The capabilities of a simple soil (Outdoor 2023 edition)

weedstoner420 said:

Oh yeah, no worries at all about the long reply.

I'm pretty sure my mom didn't do anything to the soil in their blueberry patch other than mulch with plain hardwood mulch. They had a compost pile, but they only used it on the veggie garden, not the berries or shrubs.

My wife and I live in an urban area with a very small backyard. She is all about composting and building up the soil in the garden beds over top of the native soil. So those blueberries get a mix of food scrap/yard waste compost, with dead leaves for mulch.

The other big difference is my parents' blueberries were densely planted and right next to raspberry and blackberry patches, whereas the blueberries in our yard now are kinda by themselves, just 3 little bushes spaced out and mixed with whatever veggies, herbs, and flowers we've got going that year. Definitely a different rhizosphere in the two gardens, in addition to different soils.

Interesting what you mention about the plants kinda sorting it out for themselves. I was just a kid when my parents started the berry garden, so there very well could have been a year or two in the beginning when they didn't do well. And if we hadn't treated ours, maybe they would have turned around on their own. Climate conditions (temp/humidity/sunlight/etc) are one thing, but I'm in agreement with you that plants have some degree of control over the chemical makeup of the soil, and can work with the microbial life to establish a proper pH over time.

Click to expand...

Mulch, combined with green matter falling from the leaves, will produce some of the best possible compost over time.

Thank you so much for reporting what I just underlined in bold text. That is super interesting because these are the specific pH requirements of the aforementioned berry bushes:

Blackberry: 5.5-6.5
Raspberry: 5.6-6.2
Blueberry: 4.2-5.0

So, going just solely off of pH alone, we can clearly see that it should be "impossible" for Blueberries to grow alongside Blackberries and Raspberries due to the drastic difference in pH requirements.

Yet, how did your parents make it work? Or perhaps, as I've been speculating, it wasn't your parents that did anything special, they simply let things be. I cannot wait to see what happens in a few months to years, and post photographic evidence of these claims.

I mean, with the above pH ranges in mind, how is it possible that those plants ever grew in unison? One or the other should have died if the pH of the entire ground was the same. That implies that the pH of the ground was not the same range, and that there were clearly different pH ranges that enabled all 3 of those types of berries to grow properly.

Again, I'm both happy and thrilled that you posted about this. To me, this demonstrates that the different rhizospheres of the respective berry plants (and the microbes within them) played a critical role in sustaining life, including the regulation of pH.

Though, I'm sure you are right about the possibility it could have been up to a year or two (give or take) for the blueberries to grow properly. I'll be making a post later about the wild berry bushes I have growing next to the creek in my backyard. The Blackberry and Blueberry bushes I bought and planted seem to be struggling. Not dying, but definitely struggling and not looking as happy as the Strawberries, and various other plants.

I anticipated this. What I need to wait on is for the appropriate microbes to colonize the rhizosphere of the individual plants, then things will perk right up in no time at all, without the need for me to even intervene. Remember the photos I posted of all the mushrooms and mold growing on the various decaying branches and logs back here? There are fungi everywhere out here. I simply need to wait for the fungi, and microbes specific to the success of the blueberries to colonize the rhizosphere of the Blueberries, then things will get back on track. Could take weeks, months, or even years. But I am willing to wait.

In the meantime, I will be photographing my results and posting them to continue my transparency with every and anyone reading this thread. The end result, regardless of how long it takes, will be that I will do nothing but sow seeds, transplant, and prune. Once again, thank you for posting the experiences of both you and your parents. Has me looking forward to this experiment even more now.

All the best!

What's up RIU?

Sorry for the lack of updates. Between my family, working full time, and actually maintaining the garden, I don't have much spare time. So, since I have the next days off, I'll be making a few different update posts. Here goes!

A little over a week later and I'm starting to see growth on tons of my transplants already. Check it out.







I have loads of happy Strawberry plants at the moment. Some of them are still taking root, but the majority of the 75 Strawberry roots I planted look like this now.

As of today, God as my witness, I have still applied zero water since starting this project. As for amendments, I did buy a 4-4-4 amendment blend, but I've only used it on a handful of the tree transplants, and some of my tomato transplants. But nothing more. It is a 4lb bag and I haven't even used 1lb of it. I am starting to doubt if I'll even use the entire bag, at this rate. My bag of TM-7 is also still completely sealed. But time will tell.

Now, those of you that have read up to this point and have been commenting, the Strawberries being Nitrogen hogs is definitely a valid concern. But not in a closed loop system like what I have in my backyard. The fact is, the majority of gardening and plant advice goes completely out the window when you have a completely closed loop system like this backyard. The majority of gardening advice is catered to people that interfere with the system, either through synthetics or even organic amendments.

Take a look at the photos below.




See all those clovers? There are loads of them littered all throughout the yard. I mean, just go back and look at all of the photos I have taken up to this post. Sure, I get a good amount of rainfall in this location to the point where I have yet to need to water manually. However, rainfall does not equate to nutrition, Nitrogen specifically. So, why is everything so green?

There are loads of natural sources of Nitrogen within my garden judging by how green and colorful everything looks. If I had to guess, I have absolutely no idea just how much Nitrogen fixators I have back here. I still have to actually identify all of the native wild plant life out here before I can know for sure, but I can definitely tell just based on how green and lush everything is out here.

In fact, case in point, I just found another Nitrogen fixator in the yard.



It may be difficult to see in this photo, but if you look closely, the plant with the white flowers in it is definitely a pea/legume of some sort. You'll notice how the tendrils are attached to the blades of grass, and for those experienced in growing peas, you'll notice how similar the white flowers look to peas. That is definitely some type of bean/legume plant and those are also all around the yard.

It has only been a few months and I'm still discovering loads of new plants all over the place. Judging by the greenery alone out here, I'm sure there are loads more nitrogen fixating plants out here that will continue to provide Nitrogen to anything I plant out here. If you look closely, there are tons of clovers around the Strawberry plants I photographed above.




The Peach and Mulberry trees are already starting to show signs of coming back to life! Can't wait to see what these look like in the next few months and years.




Some of my Raspberry transplants are also growing leaves. Only been a week and things are already starting to pop up. I'm thrilled!



Loads of random flowers all over the place too. I still haven't even mowed the lawn and have no intention of doing so. I want to disturb the natural life here as little as possible, doing nothing more but putting plants into the ground, and leaving everything the fuck alone. Plants have grown just fine all by themselves before we came along. I simply want to facilitate what already exists, and is already a perfect closed loop system, then leave it alone.

This should be our ultimate goal as living soil growers. We create the life in the soil, then help form the closed loop system, then we leave it alone and allow it to do its thing.

Not everything is taking kindly to being transplanted though. 2 of my Blackberry transplants, as well as my Fig Tree appear to be suffering quite a bit.





Quite common for transplants that have lots of vegetation on them like the Blackberries and Fig tree did. The plants I put into the ground devoid of foliage are currently growing now, whereas the plants that came with foliage on them are still struggling along. This is why you see the advice to prune half of the leaves on new clones/transplants when you purchase them from stores.

That actually isn't 'stoner science' and is grounded in reality. As we know, plants grow above ground (foliage) and below ground (roots). A plant directs and distributes its energy into growing roots, foliage, or a combination of the two.

Upon a new plant being transplanted, the first thing the plant wants to do is spread its roots. Problem is, when the plant still have leaves on it, the plant has to share its energy between root growth, foliage growth, and maintaining the existing foliage. The more foliage on the plant during transplant, the more the plant has to worry about maintaining and growing.

What I like to do is identify any and all leaves that are not 100% green and healthy, then remove them and "top dress" with the dying leaves, to simulate natural leaf fall. You should have at least 1/3-1/2 of the leaves left on the plant, some plants require more or less pruning, dependent on size and how many leaves look like they're in bad shape.

Then, observe them for the next few days.

- If there are no more dying leaves, great! All you have to do is wait more.

- If more leaves are dying, continue to remove them and place them on top of your soil. Eventually, as the roots begin to grow and spread, you'll see new foliage form on the plant and things will continue as normal. Once again, depending on the plant type, size of the plant, and health of the plant, this process can take anywhere between a few days, to over a month.

The online nursery I bought these plants from removed most, if not all of the foliage from the plants I ordered. Removing dying foliage from plants prior to and during transplant is not the same as the defoliation practice you see some people talk about on these forums.

Take another look at the photo of the fig tree above. The majority of the leaves are dead, or in the process of dying.



Pretty much all of the leaves have been removed. However, if you zoom in, you can see that there are a handful of new leaves/shoots that I have left alone. This will ensure that the plants are able to focus their energy on spreading their roots, NOT growing new leaves, or attempting to sustain dying leaves. Now, I know what you might be thinking.

"But Kratos, how can the plants go through photosynthesis without any leaves? How can plants possibly grow without the leaves that facilitate photosynthesis?"

Believe it or not, some roots are capable of photosynthesis all by themselves!

"The amount of photosynthesis that can occur in the leaves is directly related to the amount of water that the roots can absorb. A small root system can only support the photosynthesis of a small canopy, and roots can only grow larger if they have enough energy (sugar) provided by the leaves. In this way, the tree must balance its above ground and below ground growth."

and

"Plants’ loss of shoot activates photosynthesis in roots."

The key takeaway here is the word balance. We are not removing leaves for no reason after transplant. We are doing so to speed along the balance of above and below ground growth, enabling the plants to focus on their roots and get established before anything else happens. These leaves certainly would have died off all on their own. However, instead of waiting for the plant to do it by itself, we get involved and speed things along for the sake of the plant. One instance where it is okay for man to interfere with the plants, is during a transplant.

We aren't "defoliating" or wantonly removing leaves, we are reducing the canopy above ground to match the size of the roots below ground, enabling a balance that will ensure the plants can focus on their roots before anything else happens. The green roots that grow will have the chlorophyll and chloroplast necessary for the plant to still go through photosynthesis, even in the absence of leaves.

You'll notice that I put all of those leaves near the base of the tree, where they would fall naturally on their own to decompose and help the plant/tree recover. I only interfered to speed along the natural process that would have taken place without me being present. By doing this, now the tree does not have to wait for the leaves to fall. I have plucked them myself, and now the tree can move on to recovery, instead of waiting for the leaves to fall.



Next, I covered the leaves with pine needles. Both so I can ensure the leaves stay in place, and also to provide mulch. I then took a piss all over the pile, supplying nitrogen to speed along the decomposing process. Hopefully this poor tree doesn't suffer for too long.



Speaking of defoliation. Do not do it. Total stoner science. As I cited above, removing leaves can sometimes be helpful, but only prior to and during transplant, AND to maintain the balance of the foliage:root ratio. And again, during transplant!

Slight defoliation can work indoors, but what most people refer to as "defoliation" is actually nothing more than simple pruning.

A good rule of thumb is that you should always prune to ensure the entire bottom 1/3rd of the plant is completely bare.

This ensures proper airflow for the plant, produces a decent amount of leaf mould (and compost, by proxy), and prevents the "low hanging fruit" that we often hear about metaphorically.

Any of you that have grown and trimmed weed before, you know that the bottom nugs suck. You always end up putting them in your trim pile to blast them, and they are a complete waste of time. By ensuring that the bottom 1/3rd of your plants are completely bare and pruned, you are ensuring that the top nugs get even fatter. You are also ensuring there is little to no disease or pests, both of which tend to manifest themselves at the bottom of the plant due to a lack of light, and not the top.

Now, onto the removal of leaves during flower. This is only something that is done in an indoor grow with an indoor light source. Fact is, the sun is, well, the sun. The sun can provide more than enough light to penetrate through leaves and a good amount of canopy. Indoor lights cannot. This is why you see people removing leaves from the top of the plant, to ensure that light hits the below the canopy. But when you're outdoors, this rarely needs to be done.

Indoors or outdoors, the bottom 1/3rd of the plant should always be bare. Period.

However, what happens to the top part of the plant is going to be entirely dependent on whether or not you are growing indoors or outdoors. Outdoors, you can pretty much just leave it alone. Indoors though? You'll need to remove some of the fan leaves to ensure that your limited indoor light source is being used most optimally. The sun is infinite, so there is no need to remove leaves to ensure the entire plant gets light. Indoors though? Limited light, which means we have to make an extra effort to do things "optimally". This is why transitioning from indoors to outdoors can fuck with people sometimes. Outdoors, and nature by proxy, is infinite. Indoors if finite.

I'll be back later to post more updates and information. Right now, I have to get out in the garden and check up on things, and see if my poor fig tree is doing any better. I anticipate it'll be like that for a little bit until the roots spread, however.

Thanks for tuning in, and all the best!

just a quick mention.
my mum n dad just baught me one of these for my birthday, im thinking you can knock them up useing a 55gallon oil drum painted black, a few holes drilled in the center of the lid n base, then just rolled around every few days. compost in 6 to 12 weeks, depending on temprature is awsome and very wellcome for top dressing the plants.
at that rate of decomposition, you can make some perfect composts to match the requiirementrs of the differant plants as you grow along, saveing you a fortune too. im saving up all my bannana peels for a high potassium feed, add some blood meal and bat guano to it, all the trace elements from seaweed from the beach. i think im off to a great start next year. but will be interesting to find out just haw fast this thing composts, it claims 4 to 8 weeks and you have 160liters of compost, so just have to wait n see.
but you could have them laying around and give them a good kick every few days to keep them churning over.
top dressings to match your plant/bush.tree

go go kid said:

just a quick mention.
my mum n dad just baught me one of these for my birthday, im thinking you can knock them up useing a 55gallon oil drum painted black, a few holes drilled in the center of the lid n base, then just rolled around every few days. compost in 6 to 12 weeks, depending on temprature is awsome and very wellcome for top dressing the plants.
at that rate of decomposition, you can make some perfect composts to match the requiirementrs of the differant plants as you grow along, saveing you a fortune too. im saving up all my bannana peels for a high potassium feed, add some blood meal and bat guano to it, all the trace elements from seaweed from the beach. i think im off to a great start next year. but will be interesting to find out just haw fast this thing composts, it claims 4 to 8 weeks and you have 160liters of compost, so just have to wait n see.
but you could have them laying around and give them a good kick every few days to keep them churning over.
top dressings to match your plant/bush.tree

Click to expand...

I've heard great things about those tumblers, only issue I see people bring up is the size and how you don't get too much if you're running a large scale set up. That said, anything is better than nothing. And the tumbler is awesome for aerating the compost and ensuring that things stay on schedule and don't go anaerobic or dormant. And those claims are correct, you can get compost in that time frame for sure if you're consistent.

This tumbler is great as a startup. However, I believe the idea should be to get away from the tumbler eventually. The idea should be to use the dying and decayed leaves from current and old plants. Eventually, you'll get to a point where you need no outside source of nutrition, and won't even need a compost pile.

Each individual plant will have compost from it without any work, due to all the decaying organic matter falling from the plants naturally. Not trying to sound like a dismissive jerk, just trying to reiterate what the end all goal should be. A perfect closed loop system without the need for any outside work or inputs.

That tumbler you posted above is certainly an amazing start for achieving this goal though. Especially if you incorporate Comfrey 14 scraps into the mix.

Thanks for the post, and all the best to you sir!

kratos015 said:

Not everything is taking kindly to being transplanted though. 2 of my Blackberry transplants, as well as my Fig Tree appear to be suffering quite a bit.

View attachment 5282840

View attachment 5282843

Quite common for transplants that have lots of vegetation on them like the Blackberries and Fig tree did. The plants I put into the ground devoid of foliage are currently growing now, whereas the plants that came with foliage on them are still struggling along. This is why you see the advice to prune half of the leaves on new clones/transplants when you purchase them from stores.

That actually isn't 'stoner science' and is grounded in reality. As we know, plants grow above ground (foliage) and below ground (roots). A plant directs and distributes its energy into growing roots, foliage, or a combination of the two.

Upon a new plant being transplanted, the first thing the plant wants to do is spread its roots. Problem is, when the plant still have leaves on it, the plant has to share its energy between root growth, foliage growth, and maintaining the existing foliage. The more foliage on the plant during transplant, the more the plant has to worry about maintaining and growing.

What I like to do is identify any and all leaves that are not 100% green and healthy, then remove them and "top dress" with the dying leaves, to simulate natural leaf fall. You should have at least 1/3-1/2 of the leaves left on the plant, some plants require more or less pruning, dependent on size and how many leaves look like they're in bad shape.

Then, observe them for the next few days.

- If there are no more dying leaves, great! All you have to do is wait more.

- If more leaves are dying, continue to remove them and place them on top of your soil. Eventually, as the roots begin to grow and spread, you'll see new foliage form on the plant and things will continue as normal. Once again, depending on the plant type, size of the plant, and health of the plant, this process can take anywhere between a few days, to over a month.

The online nursery I bought these plants from removed most, if not all of the foliage from the plants I ordered. Removing dying foliage from plants prior to and during transplant is not the same as the defoliation practice you see some people talk about on these forums.

Take another look at the photo of the fig tree above. The majority of the leaves are dead, or in the process of dying.

View attachment 5282842

Pretty much all of the leaves have been removed. However, if you zoom in, you can see that there are a handful of new leaves/shoots that I have left alone. This will ensure that the plants are able to focus their energy on spreading their roots, NOT growing new leaves, or attempting to sustain dying leaves. Now, I know what you might be thinking.

"But Kratos, how can the plants go through photosynthesis without any leaves? How can plants possibly grow without the leaves that facilitate photosynthesis?"

Believe it or not, some roots are capable of photosynthesis all by themselves!

"The amount of photosynthesis that can occur in the leaves is directly related to the amount of water that the roots can absorb. A small root system can only support the photosynthesis of a small canopy, and roots can only grow larger if they have enough energy (sugar) provided by the leaves. In this way, the tree must balance its above ground and below ground growth."

and

"Plants’ loss of shoot activates photosynthesis in roots."

The key takeaway here is the word balance. We are not removing leaves for no reason after transplant. We are doing so to speed along the balance of above and below ground growth, enabling the plants to focus on their roots and get established before anything else happens. These leaves certainly would have died off all on their own. However, instead of waiting for the plant to do it by itself, we get involved and speed things along for the sake of the plant. One instance where it is okay for man to interfere with the plants, is during a transplant.

We aren't "defoliating" or wantonly removing leaves, we are reducing the canopy above ground to match the size of the roots below ground, enabling a balance that will ensure the plants can focus on their roots before anything else happens. The green roots that grow will have the chlorophyll and chloroplast necessary for the plant to still go through photosynthesis, even in the absence of leaves.

You'll notice that I put all of those leaves near the base of the tree, where they would fall naturally on their own to decompose and help the plant/tree recover. I only interfered to speed along the natural process that would have taken place without me being present. By doing this, now the tree does not have to wait for the leaves to fall. I have plucked them myself, and now the tree can move on to recovery, instead of waiting for the leaves to fall.

View attachment 5282841

Next, I covered the leaves with pine needles. Both so I can ensure the leaves stay in place, and also to provide mulch. I then took a piss all over the pile, supplying nitrogen to speed along the decomposing process. Hopefully this poor tree doesn't suffer for too long.



Speaking of defoliation. Do not do it. Total stoner science. As I cited above, removing leaves can sometimes be helpful, but only prior to and during transplant, AND to maintain the balance of the foliage:root ratio. And again, during transplant!

Slight defoliation can work indoors, but what most people refer to as "defoliation" is actually nothing more than simple pruning.

A good rule of thumb is that you should always prune to ensure the entire bottom 1/3rd of the plant is completely bare.

This ensures proper airflow for the plant, produces a decent amount of leaf mould (and compost, by proxy), and prevents the "low hanging fruit" that we often hear about metaphorically.

Any of you that have grown and trimmed weed before, you know that the bottom nugs suck. You always end up putting them in your trim pile to blast them, and they are a complete waste of time. By ensuring that the bottom 1/3rd of your plants are completely bare and pruned, you are ensuring that the top nugs get even fatter. You are also ensuring there is little to no disease or pests, both of which tend to manifest themselves at the bottom of the plant due to a lack of light, and not the top.

Now, onto the removal of leaves during flower. This is only something that is done in an indoor grow with an indoor light source. Fact is, the sun is, well, the sun. The sun can provide more than enough light to penetrate through leaves and a good amount of canopy. Indoor lights cannot. This is why you see people removing leaves from the top of the plant, to ensure that light hits the below the canopy. But when you're outdoors, this rarely needs to be done.

Indoors or outdoors, the bottom 1/3rd of the plant should always be bare. Period.

However, what happens to the top part of the plant is going to be entirely dependent on whether or not you are growing indoors or outdoors. Outdoors, you can pretty much just leave it alone. Indoors though? You'll need to remove some of the fan leaves to ensure that your limited indoor light source is being used most optimally. The sun is infinite, so there is no need to remove leaves to ensure the entire plant gets light. Indoors though? Limited light, which means we have to make an extra effort to do things "optimally". This is why transitioning from indoors to outdoors can fuck with people sometimes. Outdoors, and nature by proxy, is infinite. Indoors if finite.

I'll be back later to post more updates and information. Right now, I have to get out in the garden and check up on things, and see if my poor fig tree is doing any better. I anticipate it'll be like that for a little bit until the roots spread, however.

Thanks for tuning in, and all the best!

Click to expand...

I think they'll pull through for sure.

Remember what they say about raspberries and blackberries - first year they sleep, second year they creep, third year they leap!

So, not sure if anyone remembers how I pointed out I was going to plant a few things on the other side of the creek and "throw them to the wolves", so to speak?

Interestingly enough, the raspberry I planted on the other side of the creek appears to be doing better than the ones on the house side of the creek.



It is hard to see the leaf shoot on the top of the stick due to poor camera focus, but this is the best looking one out of all of them.

I'm going to spend the next few months analyzing the differences between the sides of the creek. If you look at the photos in the first page where I show both sides of the creek, the side closest to my house is filled with various weeds and wildlife whereas the side on the other end of the creek is mostly flat.

My first guess is due to the fact the other side is mostly flat, in terms of growth and land, whereas the side closest to my house is more "hilly".

So, the water flows different, and seeps into the ground different. As with the Blueberry experiment, I'll be posting the results as time goes on.

Speaking of berries, check out these native berry plants that are literally littered across the entire creek!




These things are literally everywhere. Research has resulted in me limiting this type of berry to a wild Blackberry, or more specifically, Dewberries, which are also a type of Blackberry that was apparently used in the cross to create Boysenberries. From the looks of these flowers, I'll have buckets full of berries within the next 4 weeks or so, then I'll know for sure what kind of berries these are.

weedstoner420 said:

I think they'll pull through for sure.

Remember what they say about raspberries and blackberries - first year they sleep, second year they creep, third year they leap!

Click to expand...

That's awesome, I've never heard that saying before, I'll definitely have to keep that one in mind haha!

Thing is, all the berry plants are "3rd year" berries, so they should produce some fruits eventually this year once they recover. However, the plan is for the berries to mostly spread this year, and I'll get the biggest harvests the following years after this year when I planted them.

Still completely new to growing berries, so a lot for me to learn and figure out along the way, and having you guys post things like this is super helpful for me, and hopefully others that may be reading this thread.

Appreciate the post good sir!

have you tested the soil for deficancies for each fruit your growing? also, your growing cultivated plants, in theory they should thrive, but they may be suseptable to certain diseases and things..
both the srtrawberys and rasberys are invasive species, so as long as the soil is ok, there shouldend be any problems, but it might be worth a quick check

asparagass is the same, the first year they get setytled in, second year you can take a few , but the therd year to 5th year, there fair game and will last you over 20 years a plot, we have loads of them around the property, both in and out, well worth the wait

I am following along as I am very interested in learning more about soil and how to keep a healthy soil in general.

couple questions:
1. Can you give me the “Comfrey 14 scraps” definition…what does that term mean if it was the 1st time you heard it? I tried google lol.
2. I was told at one point that hardwood type compost is good and pine/fir/needle compost was not desirable so keep them out of the compost bin. I see you have used pine needles in various ways all over the place. Is it that they don’t break down quickly or should I be composting them with the rest of my compost?

cool place. really great you have a water source

ooof-da said:

Can you give me the “Comfrey 14 scraps” definition…what does that term mean if it was the 1st time you heard it? I tried google lol.

Click to expand...

I think that's referring to Bocking 14, which is a cultivar (like a strain) of comfrey that is sterile. It can spread through its roots but it doesn't make seeds. I think that's so it doesn't spread and take over your yard...

weedstoner420 said:

I think that's referring to Bocking 14, which is a cultivar (like a strain) of comfrey that is sterile. It can spread through its roots but it doesn't make seeds. I think that's so it doesn't spread and take over your yard...

Click to expand...

Thx

go go kid said:

have you tested the soil for deficancies for each fruit your growing? also, your growing cultivated plants, in theory they should thrive, but they may be suseptable to certain diseases and things..
both the srtrawberys and rasberys are invasive species, so as long as the soil is ok, there shouldend be any problems, but it might be worth a quick check

Click to expand...

I plan on not worrying about testing the soil for a year or so, see just how fertile and productive the land is without me doing anything to it at all.

With how huge the trees in the yard next to the creek are, the roots of those likely span most of, if not the entire acreage. As a result, I should have a soil web below the ground that is older than my father, if not my grandparents. I plan on doing nothing but sitting back and observing things for the next year or two, nothing more. My only intervention with the ecosystem back there will be applying mulch, pruning, and harvesting.

The TyTy nursery I purchased everything from is located in Georgia, so I figured it might take a few months, possibly an entire year until the plants become acclimated to Alabama. Everything seems to be doing awesome so far, the only thing that is struggling is the Fig Tree, but that should recover in due time.

All the best!

go go kid said:

asparagass is the same, the first year they get setytled in, second year you can take a few , but the therd year to 5th year, there fair game and will last you over 20 years a plot, we have loads of them around the property, both in and out, well worth the wait

Click to expand...

Funny you mention that, I actually got 10 Asparagus crowns that are said to be 2 years old already. Any advice on those? Do they grow similar to raspberries in the sense they produce new shoots from the roots? Looking forward to seeing how those do, I absolutely love asparagus. Make a sauce made out of mayo, mustard, and a little bit of lemon juice and I can munch on that shit all day!

ooof-da said:

I am following along as I am very interested in learning more about soil and how to keep a healthy soil in general.

couple questions:
1. Can you give me the “Comfrey 14 scraps” definition…what does that term mean if it was the 1st time you heard it? I tried google lol.
2. I was told at one point that hardwood type compost is good and pine/fir/needle compost was not desirable so keep them out of the compost bin. I see you have used pine needles in various ways all over the place. Is it that they don’t break down quickly or should I be composting them with the rest of my compost?

cool place. really great you have a water source.

Click to expand...

Happy to help! To answer your questions

1) As weedstoner420 already pointed out, it is so it doesn't completely overtake your yard. Comfrey grows like a weed, and its roots can get 8-10ft deep with a 3 ft wide radius. Until a closed loop system is created where the microbes are in full control, other plants will suffer due to a lack of nutrition and water from the comfrey leeching everything from the ground.

That said, even if the Comfrey does overtake your yard, each Comfrey plant will have its own massive root zone and, by proxy, an equally massive soil web filled with microbes. Each individual type of plant (tomato, cannabis, peppers, etc) will attract different microbes based on the individual plant and the specific terpenes the plants and their roots exude.

"Different plants attract different cross-sections of the bacteria and fungi in the soil, initially based on the composition of the unique root exudates from each plant. Thus, plants mostly attract those microorganisms that are beneficial to plants and exclude those that are potentially pathogenic."

Microbes, just like the humble little earthworm, are responsible for so much more than we give them credit for. Yes, it is true that Comfrey will overtake your yard. And yes, it is true that newly transplanted plants (cannabis, tomato, etc) may suffer for a little bit because of this. But they will not die. Let's compare tomatoes to comfrey, for example. Say a specific type of microbe only attaches to tomato roots, but not comfrey. Those microbes will not allow the host plant to die. Remember, in a closed loop self-sustaining environment, all of the individual plant's roots, microbes, bugs, and even large animals are all in constant communication with each other via terpenes.

Eventually, everything will grow and live together in perfect symbiosis and harmony. The catch? We have to be patient and do nothing until this happens. Could take weeks, months, or even over a year. But we have to restrain ourselves and do nothing, while allowing the microbes to do everything. This is why gardens never become "closed loop" or "self-sustaining". We see plants suffering and spring into action, desperately applying organic inputs, compost teas, trying to influence the pH, on and on and on. By doing this, we may correct the one plant that was initially suffering, but we have upset the balance of things below the ground (soil web) and as a result, other plants will begin to suffer from our intervention.

2) What you bring up concerning pine/fir needles is a bit of a half-truth. When they are green, they have an acidic pH between 3.0-4.0, which can interfere with a compost bin. But only at first. Eventually, the needles turn from green to brown, and this issue becomes nonexistent. You'll notice that the needles I'm using are brown, and that I only began raking them up in the weeks prior to spring after they have not only turned color but have also produced compost as a result. If you look back to the photo I posted of the pile of pine needles that fell from the trees, you'll see all the black compost below. Those are perfectly safe to use, both as mulch, and in a compost pile.

In short, pine needles are perfectly safe to use so long as they are brown and not green. If they are green, simply leave them alone until they become brown and you'll be good to go. You can in fact mix them into compost piles, just like you can with wood chips. But I've always found it is best to use wood chips and/or needles as mulch instead. The woodchips/needles will eventually decompose into compost, while helping to retain water on top of the fact.



As for how to create and keep a healthy soil? If I could outline a step-by-step process to creating a self-sustaining closed loop soil system, it would be as follows:

Indoors

1) Create and use a raised bed instead of individual plants, if at all possible. Let's compare a 4x4x1 bed to that of 4 individual 7-gallon pots. In pots, your soil web is limited to the size of the pot. In a raised bed, the entire bed is the soil web. This is why you see people get such amazing results using beds instead of pots. Procure the ingredients necessary to fill a raised bed with a good soil. Spend top dollar on the finest compost you can buy. Look on Craigslist for people selling earthworm castings, you'd be surprised. When I lived in SoCal, I had people selling worm castings 1/2 mile away from my house and didn't even know about it for years.

2) Grow your plants in the raised bed. Most of us here are interested in growing pot exclusively, so grow your first batch of plants in the raised bed. Buy clover seeds, or any other kind of micro green to grow in unison. Every single last branch and leaf you remove from the plants should go on top of the soil in the bed. No exceptions. Eventually, these branches and leaves will fully decompose into your soil, providing both nutrition and compost. When you harvest, cut from the base of the plant and do not under any circumstances remove the plant by the roots. The roots will eventually decompose over time, do not remove them from the closed loop system we are trying to create.

3) Dig as small of a hole as possible next to the old plant's stump and transplant your next crop's plants into said holes. Trim your plants as normal. Save all fan leaves, stems, and branches, then throw them on top of your soil bed.

4) Rinse and repeat. Within 3-4 grows, you will not need to purchase another single item, and will only need to "top dress" with the "trash" from the plants you've harvested. You have now successfully created a self-sustaining closed loop system, where the "trash" from the last harvest's plants produces nutrition and compost for the next generation of plants. This bed will last you for multiple years. Just check out any of Northwood's journals on here for confirmation.

Outdoors

Much easier because we aren't constrained by space indoors, nor in a soil bed.

1) Same as indoors, except we simply dig a 1 cu.ft. hole and fill it with soil (1ft deep x 1ft wide x1ft long). As with indoors, procure the necessary ingredients to fill said holes with a good soil, and spend top dollar on compost.

2) Grow your plants in the holes. Every single last branch and leaf removed will go on top of the soil. Again, no exceptions. When you harvest, cut from the base of the plant, do not remove the plant by the roots, and plant your next plant next to the stump. If you're growing something like peppers, tomatoes, or anything with seeds in it (not pot, of course lol) then simply allow a handful of the fruit to decompose with the branches and leaves. Once next spring hits you'll have loads of volunteers popping up in that exact same spot your first plant grew and died in. In some instances, your first plant may even spring back to life and grow for you again.

3) Rinse and repeat. Within a year, you will not need to purchase much of anything, if anything at all. If you're planting veggies/fruit instead of compost, plant them within 12-18 inches of another so that their roots (and by proxy, soil webs) can combine and intermingle with one another, creating one humongous soil web instead of multiple individual ones.

Why only 1 cuft of soil, you may be asking.

That is all that we need. Why? The soil web is where the roots are, not where the soil web is. We are only using the 1 cuft of premade soil to start things off. Eventually, the roots will grow out of the premade soil and into whatever your native dirt is. Any nutrients from the decaying plant matter will spread throughout the entire root zone, regardless of whether it is premade soil, dirt, sand, whatever. Once I finish in the garden tonight, I will post old photos I recently found of my old greenhouse grow I had in Arizona. I feel this will fully demonstrate my point.

Apologies for the wall of text, but hopefully this was helpful to you, and anyone else that may stumble upon this.

Regards.

kratos015 said:

Funny you mention that, I actually got 10 Asparagus crowns that are said to be 2 years old already. Any advice on those? Do they grow similar to raspberries in the sense they produce new shoots from the roots? Looking forward to seeing how those do, I absolutely love asparagus. Make a sauce made out of mayo, mustard, and a little bit of lemon juice and I can munch on that shit all day!




Happy to help! To answer your questions

1) As weedstoner420 already pointed out, it is so it doesn't completely overtake your yard. Comfrey grows like a weed, and its roots can get 8-10ft deep with a 3 ft wide radius. Until a closed loop system is created where the microbes are in full control, other plants will suffer due to a lack of nutrition and water from the comfrey leeching everything from the ground.

That said, even if the Comfrey does overtake your yard, each Comfrey plant will have its own massive root zone and, by proxy, an equally massive soil web filled with microbes. Each individual type of plant (tomato, cannabis, peppers, etc) will attract different microbes based on the individual plant and the specific terpenes the plants and their roots exude.

"Different plants attract different cross-sections of the bacteria and fungi in the soil, initially based on the composition of the unique root exudates from each plant. Thus, plants mostly attract those microorganisms that are beneficial to plants and exclude those that are potentially pathogenic."

Microbes, just like the humble little earthworm, are responsible for so much more than we give them credit for. Yes, it is true that Comfrey will overtake your yard. And yes, it is true that newly transplanted plants (cannabis, tomato, etc) may suffer for a little bit because of this. But they will not die. Let's compare tomatoes to comfrey, for example. Say a specific type of microbe only attaches to tomato roots, but not comfrey. Those microbes will not allow the host plant to die. Remember, in a closed loop self-sustaining environment, all of the individual plant's roots, microbes, bugs, and even large animals are all in constant communication with each other via terpenes.

Eventually, everything will grow and live together in perfect symbiosis and harmony. The catch? We have to be patient and do nothing until this happens. Could take weeks, months, or even over a year. But we have to restrain ourselves and do nothing, while allowing the microbes to do everything. This is why gardens never become "closed loop" or "self-sustaining". We see plants suffering and spring into action, desperately applying organic inputs, compost teas, trying to influence the pH, on and on and on. By doing this, we may correct the one plant that was initially suffering, but we have upset the balance of things below the ground (soil web) and as a result, other plants will begin to suffer from our intervention.

2) What you bring up concerning pine/fir needles is a bit of a half-truth. When they are green, they have an acidic pH between 3.0-4.0, which can interfere with a compost bin. But only at first. Eventually, the needles turn from green to brown, and this issue becomes nonexistent. You'll notice that the needles I'm using are brown, and that I only began raking them up in the weeks prior to spring after they have not only turned color but have also produced compost as a result. If you look back to the photo I posted of the pile of pine needles that fell from the trees, you'll see all the black compost below. Those are perfectly safe to use, both as mulch, and in a compost pile.

In short, pine needles are perfectly safe to use so long as they are brown and not green. If they are green, simply leave them alone until they become brown and you'll be good to go. You can in fact mix them into compost piles, just like you can with wood chips. But I've always found it is best to use wood chips and/or needles as mulch instead. The woodchips/needles will eventually decompose into compost, while helping to retain water on top of the fact.



As for how to create and keep a healthy soil? If I could outline a step-by-step process to creating a self-sustaining closed loop soil system, it would be as follows:

Indoors

1) Create and use a raised bed instead of individual plants, if at all possible. Let's compare a 4x4x1 bed to that of 4 individual 7-gallon pots. In pots, your soil web is limited to the size of the pot. In a raised bed, the entire bed is the soil web. This is why you see people get such amazing results using beds instead of pots. Procure the ingredients necessary to fill a raised bed with a good soil. Spend top dollar on the finest compost you can buy. Look on Craigslist for people selling earthworm castings, you'd be surprised. When I lived in SoCal, I had people selling worm castings 1/2 mile away from my house and didn't even know about it for years.

2) Grow your plants in the raised bed. Most of us here are interested in growing pot exclusively, so grow your first batch of plants in the raised bed. Buy clover seeds, or any other kind of micro green to grow in unison. Every single last branch and leaf you remove from the plants should go on top of the soil in the bed. No exceptions. Eventually, these branches and leaves will fully decompose into your soil, providing both nutrition and compost. When you harvest, cut from the base of the plant and do not under any circumstances remove the plant by the roots. The roots will eventually decompose over time, do not remove them from the closed loop system we are trying to create.

3) Dig as small of a hole as possible next to the old plant's stump and transplant your next crop's plants into said holes. Trim your plants as normal. Save all fan leaves, stems, and branches, then throw them on top of your soil bed.

4) Rinse and repeat. Within 3-4 grows, you will not need to purchase another single item, and will only need to "top dress" with the "trash" from the plants you've harvested. You have now successfully created a self-sustaining closed loop system, where the "trash" from the last harvest's plants produces nutrition and compost for the next generation of plants. This bed will last you for multiple years. Just check out any of Northwood's journals on here for confirmation.

Outdoors

Much easier because we aren't constrained by space indoors, nor in a soil bed.

1) Same as indoors, except we simply dig a 1 cu.ft. hole and fill it with soil (1ft deep x 1ft wide x1ft long). As with indoors, procure the necessary ingredients to fill said holes with a good soil, and spend top dollar on compost.

2) Grow your plants in the holes. Every single last branch and leaf removed will go on top of the soil. Again, no exceptions. When you harvest, cut from the base of the plant, do not remove the plant by the roots, and plant your next plant next to the stump. If you're growing something like peppers, tomatoes, or anything with seeds in it (not pot, of course lol) then simply allow a handful of the fruit to decompose with the branches and leaves. Once next spring hits you'll have loads of volunteers popping up in that exact same spot your first plant grew and died in. In some instances, your first plant may even spring back to life and grow for you again.

3) Rinse and repeat. Within a year, you will not need to purchase much of anything, if anything at all. If you're planting veggies/fruit instead of compost, plant them within 12-18 inches of another so that their roots (and by proxy, soil webs) can combine and intermingle with one another, creating one humongous soil web instead of multiple individual ones.

Why only 1 cuft of soil, you may be asking.

That is all that we need. Why? The soil web is where the roots are, not where the soil web is. We are only using the 1 cuft of premade soil to start things off. Eventually, the roots will grow out of the premade soil and into whatever your native dirt is. Any nutrients from the decaying plant matter will spread throughout the entire root zone, regardless of whether it is premade soil, dirt, sand, whatever. Once I finish in the garden tonight, I will post old photos I recently found of my old greenhouse grow I had in Arizona. I feel this will fully demonstrate my point.

Apologies for the wall of text, but hopefully this was helpful to you, and anyone else that may stumble upon this.

Regards.

Click to expand...

It was very helpful thanks

Hey guys,

Not all too much to update on as now it is a matter of simply waiting on things to grow and produce.



Apple tree is already starting to put out flowers, incredible results for a plant I only purchased a month or so ago.







The wild berry plants are starting to produce fruits as well! Most of them look like the "Dewberries" I've been reading about, but some of them look like they could be wild Blackberry or Raspberry plants. Only time will tell.




The Peach Tree, some of the grape vines, and Mulberry tree are all also starting to show signs of life. At this rate, it is entirely possible that some of them will produce fruit this year! When I bought these trees, I didn't think they would even produce anything this first year, so anything I get will be more than welcomed for sure. A sign of how healthy and vigorous the land is



Some of the strawberries are also starting to produce flowers. I very well may have a small Strawberry harvest this year at this rate. However, the main point was to get the berries established for next year, that said I will of course happily take whatever they will produce for me this year until the runners do their thing.

As I said above, it is mostly a period of waiting at this point in time until summer when things start to take off and get really exciting. Just wanted to post an update and let everyone interested know that things are still very much alive and kicking here.

All the best!

I have still not watered any plants yet, rainfall and the ground has been sufficient for both water and nutrition. The bag of 4-4-4 blend I purchased has remained mostly unused, and I've still yet to open my bag of TM-7.

Absolutely nothing going on here except for what has already existed since before my father even purchased the land. Everything is lush, green, and producing, and I have done absolutely nothing for the most part.

Again, I say this not to brag, but merely to demonstrate just how "in control" things can be once things are dialed in and set up. I am not "getting results" but rather simply allow the plants and microbes to do their own thing and tap into it. The end goal of purchasing any products should be to get a self-sustaining and closed-loop system such as this.

Welcome to Alabama sounds like you are up north way. I have a Lemon tree 20 or more years old stopped putting out lemons past 4 yrs now had black ants in it took care of them but not a lemon since then tried everything. Do they just stop producing lemons puts out flowers but no lemons.You sound like the man that might can help tried all the regular stuff. Thanks Bama

Hey RIU, I know it has been almost a few weeks. As you know, at this stage of growth, it is mostly a matter of waiting on things to grow before things get truly exciting. However, a decent amount has happened in the past few days.






These do look a lot like the "Dewberries" I have been researching, however some of them do look like Blackberries as well. I'm still unsure, because the Dewberries are supposed to have vicious hooked thorns, and not all of these berry bushes have them. You can see how much they've developed though. Very little flowers anymore and mostly developing fruits.



The Golden Delicious Apple tree above appears to have had the flowers successfully pollinated, those look like tiny buds to me! Very well may end up with a few apples this year, that would be amazing if so.



The Pink Lady apple tree hasn't put forth any flowers just yet, but it looks healthy and vigorous regardless.



The White Mulberry tree also looks extremely healthy as well.

Funny thing about all of the plants/trees that I bought, the ones that had leaves on it are just barely recovering, whereas the ones that had little to no vegetation on it are doing absolutely amazing.

This makes me think of taking clones, as well as transplanting said clones into solo cups. We cut off a decent portion of the vegetation on unrooted clones, encouraging the plant to grow roots, as well as reducing stress on the cutting.

Since the plant has little to no vegetation, it can focus solely on developing its roots. Whereas if the plant has vegetation, the plant is confused as to whether it should focus on producing more vegetation, keeping current vegetation alive, or focusing on the roots.

And, as I posted earlier in this thread (with a citation), roots are capable of photosynthesis.