Supreme Court rolls back spending for Corporations

abe23

Active Member
Why not remove the murky "reform" and make everything above board; out in the open. That way you know exactly who is in who's pocket.

Politicians prefer the convoluted system now in place. And you are playing right into their hands.

By the way, Abe, I am a Conservative who opposes the death penalty, opposes discrimination against homosexuals, and supports re-legalization of cannabis.

And I am not alone. That sort of puts a kink in your broad characterization of Conservatives.

What do you think about that?
Yes, you and I will know what's going on but will the majority of voters really pay attention to who paid for what TV spot and more importantly put 2 and 2 together...? I would like to think that we have a well-informed and politically conscious electorate but that's not always the case. Without some limit on corporate money in elections, any business with the cash to buy enough TV ads will have each and every politician by the balls in no time. It's already bad enough as it, I shudder to think about what will happen when we kick it up a notch.

I'm not big on political labels, but I would hardly call your views conservative even in the american sense. We actually agree on most things other than you're fundamentalist interpretation of the constitution...case in point.
 

jrh72582

Well-Known Member
Think you can turn back the clock on lobbying? Wake up.....

The only way to get where we need to go is to REDUCE the govt.'s role in our private lives and in business.

Then you will see the lobbying and PAC influence decrease dramatically.

REDUCE the GOVT.

Which means get rid of the Liberal Congress and Obama. That's a no brainer.

Simple.

I'm sorry, but when you make ridiculous statements like "the 2 parties are the same" .. I do need to remind folks that ur not informed ... at all.
It's not my fault that you cannot interpret beyond the literal. A proclivity towards understanding figurative language is a vital necessity, Cracker.

And you still didn't respond to the numbers. Did you even look at the site? We're talking billions of dollars being thrown at the government. Reducing government would only make the corporations stronger - they would get to enforce their will without having to buy the government, in essence saving the money, only increasing their power.

So I think it's you who needs to enter a classroom. You rebuke everyone on here, pretending to know everything, when you're probably one of the least educated (formally speaking). So grow up.
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
so all you liberals - how's that constitutional amendment coming?
 

CrackerJax

New Member
It's not my fault that you cannot interpret beyond the literal. A proclivity towards understanding figurative language is a vital necessity, Cracker.

And you still didn't respond to the numbers. Did you even look at the site? We're talking billions of dollars being thrown at the government. Reducing government would only make the corporations stronger - they would get to enforce their will without having to buy the government, in essence saving the money, only increasing their power.

So I think it's you who needs to enter a classroom. You rebuke everyone on here, pretending to know everything, when you're probably one of the least educated (formally speaking). So grow up.
You begin with a false premise. It is NOT the corps vs. america. Corps MAKE America what it is.

Corps PRODUCE ... govt's don't.

Bigger govt, weaker corps, means a weaker America.


Govt. produces NOTHING except burdens on the taxpayer.

Indeed look at the GDP this past year, and then look at govt. growth. that's not an anomaly ... that's true and can be booked upon.

A bigger govt. means a less PRODUCTIVE country. One need only look across the pond to see the evidence of that.

This is BASIC economics.... for those with a good education that is.
 

abe23

Active Member
You begin with a false premise. It is NOT the corps vs. america. Corps MAKE America what it is.

Corps PRODUCE ... govt's don't.

Bigger govt, weaker corps, means a weaker America.


Govt. produces NOTHING except burdens on the taxpayer.

Indeed look at the GDP this past year, and then look at govt. growth. that's not an anomaly ... that's true and can be booked upon.

A bigger govt. means a less PRODUCTIVE country. One need only look across the pond to see the evidence of that.

This is BASIC economics.... for those with a good education that is.
It is VERY basic economics. Go read the next chapter in your textbook, cracker...
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Uh huh, nice try.... is that it?

I have data on my side.... you don't. You lose, except right now Obama and Congress are using the wrong models, so we ALL lose.

And there's plenty of data on that....which is exactly why Obama is on a crash and burn arc.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Then why has every republican president since Regan that tries to use the old classical econ caused a recession in their first few years?


Government spending is up because the business investing and consumption is down, and it needs to pick up the slack to get the economy turned. When the economy picks back up, then the government should step out and allow the other 2 sectors to do their thing, while prepping for the next cycle.

That should be chapter two. Unless you got a crappy book, then in that case who knows.
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
It's the central tenet of the democrat religion that "big business" is the problem. Nevermind that the US was formed out of fear of central government. Obama is now trying to trick the foolish masses once again by suggesting that he has made a shift. Hints of tax cuts and spending freezes are a ruse. The battle cry of this admin is still to attack business. He has merely shifted the target from insurance companies to financial institutions. All the while the real culprit and the real danger is ever-increasing government.

All the jobs being created? Only in the government. And this morning we are told we should be happy that the fourth quarter GDP was up. But in fact, much of the rise was due to government spending which is of course, not sustainable. The rest of the rise was due to inventory restocking which is also not sustainable.

The economy is strong because of business, and it is staying alive in spite of the blows it is taking from this administration. But if it were not for the wasted year of Obama, we would be well into a real recovery now instead of this phony, artificially stimulated jobless pseudo recovery.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Reagan is the only one who got it right.....

His Presidency is still the peak of economic success for the country so far. No one has come close to him.
 

abe23

Active Member
Then why has every republican president since Regan that tries to use the old classical econ caused a recession in their first few years?


Government spending is up because the business investing and consumption is down, and it needs to pick up the slack to get the economy turned. When the economy picks back up, then the government should step out and allow the other 2 sectors to do their thing, while prepping for the next cycle.

That should be chapter two. Unless you got a crappy book, then in that case who knows.
I think he got a crappy book.

Cracker, even the smart people who espoused neo-classical economics in the 80s - the so-called chicago school - are either backing off or dead. Very few people actually buy the argument that markets can regulate themselves in the face of the overwhelming evidence of the past 30 years apart from ignorant, the deluded and the ideologues. I'm not sure which category you fall into but it's funny to hear you say the word 'data'. My suggestion to you would be to either tone down the arrogance or work a little more on informing yourself. But what the hell do I know...

We've also come to find that growth and GDP aren't the only things that matter. Over the last decade, real income has stagnated or fallen for most, while overall GDP and the share of wealth of the richest 1% americans grew. So we got overall growth but also more income disparity. If we keep it we could be a lot like brazil very soon...
 

CrackerJax

New Member
uh huh , sure.

What works has already been proven, you just don't like the way it has to be done, which is letting the ppl keep their own earnings and invest it so other PRODUCERS can innovate.

You seem to think that the govt innovates...it doesn't. It is the most inefficient way to do anything.

Reaganomics is still the crown jewel of performance. Bar none.
 

abe23

Active Member
uh huh , sure.

What works has already been proven, you just don't like the way it has to be done, which is letting the ppl keep their own earnings and invest it so other PRODUCERS can innovate.

You seem to think that the govt innovates...it doesn't. It is the most inefficient way to do anything.

Reaganomics is still the crown jewel of performance. Bar none.
What? Are you in the wrong thread or something....?

So the soviet union had unbelievable gdp growth in the 1920s and 1930s. Did that work? Did the last 10 years work?

And when you speak of people's earnings, you do realize that is only possible in a properly administered territory where you don't have to worry about infrastructure, security and currency. How much of a pay check do you think you'd have if you had to build your own bridges, hire your own security service and create your own medium of exchange? Even if you refuse to acknowledge it, you owe a debt to society for being able to live the life you do. You repay it with you taxes and others have the opportunity to do the same. Thank you very much....

Where did you that bit about me thinking innovation comes from government? Innovation comes from people, but government can incentivize the right things through tax-breaks, grants and regulation. It would be nice to have stem-cell therapy for stuff like Parkinson's, don't you think?

Reaganomics? Are you joking? He created a recession within two years and tripled the debt!
 

CrackerJax

New Member
I think ur on the wrong thread.....

Govt doesn't incentivize (ur made up word, not mine :roll:) anything....it just takes a big cut of the money and piddles out a small return. Just look at any govt. program.

Business needs no guidance from the govt. on where it needs to invest. Govt. is an obstacle, not an aid.

You have it exactly backwards.

Soviet Union had an unbelievable GDP growth in the 20's and 30's. Wow, that is relevant.... how? It's not hard to crank up terrific growth rates when you start at the very bottom .... use ur head please.

How many ppl died for that growth my friend. Political murder was the fastest growing sector in the Soviet Union. Is that ur example of excellence?

Use ur head.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
It's the central tenet of the democrat religion that "big business" is the problem. Nevermind that the US was formed out of fear of central government. Obama is now trying to trick the foolish masses once again by suggesting that he has made a shift. Hints of tax cuts and spending freezes are a ruse. The battle cry of this admin is still to attack business. He has merely shifted the target from insurance companies to financial institutions. All the while the real culprit and the real danger is ever-increasing government.

All the jobs being created? Only in the government. And this morning we are told we should be happy that the fourth quarter GDP was up. But in fact, much of the rise was due to government spending which is of course, not sustainable. The rest of the rise was due to inventory restocking which is also not sustainable.

The economy is strong because of business, and it is staying alive in spite of the blows it is taking from this administration. But if it were not for the wasted year of Obama, we would be well into a real recovery now instead of this phony, artificially stimulated jobless pseudo recovery.
I am a liberal and am very pro business. The thought that somehow we on the left demonize business, is akin to everyone on the right being lapdogs of business, it is just name calling, we all know whose names are on our checks (even if you own a small business you get checks from other businesses, no man is an island).

Everything that has been done to this point is almost exactly a text book maneuver.

GDP= C(consumption) + I(business spending) + G (government spending) + (exports - imports)


GDP (Drops by 5%)= C (Down 3%) + I (down by 2%) + G (unchanged at this point) + (E-IM).

To get GDP back to 100% we don't consume as much because we are losing our jobs, businesses start to cut spending and jobs to stay operational, exports start to rise if the dollar drops in value, but these changes are not huge.

So if the government stays unchanged,

GDP (Drops another 5%) = C (Down another 2%) + I (Down another 3%) + G + (E-IM)

So now youre in the downward spiral, businesses are cutting left and right, which lays off people, so they tighten up spending as they are afraid to lose jobs, so that impacts businesses more, on and on.

Lets look at one more cycle and start to get government involved and a increase in net exports(from previous levels).

But GDP (-12%) = C (-7%) + I (-8%) + G (-) + (E+IM(+3%))

The government finally gets involved and kicks up 5%, C and I continues to dip because they are still clenched.

GDP (-10%) = C(-9%) + I (-10%) + G (+5%) + (net exports +4%)

Still not affecting the spending decisions of C and I the government kicks in another 5%.

GDP (-7) = C (-10%) + I (-11%) + G (+10%) + (E-IM +4%)

Finally businesses have gotten through all their excess inventory, consumers have stopped worrying that they are next on the chopping block and start to peak their heads out (even if that means they haven't changed spending yet), So now the businesses need to restock and start to buy new materials and goods/services, which mean the people will slowly need to be hired back, so the system starts to right itself.

GDP (-5) = C (-10) + I (-9%) + G (+10%) + (E-IM +4%)

Continues to get a little better, people start to get hired and that money gets back into the system, Net exports start to decline again because our dollar starts to increase in value(in respect to other countries currencies).

GDP(-2%) = C (-8%) + I (-7%) + G (+10%) + (E-IM +3%)

The government is still spending but as GDP goes to normal they can start to scale back, but if they just dropped it to zero it would not be good:

Gov't drops to zero as country is recovering:
GDP (-10%) = C(-7%) + I (-6%) + G (0)+ (E-IM + 3%)

Basically right where the recession started. So really what needs to happen is they slowly decrease it as people come back into the market.
GDP (-1%) = C(-7%) + I (-6%) + G (9%)+ (E-IM + 3%)

As the recovery continues C and I keeps increasing, G backs off a little more, Net exports drops a little again.

GDP (-1%) = C(-6%) + I (-5%) + G (8%)+ (E-IM + 2%)

GDP gets back to normal levels, the import/export imbalance is back to normal.

GDP (0%) = C(-4%) + I (-3%) + G (7%)+ (E-IM + 0%)

And we are almost back to normal, at this point the government can fully pull out and not screw everything up.
GDP (0%) = C(-2%) + I (0%) + G (2%)+ (E-IM + 0%)


Pulling out is always the hardest thing to do in life, too early and you may ruin everything you have tried to accomplish, and too late and she ends up pregnant. Errr I mean too late and government becomes an anchor around our necks.

Crazy part is once it is back to normal you can cut the spending and increase taxes to build up the surplus (like clinton did) to get the government ready for the next economic cycle.


Most presidents have not gotten this last part, but if you listened to Obama, although he may use more populist language, this is essentially what he was saying he wants to do. This 'spending freeze' in 2011 is just the government pulling out when everything should be back at a stable level, the tax cuts are another way government can keep more money in the system so consumption increases and it is easier to repeal later when the system is fully stabilized and there needs to be a pull back on growth (to lengthen the times between booms and busts).

This is a very generalized model, there is a lot more into it, but this is essentially what is going on, and shows why he has done what he has to this point, and what they are planning in the future.


Reagan is the only one who got it right.....

His Presidency is still the peak of economic success for the country so far. No one has come close to him.
lol right, two recessions, the highest unemployment rate since the Great depression, spending over 8 trillion dollars on nuclear warheads, Surrre.

But your right nobody was able to surmount those accomplishes I just mentioned. Bush got the two recessions, but fell short of unemployment.
 

abe23

Active Member
I think ur on the wrong thread.....

Govt doesn't incentivize (ur made up word, not mine :roll:) anything....it just takes a big cut of the money and piddles out a small return. Just look at any govt. program.

Business needs no guidance from the govt. on where it needs to invest. Govt. is an obstacle, not an aid.

You have it exactly backwards.

Soviet Union had an unbelievable GDP growth in the 20's and 30's. Wow, that is relevant.... how? It's not hard to crank up terrific growth rates when you start at the very bottom .... use ur head please.

How many ppl died for that growth my friend. Political murder was the fastest growing sector in the Soviet Union. Is that ur example of excellence?

Use ur head.
Ok, last try then I give up...

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/INCENTIVIZE

I guess the notion public-private partnerships or research grants is beyond your reach. I'm sorry but the rest of the world isn't as simple as you are...

You also totally misunderstood my point about ussr's gdp. It was fantastic growth but the human costs far outweighed it's benefits. That's basically what happened the last 10 years....the economy grew but everyone who made less than a million dollars a year basically got fucked.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
The highest unemployment rate was a gift from carter.... know ur history folks....

Reagan turned the country around son...I ought to know, I lived through it. You obviously don't know just how bad things were under Carter. reagan set us free, he set the world free. His way of doing things always put the country first, himself second.

Obama is just the opposite. His policies are failing. Any positives coming from his economic policies is non existent. Obama is holding back the entire country. He clearly does not understand how business operates, unlike Reagan.

Reagan woke the country up ... he reminded us all that we are the light at the top of the hill. We are the beacon..... the ppl.

Obama thinks the govt. is the beacon..... he's dead wrong.

One term President for sure, just like Carter. The numbers are crushing him. His numbers are crushing us.

=========================
Abe, i didn't bother to look it up, it just came underlined. That doesn't prove ur point however. Still backwards....sorry.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Reagan turned the country around son...I ought to know, I lived through it. You obviously don't know just how bad things were under Carter. reagan set us free, he set the world free. His way of doing things always put the country first, himself second.
So you think that somehow communism would have succeeded? That is a joke.



Carter for sure did his part, as economics was not very well understood by politicians (and still most don't have a clue today as you are demonstrating) You can see that Regan did indeed inherit a rising unemployment. Then he got it way down, then guess what, it climbed again under him, how is that one carters fault?

And as you can also see, Clinton inherited a high unemployment rate, and got us through the tech bubble, and although I think it was not all Bushes fault, since 9/11 did wreck the economy for a bit, before that it was handleable.


Obama is just the opposite. His policies are failing. Any positives coming from his economic policies is non existent. Obama is holding back the entire country. He clearly does not understand how business operates, unlike Reagan.
Your evidence that Obama is wrecking the country?

Because you realize your logic is that

-Regan inherited Carters mess, But Obama did not inherit Bushes?

- Regan took that mess and turned it into 2 seperate recessions and 18% unemployment rate, spent 8 trillion + on nukes that were a waste since communism was going to fail anyway,

and Obama kept unemployment under 11%, spend a couple trillion on trying to build infrastructure that is useful, the economy is coming around, people are being hired again, businesses are doing better, and somehow he is failing?



I am sure there is some bible quote that would go well here, because you are just like a religious nut on this. You cannot be impartial, and cannot look at the facts without going into an ideological tirade. You spout 'knowledge' but come off looking like someone wearing a white suit holding up a cup trying to convince everyone it is blood of god as you drink from it.
 
I

Illegal Smile

Guest
There's no need for any of this. Let's just let the dems rise or fall based on the outcomes of what they have done. I'm very comfortable with that.
 

CrackerJax

New Member
Me too, except they are burying us all with an unsustainable amount of debt.

We can't wait, and the ppl now recognize that. Only bama is still dreamin....the rest of us see the reality....well not all of us obviously.
 
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