Stunted + nutrient burn?

Budzbuddha · Feb 7, 2020

Vipar has 2 switches .... run both on ALL THE TIME . No matter the stage in growth.

You are doing that plant a disservice by rationing only a “ blue “ channel .... you need all the light it can throw at it .
Forget that veg/bloom channel BS ... Full power on ... adjust height as needed for stage of growth. I seen this mistake over and over again.

I know , I used to run vipars back some years . Not the best but it can grow some respectable weed.

LawnXweeds · Feb 7, 2020

VRZ711 said:
Good Job,
How you plan on training that lady ? maybe use a scrog now? let the branches fill 70% of the scrog and then switch, things will be easier to manage for you.

Yes, I was planning on using a scrog. I didn't think to let it fill in before I flipped, though, so I will do that. I might have to find a way to raise my lights even more because they are already only 27" from the canopy and it's as high as I can get it without some weird rig up. I'm starting to get impatient to harvest now lol.

LawnXweeds · Feb 7, 2020

Budzbuddha said:
Vipar has 2 switches .... run both on ALL THE TIME . No matter the stage in growth.

You are doing that plant a disservice by rationing only a “ blue “ channel .... you need all the light it can throw at it .
Forget that veg/bloom channel BS ... Full power on ... adjust height as needed for stage of growth. I seen this mistake over and over again.

I know , I used to run vipars back some years . Not the best but it can grow some respectable weed.

View attachment 4474087

I've had both on for a while now. shortly after I re-potted, so about a month ago.

VRZ711 · Feb 7, 2020

LawnXweeds said:
Yes, I was planning on using a scrog. I didn't think to let it fill in before I flipped, though, so I will do that. I might have to find a way to raise my lights even more because they are already only 27" from the canopy and it's as high as I can get it without some weird rig up. I'm starting to get impatient to harvest now lol.

install a scrog the soonest, the scrog with distribute the branches horizontally and limits your vertical growth, and once you train it flip the lights. as it will be more harder to shape it after you flower, stems get harder and tend to break rather than bend.

LawnXweeds · Feb 15, 2020

I think I have another problem. Around the beginning of February, I switched from Wally World/Primo RO water to using my tap water. Due to the fact that I am using a "living soil" and sooooo many people say tap is best and you can throw away all your PH stuff, i never PH'd my water. Until a couple days ago, that is. When I PH'd my tap, it came out at ~7.8. The Primo water is ~6.8.

Well, I now have a plant that is droopy, some of the lower/older leaves are turning yellow, then leaf by leaf are turning brown and dying. the new growth is not very lifelike at all, curves down and is rather twisted.

Thoughts?

LawnXweeds · Feb 15, 2020

Here are some more pics of lower/older growth

Aussieaceae · Feb 15, 2020

Just my 2cents,

What kind of nitrogenous amendments do you have on hand?
Something balanced npk wise and likely a little dolomite lime.

You haven't been supplementing any fertilizer at all, only what's in the soil?

Outdoors is admittedly different and I've only really dabbled with DTW hydro indoors.
Cannabis is extra hungry during the first 3 or 4 weeks of bloom. It's growing so fast and will gulp up almost anything you throw at it.
If it was a plant in the ground, i'd be going straight for something like chicken manure and a little dolomite to neutralize it a little.

I think you're on the right track adding some worm castings. Have you anything like blood meal on hand too?

LawnXweeds · Feb 15, 2020

Aussieaceae said:
What kind of nitrogenous amendments do you have on hand?

nothing at the moment other than some worm castings or some Milorganite or Carbon-X also for the lawn.

Aussieaceae said:
You haven't been supplementing any fertilizer at all, only what's in the soil?

just some micronutrients. I've added some liquid kelp, some superthrive and some molasses but all at very low rates. I am expecting major nutes (NPK) from the soil.

Aussieaceae said:
Outdoors is admittedly different and I've only really dabbled with DTW hydro indoors.
Cannabis is extra hungry during the first 3 or 4 weeks of bloom. It's growing so fast and will gulp up almost anything you throw at it.
If it was a plant in the ground, i'd be going straight for something like chicken manure and a little dolomite to neutralize it a little.

I think you're on the right track adding some worm castings. Have you anything like blood meal on hand too?

Thanks. I was going to push to flower as of a few days ago but then I noticed all these problems so I put it off.

curious2garden · Feb 15, 2020

Looks like they need Nitrogen. But the lowest leaves look like they are being lost to lack of light penetration which is pretty common.

LawnXweeds said:
.......snip....
Thanks. I was going to push to flower as of a few days ago but then I noticed all these problems so I put it off.

Good idea to figure this out first. Hopefully a soil grower will be along soon to help you out. I'll throw up the bat signal for a couple good ones; @Tangerine_ @Dr. Who

Best of luck

Aussieaceae · Feb 15, 2020

LawnXweeds said:
nothing at the moment other than some worm castings or some Milorganite or Carbon-X also for the lawn.

just some micronutrients. I've added some liquid kelp, some superthrive and some molasses but all at very low rates. I am expecting major nutes from the soil.

Thanks. I was going to push to flower as of a few days ago but then I noticed all these problems so I put it off.

When abouts did it start?
Any coincidences while using those things?

I enjoy organic soil very much. You'd honestly be surprised how quickly things breakdown and get consumed. Even leached from the soil, especially nitrogen.
Looks to me like you need a bit of everything tbh. At least that's how it appears to me.

No till soil is different, but every few weeks at least, i'm adding manure or something similar and outdoor soil is the most fertile there is.
Imvho, those claims from manufacturers about their soil not needing anything all the way through, is a bit of a gimmick regarding cannabis.
I wouldn't be too concerned about adding a bit of NPK. Even just a little to see.

The soil is draining well and aerated?
Not at all heavy or silty? Doesn't look it in the pics, but it's worth asking. They hate having wet feet...

LawnXweeds · Feb 15, 2020

Aussieaceae said:
When abouts did it start?
Any coincidences while using those things?

Oh shit, I never used Milo or Carbon-X on my cannabis. I was just replying literally to your question of "What kind of nitrogenous amendments do you have on hand?"

However, it started about the same time I started using tap water as opposed to Walmart/Primo RO water.

Aussieaceae said:
I enjoy organic soil very much. You'd honestly be surprised how quickly things breakdown and get consumed. Even leached from the soil, especially nitrogen.
Looks to me like you need a bit of everything tbh. At least that's how it appears to me.

That's exactly how it looks to me too, but this soil is advertised as being a "water only" soil that has enough shit to carry it through flower so I am stuck with having to accept that either the soil sucks or my water/watering habits suck. i am more inclined to believe the latter.

Aussieaceae said:
The soil is draining well and aerated?
Not at all heavy or silty? Doesn't look it in the pics, but it's worth asking. They hate having wet feet...

The soil itself is very loose and my fabric pots seem to be airy enough.

Aussieaceae · Feb 15, 2020

LawnXweeds said:
Oh shit, I never used Milo or Carbon-X on my cannabis. I was just replying literally to your question of "What kind of nitrogenous amendments do you have on hand?"

However, it started about the same time I started using tap water as opposed to Walmart/Primo RO water.

That's exactly how it looks to me too, but this soil is advertised as being a "water only" soil that has enough shit to carry it through flower so I am stuck with having to accept that either the soil sucks or my water/watering habits suck. i am more inclined to believe the latter.

The soil itself is very loose and my fabric pots seem to be airy enough.

Cool ok, no worries, my bad.

Worm castings would be fine. Really not sure about the others at all and I wouldn't use something K specific, especially if it is nitrogen you mostly need. You want something with balance imho.

How long have they been in that soil?
If the manufacturer was expecting the grower to be up potting once or twice, i'd have an easier time believing the claim.

Are you aware of the ec and ph, of your water? That'll give you some idea if your water source is suspect.
Any extra information you think might be important, throw it out there.

i'd wait for some other opinions too, always better to have more than one. Every persons grow and experiences are different.
I'm going to stick with my original recommendation.

Best of luck finding the fix and I'll stay tuned in. :peace:

LawnXweeds · Feb 15, 2020

Aussieaceae said:
How long have they been in that soil?
If the manufacturer was expecting the grower to be up potting once or twice, i'd have an easier time believing the claim.

These plants have been in this soil since 1/4/2020.

Aussieaceae said:
Are you aware of the ec and ph, of your water? That'll give you some idea if your water source is suspect.
Any extra information you think might be important, throw it out there.

The EC of my water, i don't know. unless that is another way of saying PPM via TDS meter, in which case i would say my tap water is 150 PPM w/ a pH of 7.7. That said, I only just now started measuring either so i have no idea what I have been giving it because I would let it bubble for 24 hours plus I added some molasses and some liquid kelp so i have no idea what PH it wound up being.

LawnXweeds · Feb 24, 2020

Another less positive update, hopefully I can get some more generous help. The problem does not seem to be going away.

I've been using strictly RO water since I noticed these issues, but that has only been 3 waterings since I made the switch back. A local grower at the dispensary my wife goes to suggested a home made Cal/mG recipe consisting of ground egg shells and epsom salt (6 egg shells powdered, 1tbsp epsom, 1 liter of water), so the last 3 waterings for both plants has looked like this:

(thing1 is the plant in my OP, thing2 is my other plant that I've not yet mentioned until now)
2/15
Topdressed both plants with a couple inches of worm castings mixed with Indicanja to keep it airy

2/17
Thing1: .5 gal RO water + .5 liter Cal/mG mix
Thing2: .5 gal RO water + .5 liter Cal/mG mix

2/20
Thing1: .5 gal RO water
Thing2: .5 gal compost tea (brewed 2gallons water using worm castings, Purple cow compost and a couple cups of Dr. earth "homegrown" organic fertilizer. Brewed for a few days)

2/23
Thing1: .5 gallon diluted homemade Cal/mG recipe
Thing2: .5 gal RO water

Purpling stems on thing1. taken today

Yellow spot on thing1. Taken 2/22

brown spots on thing2. taken 2/20

closeup of brownspots on thing2. Taken today

I am at a loss here. Did I screw the soil up with my tap water? is it possible that I did not fill the pots enough initially and the plants have already used up all the nutrients? There has been new growth in the last two weeks, but not much. These plants have been going since early December, but in this medium since early January.

Help me Rollitup Kenobi, you're my only hope.

curious2garden · Feb 24, 2020

LawnXweeds said:
Another less positive update, hopefully I can get some more generous help. The problem does not seem to be going away.

I've been using strictly RO water since I noticed these issues, but that has only been 3 waterings since I made the switch back. A local grower at the dispensary my wife goes to suggested a home made Cal/mG recipe consisting of ground egg shells and epsom salt (6 egg shells powdered, 1tbsp epsom, 1 liter of water), so the last 3 waterings for both plants has looked like this:

(thing1 is the plant in my OP, thing2 is my other plant that I've not yet mentioned until now)
2/15
Topdressed both plants with a couple inches of worm castings mixed with Indicanja to keep it airy

2/17
Thing1: .5 gal RO water + .5 liter Cal/mG mix
Thing2: .5 gal RO water + .5 liter Cal/mG mix

2/20
Thing1: .5 gal RO water
Thing2: .5 gal compost tea (brewed 2gallons water using worm castings, Purple cow compost and a couple cups of Dr. earth "homegrown" organic fertilizer. Brewed for a few days)

2/23
Thing1: .5 gallon diluted homemade Cal/mG recipe
Thing2: .5 gal RO water

Purpling stems on thing1. taken today
View attachment 4487816
Yellow spot on thing1. Taken 2/22
View attachment 4487818

brown spots on thing2. taken 2/20
View attachment 4487820

closeup of brownspots on thing2. Taken today
View attachment 4487821

I am at a loss here. Did I screw the soil up with my tap water? is it possible that I did not fill the pots enough initially and the plants have already used up all the nutrients? There has been new growth in the last two weeks, but not much. These plants have been going since early December, but in this medium since early January.

Help me Rollitup Kenobi, you're my only hope.

I'd feed them the majors N, P and K. Overall they look hungry. But you're in soil and organic so I don't know how you'd do that. I'm in hydro. So that's as much help as I'm capable of.

LawnXweeds · Feb 24, 2020

curious2garden said:
I'd feed them the majors N, P and K. Overall they look hungry. But you're in soil and organic so I don't know how you'd do that. I'm in hydro. So that's as much help as I'm capable of.

Thanks. The tea I gave thing2 should have had a good amount of NPK because the fert that was in the "teabag" is 4-6-3. Whether or not its water soluable and that made it to the soil is a different story. I suppose I could top dress some dry fert, but if they truly are "hungry", then the soil is shot somehow so I should probably transplant. how can I be sure? "thing1" was trained weird because I am a noob, so the stem is growing at an angle which is going to make it hard as hell to transplant right.

curious2garden · Feb 24, 2020

LawnXweeds said:
Thanks. The tea I gave thing2 should have had a good amount of NPK because the fert that was in the "teabag" is 4-6-3. Whether or not its water soluable and that made it to the soil is a different story. I suppose I could top dress some dry fert, but if they truly are "hungry", then the soil is shot somehow so I should probably transplant. how can I be sure? "thing1" was trained weird because I am a noob, so the stem is growing at an angle which is going to make it hard as hell to transplant right.

These are all good questions and good points. This is why I grow hydro. I know exactly what my plants are getting at every point along the way and there is no guessing about what might be left. I'm just not good enough to grow in soil yet. So you need a grower with more knowledge than I to come along and give you a hand, best of luck.

greg nr · Feb 24, 2020

Could be root damage. If it is, your plants are having trouble getting any nutrients.

Your started off in a dense medium and then transplanted without any root hormones i presume (great white, mycos, etc)? Also, your new soil looks like it could use some more perlite for drainage. Just indicators, not proof.

If you haven't, try adding some microbes; recharge, mamoth-p, tribus, growkashi, etc. Teas have some, but these are concentrates. Microbes will help heal your roots and promote new growth. They will also make nutes more available.

To get some n into your soil, topdress with a sprinling of growkasi/bokashi and then cover that with earth worm castings and/or composted manure (not chicken - too hot). The growkashi will form a layer of microrhysa below the ewc.

Well, those are a few "organic" things you can try. You can also mix up some salt nutes to about 350 ppm and add those. They will rinse out over time and won't end up affecting your product, but will jumpstart the plants. If you do that, follow up with microbes to rebuild the soil.

LawnXweeds · Feb 24, 2020

greg nr said:
Could be root damage. If it is, your plants are having trouble getting any nutrients.

Your started off in a dense medium and then transplanted without any root hormones i presume (great white, mycos, etc)? Also, your new soil looks like it could use some more perlite for drainage. Just indicators, not proof.

I did add some Mycos to the hole i transplanted into and the soil has perilite and is pretty airy. The top layer is a bit dense because I topdressed with worm castings.

greg nr said:
If you haven't, try adding some microbes; recharge, mamoth-p, tribus, growkashi, etc. Teas have some, but these are concentrates. Microbes will help heal your roots and promote new growth. They will also make nutes more available.

To get some n into your soil, topdress with a sprinling of growkasi/bokashi and then cover that with earth worm castings and/or composted manure (not chicken - too hot). The growkashi will form a layer of microrhysa below the ewc.

Well, those are a few "organic" things you can try. You can also mix up some salt nutes to about 350 ppm and add those. They will rinse out over time and won't end up affecting your product, but will jumpstart the plants. If you do that, follow up with microbes to rebuild the soil.

Thanks, I will give some of that a shot.

LawnXweeds · Mar 15, 2020

Another minor update.

Going on month 4 of veg because I tried my damndest to fix whatever issue was plaguing my girls. I am not 100% confident I did, but they are growing steadily and I think the brown spots and yellowing has stopped progressing, so today i up-potted to 5 gallon pots in preparation to finally say fuck it and flip to flower in a week or so. I am pretty sure curious2garden was right all along in that the plants were hungry because when I initially filled my 3 gallon pots, I had maybe 1/4 bag let over. However, I came up a little short when backfilling the 5 gallon pots even though both plants had a damn solid root ball and I did not lose much soil when i pulled them out of the 3 gallon pots. I was already assuming I didn't use enough soil to begin with and this leads me to believe that was correct.

Also, I have done some training with safety pins and some soft wire ties, I even built a SCROG system with twine and PVC. However, I had to take it down because I have been doing a lot of clean up of the dead/dying leaves. In a few days after they recover from transplant, I will put the SCROG system back in place.

Stunted + nutrient burn?

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