TGA Strains Stable?

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman said:

its funny how people here bag on nirvana and talk shit about them, but their regs seeds are less likely to herm than some of Subcools, g13 labs, reserva privada or Dutch passion.... those breeders deserve a thread too. maybe more variation (in some cases, similar levels of variation) but its tough to herm their genetics, since they use alot of shanti's f2's, sensi's f2's and homegrown fantaseeds f2's.

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Ten years ago, Nirvana Seeds used to be $10 per pack and before I knew how to clone, Nirvana was my go to for beans. I grew out their Afghani, Bid bud, Pure power plant, Northern lights, bluemystic, Top 44, Chrystal, Skunk #1, and their mixed pack and between all those different phenos in each of those packs, not one of them hermied.

Breeders are quick to blames a grower's environment in an attempt to cover their own rear but as a young grower, I was probably providing the same less-than-optimal environment as any other beginner.

Hermies do happen but as long as your room is dark enough to induce flowering and you know how to operate a light timer, the presence of male flowers on a female plant is all on the 'breeder' (hacker, chucker, seed producer, etc).

homebrewer said:

Breeders are quick to blames a grower's environment in an attempt to cover their own rear but as a young grower, I was probably providing the same less-than-optimal environment as any other beginner.

Hermies do happen but as long as your room is dark enough to induce flowering and you know how to operate a light timer, the presence of male flowers on a female plant is all on the 'breeder' (hacker, chucker, seed producer, etc).

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Hate to have to jump back in this discussion, but your conclusions about hermie's is laughable. Homebrewer I'll ask you this question as well....how many TGA seeds have you popped/journaled to have any input as to whether TGA is stable or not?


And

Hermies do happen but as long as your room is dark enough to induce flowering and you know how to operate a light timer, the presence of male flowers on a female plant is all on the 'breeder' (hacker, chucker, seed producer, etc).

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This is what made me have to post in the first place. That is about as far from the truth as possible. Please provide FACTS to prove this.

I can provide some the other way.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=227405

And this quote is from Shantibaba himself.

"So it is not always easy to help unless one is willing to let me know the circumstances and timing of male flowers on females. It is a natural occurence at the end of the life cycle for the plant to try and seed itself as a safeguard for the following year in seed form"

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=236035&page=3

WOW! Male flowers are a natural occurence at the end of the life cycle?....that's crazy talk according to Homebrewers theory.

Read through those threads and tell me again that no one has hermie problems with MNS/top breeder's seeds. In fact alot of the stuff I have been reading about MNS has been showing herm's lately.

Now don't get me wrong, I would still grow MNS and know it's dank, but saying "as long as your room is dark enough to induce flowering and you know how to operate a light timer, the presence of male flowers on a female plant is all on the 'breeder' (hacker, chucker, seed producer, etc)." is highly laughable.

Are you calling Shantibaba/MNS all of those things you mentioned above? B/c people are experiencing herm's/male flowers in large volumes (even in veg) as of late with his gear.

And don't blame it on growers error either, b/c you already said that's just an excuse made up by the breeder "in an attempt to cover their own rear".


T-Ray

T Ray said:

This is what made me have to post in the first place. That is about as far from the truth as possible. Please provide FACTS to prove this.

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My 'facts' come from the last 11 years that I've spent in this hobby and the hundred+ strains I've grown which were either bred by myself or from commercial seed producers. If you happen to have access to a time machine, hop in and I'll show you what I'm talking about.

I can provide some the other way.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=227405

And this quote is from Shantibaba himself.

"So it is not always easy to help unless one is willing to let me know the circumstances and timing of male flowers on females. It is a natural occurence at the end of the life cycle for the plant to try and seed itself as a safeguard for the following year in seed form"

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=236035&page=3

WOW! Male flowers are a natural occurence at the end of the life cycle?....that's crazy talk according to Homebrewers theory.

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Male flowers (aka pollen sacks) are a lot different than male stamen (nanners) and again, male flowers on a female plant at any time during the growing process is unacceptable. Now male flowers at day 80 on a 60 day strain is to be expected, I believe Soma creates his fem seeds that way.

Read through those threads and tell me again that no one has hermie problems with MNS/top breeder's seeds. In fact alot of the stuff I have been reading about MNS has been showing herm's lately.

Now don't get me wrong, I would still grow MNS and know it's dank, but saying "as long as your room is dark enough to induce flowering and you know how to operate a light timer, the presence of male flowers on a female plant is all on the 'breeder' (hacker, chucker, seed producer, etc)." is highly laughable.

Are you calling Shantibaba/MNS all of those things you mentioned above? B/c people are experiencing herm's/male flowers in large volumes (even in veg) as of late with his gear.

And don't blame it on growers error either, b/c you already said that's just an excuse made up by the breeder "in an attempt to cover their own rear".

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If MNS is having reports of hermies as of late, then that's on him and his recent run of seeds. Did you notice how Shanti offered to correct the issue with presumably more beans? That's good service, IMO.

Just to clarify though, your argument is that because MNS has had some hermie reports as of recent that it's ok for TGA to have them too? News flash: hermies are never OK from any breeder/hacker/chucker who charge $ for their beans.

No my argument is that every breeder runs into problems with hermies. Some people are happy and some people are pissed. It happens with all genetics and is inevitable. And like I said these people weren't getting flowers from letting a 60 day strain go 80 days. They were getting hermies in veg and in early flower from MNS.

I did however notice that you failed to answer my questions. Here I'll number them so you can't miss them.

1. How many TGA seeds have you run to get into the discussion of whether or not they are stable?

2. You said this about breeders

as long as your room is dark enough to induce flowering and you know how to operate a light timer, the presence of male flowers on a female plant is all on the 'breeder' (hacker, chucker, seed producer, etc).

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Shanti is having these problems and I have shown you sources of it. Are you calling Shantibaba/MNS all of those things you mentioned above? (Yes he did say he would take care of the problem, but the fact still remains that it WAS/IS a problem and WAS/IS happening.) And based on your quote, it shouldn't matter if he is rectifying it or not.


T-Ray

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman said:

its funny how people here bag on nirvana and talk shit about them, but their regs seeds are less likely to herm than some of Subcools, g13 labs, reserva privada or Dutch passion.... those breeders deserve a thread too. maybe more variation (in some cases, similar levels of variation) but its tough to herm their genetics, since they use alot of shanti's f2's, sensi's f2's and homegrown fantaseeds f2's.

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well, I agree..... to a point. every nirvana pack we come into contact with is weaker that any of our control strains here health wise, and one ice pack was 1 out of 10 for healthy seedlings. another NL pack (13 years old; stored wrong) didnt even germinate. the other 13 year old dutch passion pack (also stored wrong) put out a pure WW mother. You are right, the F2s are all based on other bank's genetics, but I wont ever run Nirvana gear again. Its what I call a supreme waste of time and effort, and puts you at greater risk when their weaker F2s fail miserably on you. Then again, my friends RP Headband clones were monsters, but totally androgynous (hermie). I guess if you are happy with F2s, its ok. We dabble in a little breeding and cloning, so typically weaker strains get culled very quickly.

The Smoking Man

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Lets all try and get along. Life is short.

Omgwtfbbq Indicaman said:

subcool doesn't say his genetics are herm free, he admitted Jillybean/Plushberry(BCS strains) herm and even said one of his strain he was going to release had to e cancelled because of hermaphroditic traits(black dahlia) and that was years ago( you can only blame yourself if you do not adequately research before a purchase). When he breeds i can only guess that he releases stuff that is dank enough to outweigh the negatives of the strain. the fact that he tests his gear and gives out test gear to growers shows his business opperates with some quality control. but yea, fuck subcool, fuck his genetics, i can do better yadda yadda yadda.

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Agreed. Every time I have seen him discuss his genetics, he adamantly pushes the "I cull all hermies" bit, and I know some of his strains develop male stigmas on females (Jtr, Jql). Im not saying his genetics dont have hermie problems, I'm saying thats how they rep their strains. In his defense as well, as you said, Subcool's black dahlia wasnt ever released, as you said, because of the hermie problem. But trust me Im not defending his genetics. Candy pastel colored hacks arent my favorite, regardless of their taste. He must run the same Bros Grimm strains in every cross, and although we do have A-13 x Vx cuts, thats as far as our commitment to TGA gear goes.

I've seen his pollen making videos, and I honestly fell off my chair laughing. Nowhere in nature does a big bearded hippie pop up out of nowhere and put a choke hold on the males, shaking them around until they cant stand up on their own. Pollen is passed naturally, without any violence. Paint it on at least. Paying out 16 bucks a seed, 75 a 5 pack, the genetics better be damn perfect, created in a damn lab grade grow room with nitrile gloves pollen masks and hairnets. Not some shit anyone could pull in a small closet. Ya know.

Preaching to the choir, but Cannabis is hermie in the first place. Growing isn't rocket science, but it's not easy. If its easy you're not working hard enough IMO. We have always maintained low stress rooms, and have a relatively high pure female to male ratio, outside of some recent RP and Resin gear going herm on us, we typically do not run into herms at all. Took some time to get things in order, but if you eliminate stress factors entirely, you will have less hermies. And yes, research is of course very important, before purchasing genetics. Like I said no argument here, I personally don't even purchase genetics currently, unless some Bodhi or GGG gear gets restocked. Got our winners right here working hard.

The Smoking Man

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Lets all try and get along. Life is Short.

I have 3 different Ripped Bubba phenos. One of them has a few nanners and the other two don't have any. Heading into week 8 of flower....

I'm not stressing over a few nanners

BA142 said:

I have 3 different Ripped Bubba phenos. One of them has a few nanners and the other two don't have any. Heading into week 8 of flower....

I'm not stressing over a few nanners

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hey an actual report! are you keeping the hermed Bubba? maybe set it aside and do a selfed run for seed? We run selfed seeds in a separate area when available (current - Pp x Sd S1s). Never tried the TGA Bubba. I believe he uses some Jacks Qleaner or JTR in the Ripped Bubba, along with space queen I think.

The Smoking Man

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Lets all try and get along. Life is short.

T Ray said:

No my argument is that every breeder runs into problems with hermies.

T-Ray

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First of all, you're using the term 'breeder' very loosely here. I've looked at your post history and while you do grow some nice plants, this issue seems to be a personal one for you for whatever reason. Crossing f1 crosses is not 'breeding', especially when the f1 parents are polyhybrids to begin with.

This is what you asked Gamer621:

T Ray said:

How many TGA seeds have you personally grown out chief?
T-Ray

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This is what you asked Captstickyfingers:

T Ray said:

How many Jilly Beans did you grow out?
T-Ray

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This is what you asked Jogro:

T Ray said:

So tell me Jogro, how many TGA seeds have you cracked and grown out/journal to come to these conclusions you come up with out of thin air?
T-Ray

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And this is what you're asking of me:

T Ray said:

1. How many TGA seeds have you run to get into the discussion of whether or not they are stable?

T-Ray

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Does anyone actually need to grow out F1 polyhybrid crosses of crosses to know if they're going to be stable or not? Have you ever done any pollen-chucking yourself to know what 'stable' actually means? Stable can mean 'uniform' and it can also mean 'not likely to throw male flowers (pollen sacks)'. Are the beans TGA sells uniform? They're uniformly not uniform. Are you asking me if they're likely to throw male flowers? I think you're in the right thread if you're looking for an answer to that question.

T Ray said:

2. You said this about breeders Shanti is having these problems and I have shown you sources of it. Are you calling Shantibaba/MNS all of those things you mentioned above? (Yes he did say he would take care of the problem, but the fact still remains that it WAS/IS a problem and WAS/IS happening.) And based on your quote, it shouldn't matter if he is rectifying it or not.

T-Ray

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Shanti is the creator of some legendary strains and the difference between your preferred seed producer and shanti is that I'd actually give Shanti some business. It's nothing personal or course, just a preference for supporting real breeders.



EDIT: I want to be clear here because I feel like this is personal for you. I'm not knocking the potential quality of pollen-chucked genetics, they can be excellent. It's simply about knowing what you're getting yourself into when purchasing said genetics.

You may not agree but threads like this are very helpful to growers and can make people aware of the potential pitfalls of certain 'breeding' methods. If someone buys TGA beans expecting them to be as stable and as uniform as stress-tested, highly-selected F4 strains, how pissed would they be if one male flower seeded an entire garden of medicine which no one told them to look out for?

You still never answered me! How many TGA beans have you grown out personally HB? And yes, I am asking the same question to anyone who comes in a thread about something that they have no experience with.

The reason I ask is because how on earth could you possibly know something about a seed company if you have never even cracked a bean?

If you haven't noticed on this thread the pattern seems to be that majority of people who hate on TGA or have shitty things to say about Subcool have never grown out one of their/his beans and that is my problem.

If you noticed the people who have experience with TGA that are contributing in a negative fashion I have not had one problem with (other than asking Captain Sticky how many beans he grew cuz I read his posts and know he mostly gets single seeds). It's people like you who spout shit off just because they "just know" or they heard it from Billy's uncle's brothers cousin.

I don't have a personal problem with you or anyone else, but it amazes me the amount of people who come into a thread about TGA being stable and chime in when they haven't even grown one plant from them.

T-Ray

T Ray said:

You still never answered me! How many TGA beans have you grown out personally HB? And yes, I am asking the same question to anyone who comes in a thread about something that they have no experience with.

The reason I ask is because how on earth could you possibly know something about a seed company if you have never even cracked a bean?

If you haven't noticed on this thread the pattern seems to be that majority of people who hate on TGA or have shitty things to say about Subcool have never grown out one of their/his beans and that is my problem.

If you noticed the people who have experience with TGA that are contributing in a negative fashion I have not had one problem with (other than asking Captain Sticky how many beans he grew cuz I read his posts and know he mostly gets single seeds). It's people like you who spout shit off just because they "just know" or they heard it from Billy's uncle's brothers cousin.

I don't have a personal problem with you or anyone else, but it amazes me the amount of people who come into a thread about TGA being stable and chime in when they haven't even grown one plant from them.

T-Ray

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This is why I'm done buying TGA, if only I could get rid of my Spacedawg and Chrnobyl packs.

Personally I don't like Sub, not as a person he has never called me a douche, but I have seen him be a dick to others on his forum which seemed unnecessary and have read multiple reports about very poor customer service or just plain ignoring folks when they report to him about seed issues. Also I've met him and just don't like the aura he gives off, this is my opinion of course but he comes across like "johnny" in Karate Kid, like his shit don't stink and he's threatened by the underdog (in this case we'll call him Alphakronic). I saw somewhere where he was accusing a breeder of stealing his genetics and calling them his.... HELLO this is what Sub is all about.

Let me clarify in the above when I say TGA I mean Sub, I've met several members of TGA and other than sub I only have issues with Robert whom I'm came across multiple times... all I can say about that is, if you're the sales rep for a company you should have people skills, just saying. TGA is a family, breeders, test growers, patients. I was gifted dank by a TGA associate who had a Auto Blackberry x Diesel I believe that was cherished for it's quick outdoor time but was also dank, but more so it's the man behind the strain that allows me to not bash TGA as a whole, there are some awesome guys associated with the TGA logo.

uuuuuuugh....I thought we finished this arguement 5 pages ago?!?!?. hahahahaha man...

wheezer said:

uuuuuuugh....I thought we finished this arguement 5 pages ago?!?!?. hahahahaha man...

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2,717 posts and you haven't figured out this argument will repost it's self ever week or 2?

T Ray said:

The reason I ask is because how on earth could you possibly know something about a seed company if you have never even cracked a bean?

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You do know that your preferred seed producer had/has a youtube show, right? I quit watching after he took extreme offense to people pointing out that his 'breeding notes' were actually just breeding articles that DJ short had written. I believe subby actually called someone an 'ass cunt' in the rant video that followed.

I also have internet access and am a member at multiple forums which allows me to do research to 'know something about a seed company' before I'd give them my business.

If you haven't noticed on this thread the pattern seems to be that majority of people who hate on TGA or have shitty things to say about Subcool have never grown out one of their/his beans and that is my problem.

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Look, you seem to want to continue this dialog like I have some axe to grind with the company at hand here which simply isn't the case. I couldn't care less about what beans anyone chooses to buy. There are breeders and chuckers and you're free to support whoever you'd like. Cheers!

Oh, and to finally answer your question, I do have some TGA genetics in my room right now. I'll name the linage, lets see if you can guess what I have:

(SSSC (Nevil's) X NL5 X Pluton X Purple Haze X Jack) x (Romulan X Cindy 99) x Deep Psychosis. Any idea how he included all that worked landrace into this cross ?

Grojak said:

2,717 posts and you haven't figured out this argument will repost it's self ever week or 2?

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I guess I'm just sloooooww..

tga strains arent stable...lol from wat i know and have seen tga is poly-hybrid trash.

T Ray your saying people are just coming on this thread to bash sub..Have you read from page one? Seems to be a lot of people like me having issues with subs shit..
Sub might as well just say "you'll get lots of variations,Good Luck"
I'm not into it...Homebrewer is right..How shitty is it to start out growing and getting subs seeds and have no idea they are unstable...then all of a sudden your throwing naners and growing seeds in all your plants..People need to know that instead of just watching weed nerd looking at sub's little pink glasses shaking his goatee to butt rock..You are led to believe his strains are dank and incredible but in fact not something a new grower wants to mess with..sounds like you need to dedicate time and pop a lot of seeds of just one strain of his to find something stable..F*ck that

homebrewer said:

You may not agree but threads like this are very helpful to growers and can make people aware of the potential pitfalls of certain 'breeding' methods. If someone buys TGA beans expecting them to be as stable and as uniform as stress-tested, highly-selected F4 strains, how pissed would they be if one male flower seeded an entire garden of medicine which no one told them to look out for?

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I agree 100% but some of these people that are bashing sub and his genetics seem to have had a long personal issue against him and his genetics. (i've personally been reading their post's for a few years so just sayin)

If you don't want to roll the dice of pheno variation then dont, get some nice uniform seeds from mr. nice and we can all smoke together at the end

I personally think its fun to search through different phenos and find amazing cuts which people have done, they're out there, check out hovering's lab tested, very well documented grows as well as nugbuckets, ocanabis, konagrows (from youtube), the list goes on.

I'm not arguing for sub's cause I'm just sayin in my eyes as a connoisseur, its worth it for me to search out elite phenos, and discard the undesirables.

But for people who are buying seeds from TGA and thinking that they are uniform, similar, the biology term I think would be "cubed", then they are not, they are all gonna be different, {EDIT in hoverings thread of Spacedawg you can see how uniform they are here https://www.rollitup.org/subcools-old-school-organics/532607-tga-spacedawg-hovering-6.html} and i see how a lot of people can be mad about that.

Like I said, for people like me, thats the fun in it, being able to purchase poly hybrids of tons of awesome strains, and then growin these plants out and documenting and finding the phenos or traits that i want.

peace.
-Bud

and PS one more thing homebrewer, the thing you said about one male flower pollinating an entire crop doesnt sound very logical? thats all it takes is one male flower to seed a whole crop?????

Budologist420 said:

and PS one more thing homebrewer, the thing you said about one male flower pollinating an entire crop doesnt sound very logical? thats all it takes is one male flower to seed a whole crop?????

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One male flower wont ruin a crop but it could be enough to produce 500-1000 seeds (personally I have a lot of airflow in my room). Depending on your scale, that's either enough to ruin some plants or just constantly clog your grinder. Patients don't like dealing with that. I'm not saying hermies are a guarantee from anyone (well maybe Dutch Passion), it's just something smart growers look out for given the practices of their favorite breeder.

hmm. my last grow i had a hermie pop out 4 pollen sacks. they all went unnoticed. when i chopped, i had 12 beautiful seeds. 3 fans blowing inside a 3x3 tent and i only got 12 seeds from two plants. the male flowers you speak of must have 6 pounds of pollen!