said it could be from light distribution too as i havnt figuired it entirely either.
What did you guys try to do as a fix?

Oh , johnny. I see your avatar NBK . Just love that song "The Future", frickin eerie.
 

jawbrodt

Well-Known Member
What did you guys try to do as a fix?
Well, it's something that I've just started concentrating on, so not much has been tried yet. I have one right now that had "the claw" for the last couple weeks of veg, and I decided to throw it into bloom because it was getting to big to wait for it to recover. When it went through the stretching period, "the claw" went away, and all the new growth looked fine. I assume this was due to the plant using more N than normal, powering the stretch phase. So, I ended up hitting it with some veg fert, and a few days later I started noticing "the claw" coming back, but just on the leaves on the outer edges of the growroom where the light is weakest. So, I'm assuming that the light can bring out "the claw" if it's borderline toxic N levels, and if the levels are higher it'll happen whether the light is even or not. That's what i have so far.LOL

I plan to flush that plant and see if it fixes the problem, which I think it will. Only time will tell. :)
 
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