Stop blaming "issues" on pH people! aka "ah cant take no mo'!

plaguedog said:

BULLSHIT. The biggest threat to changing a substrates pH is ALKALINITY, something most growers have zero clue of on pot forums. pH and ALKALINITY in your water source ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

Click to expand...

True. My well water is super high in Mg and Ca bicarbonates with a high alkalinity but the pH is 7.02.

Here's one of the best on the subject, worth printing out so you have a paper for reference - http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAFertilizers.pdf

plaguedog said:

Here you go, enjoy:

.....The alkalinity level has far-reaching implications because high alkalinity has a strong effect on the substrate pH. Of two water sources, one with a pH of 9.0 and alkalinity of 50, and the other with a pH of 7.0 and alkalinity of 300, the former will raise substrate pH very little, while the latter will cause a much higher raise in the substrate pH. In general, water alkalinity is more important in determining effects on substrate pH than the actual pH of water.

Click to expand...

Had to take a double take on that, it's spot on. Pulled my well water analysis and it confirms this. (Never gave it much thought). After a severe and prolonged drought, like 5" of rain in the year 2011 from Sept. 2010, I pulled this sample 2 days before we started to get good rainfall just to see what the difference was from a wet year in 2005. Notice the Alkalinity/pH - 344 ppm, pH - 6.71 Analysis was done in regards to my farm drip irrigation system.

Not trying to tell people they are wrong, merely present my view on the subject, and support that view, if needed.

Read your first post, UB, and have to disagree with it a bit. I have seen more plant pics on the infirmary boards over the years that have a pH issue, than probably most any other problem. Of course, the way the symptoms manifest vary, and the course of action that is oft suggested, in addition to epsom salts for the Mg, is a bottle of Cal/Mag. I recognoze your hnadle, I think. You've been around for a while. Remember when the Ca/Mag craze started? Two things contributed to the craze. The first being Botanicare's shitty Pure Blend Pro, that was way low on Ca and Mg, before you even opened the bottle. The second being the wrong pH strived for.

It is too high. Both in hydro and dirt. In hydro, you want to start around 5.1-5.3 and let it float to 5.9-6.1, no more than 6.3 in flower. A huge, huge fuggin' problem here is what people call soil, too.

Most people who are 'dirt farmers', are NOT soil farmers. Big, big difference. If your mix is mostly peat/perlitite/vermiculite and pretty airy, you are not a soil grower ... you are a hand-watering, drain to waste, hydro growing mofo. And need to use the appropriate range, which the vast, vast majority don't.

Although Sweet Lady Jane, like many, many plants, can survive and grow in a wide range of pH, there is most definitely the 'sweet spot'. That is where you want to live with your nutrient regime, else quality and quantity suffer at harvest. And that 'sweet spot' that has been thrown around these forums all these years, is too high. For both hydro and what most people incorrectly label as soil grows.

Pay close attention to the pH of your nutrient regiment you fertilize with. It is that important ...

My tap is 10 grains hardness and has total alkalinity between 60-80 Uncle Ben. My TDS pen shows between 180-220 ppm when I check it. I use RO water now and it has improved the way the plants burn. Anyone care to break down the science on this? My medium is Sunshine4 bales.

cornchi said:

My tap is 10 grains hardness and has total alkalinity between 60-80 Uncle Ben. My TDS pen shows between 180-220 ppm when I check it. I use RO water now and it has improved the way the plants burn. Anyone care to break down the science on this? My medium is Sunshine4 bales.

Click to expand...

I'm not UB, but ...

Well, the exact science, no. Need all kinds 'o info. That being said, when you take tap water and add nutes, chemical reactions occur and some of the nutes precipitate out of the solution, never being available to the plant. Fuggin' wasted before you every feed yer ladies with it. This can lead to an overall jacked up proportion of nutrients in the rootzoone, etc., and can manifest in multiple ways. Obviously, the pH of the tap water will be high, and raise the overall pH of your nute solution (not good).

If you are not adjusting the pH (you shouldn't - that can easily fuck up a nute solution), the pH of your nutrient solution is now lower with RO water, potentially quite a bit, and in a more proper range, in addition to you not undoing some of the nutrient mfgs work by mixing it with tap and changing the composition of the solution with the junk in the tap water. Tap water has caused a lot of confusion and tail chasing. Tap water varies from location to location, and sometimes hourly at the same location.

And no, if you use a good base nute in the proper pH range, you do NOT need to buy a bottle of Cal/Mag when you use RO water ...

There are just too many people on pot forums that don't understand their water source, and they think by "adjusting" the pH that it will somehow alter the substrate or medium they are growing in, curing every issue that crops up when in reality they couldn't be farther from the truth. Hell most people on here have never bothered to look up or have their water source even tested in the first place.

Uncle Ben said:

True. My well water is super high in Mg and Ca bicarbonates with a high alkalinity but the pH is 7.02.

Here's one of the best on the subject, worth printing out so you have a paper for reference - http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAFertilizers.pdf

Click to expand...

Yup, that's a perfect example of what we are talking about here.

From that article: (Pay attention, kids)

"It is important to note that the two things that
affect substrate-pH the most (water alkalinity and
ammoniacal nitrogen) can not be directly measured with
a pH meter. Water alkalinity must be measured with an
alkalinity test (see Part 2 of this series for a list of
commercial laboratories that do alkalinity testing). The
percentage of ammoniacal nitrogen in the fertilizer
needs to be calculated based on the information
supplied on the fertilizer bag (See Table 1)."

Why don't ya'll grab a bowl, like I just did, and I'll show you a couple of pics from a couple past gardens, to show you what I am talking about.

But first, I need to tell you where I sit, before I tell you where I stand. I'm just some freshly registered knucklehead who hopped in a old thread, started by a dude with 5,000+ posts, who's handle I think I have seen around for a while since OG days, and I am sure is well respected here, and disagreeing with him on the premise of said thread.

I do so respectfully and were I to draw conclusions from nothing more than your avatar, Uncle Ben, I would assume you to be a guy that has grown for a while, probably outdoors in Cali - just a guess with little info to go off of, though. My gig is indoor, that is where the experiences I speak from originate. Different ball game sans Sun and real, outdoor soil.

In these few pics, you will see probably 50-60 different strains, five different lighting systems, Ebb & Flow, RDWC and peat/perlite/vermiculite (NOT soil) in 5ga Homers. Some of those plants are several years old and were bonsai'ed for a few of them. The key thing I want to point out is that all of these plants are on RO water, the same nutrient regime (strengths varied for light and growing system, of course - but same proportions of the same nutrients and additives) and at the same pH. Even the 5 gallon 'dirt plants'. The same pH I am advocating for hydro, 'cause in essence, those were hydro plants. A nice, heavy on the perlite mix for more precise rootzone control and a good 15% runoff and that is exactly what it is - a hand fertilized, drain to waste, hydroponic growing system.

Not soil.

And ya wanna know what you do not see in those 50-60 strains? You won't see a Ca def, a Mg def, nor a pH issue. And you will not find one bottle of Cal/Mag in those growrooms, either. Nor plants either blatantly showing or subtlely displaying the signs of an N toxicity, like I have seen in many Cal/Mag infused gardens.

PBP, The Lucas Formula, the spreading of RO water use and the incorrect assumption that you need to 'replace' the Ca and Mg that was in the tap water, people calling peat/perlite/vermiculite mixes soil, are a few of the things that lead to the shared frustration I have with the use of Epsom Salts, IMO. Any of which I could expand upon, if asked.

And if you have been around da weed forums as long as I think you have, UB, I know you have seen that stupid fuggin blue pH chart that St0ney made while he was a mod at the old HC, like 10+ years ago. I hate that fucking thing that has ended up as a sticky on a whole bunch of weed forums.

Talk about an epsom salt junky. That was one of his cure all's. On top of that, he got shit wrong with his 5.8 optimal hydro pH shit. On top of that, a rectangular bar graph does not accurately represent different absorption rates at different pH. But that goddamned thing is everywhere, still. As is Cal/Mag. My personal 'epsom salt'.

So, what da fug. Ya'll load up another bowl, 'cause that's what I am going to do. Might be two bowls of shitty dispensary weed, and I probably am going to feed the doggies while I'm up, so it might take me a second ...

... Mmkay, I'm back. How was yer puff?

These gardens I am going to show you are shut down, so I don't mind showing you something like a 10,000 Watt Mother Room. Ya'll can fuck off on seeing a clone room packed with a couple thousands cuts, though. I was never stupid enough to photo document that shit - 10 years is a long time in big boy federal prison to try to keep someone's dick outta yer ass. Not in the game right now, at all. My 41 y.o. ass is beat the fuck up with several exploded discs in my spine and a few other miscellanous things from too many years of crashing, while going way too fuckin' fast, on multiple things. So, I had to make changes in my life in the last few years. Couple that with a mother that needed some in-home help after some surgeries (no, she's not a smoker), well, right now I don't even own one burned out lamp - it's all gone.

And the only thing I regret getting rid of was a Colorado bred strain that kicked ass.

It's all good, though. Driving around camping in Colorado for 2-4 weeks at a time with the doggies, even winter, for a few months is fun, too. And doesn't take shit for money to do. But not conducive to running a garden. Only momentary shut down for me. Probably be personal, full legit med garden, though, next time 'round. The only shitty part is buying so-so weed in dispensaries. Real shitty, but oh well.

On with the pics ...

Small three light E&F veg room. Fresh rooted clones in a 2x4 under an 8 bulb T5 for one week, under a 400 and a 3x3 in week two and up to a 4x4 under a thowie for two weeks (I eventually added top drip feed to the thowie tray). Every two weeks, a new crop moved into the 4000W flower room in a 4x4 under a thowie. Four of those 4x4 trays in the flower room, plus CO2, AC, dehumidifier, etc. An 8 week strain could harvest one thowie every two weeks:



24 site RDWC system fired by 6 vertical thowies. All mothers. Each one a different strain. All on one res. No Cal/Mag, and somehow, my Sweet Lady Jane plants, that some run around calling a whore, as in, "Man, [insert strain name here] is such a Ca whore.", seem just fine - all 24 different strains on one res (proper pH range is critical in achieving this - which is why I am posting in this thread, not to be douche or try to pull some dick waving grand entrance move).

I had just given my girls a trip to the salon - a little trimming and maintenance shaping is the reason for the leaves on the floor, obviously cleaned up after taking pic:



Some E&F moms (smaller and in kind of a holding state) and some dirt mothers (that are not soil grown plants) in the same 10,000W room as the buckets, as I had enough lights off and was probably cleaning, or sumpin' like that, packing all those plants around one wee thwoie with a bat wing (that was just for that tray in actual use):



I have had my hands on over 80 strains. Exceptions to be sure, but most survive and thrive on the same nute regiment (I think another point we might agre upon, UB, maybe?). And it should be of no surprise that those exceptions were either pure Sativas or strongly dominant Sativa pheno hybrids.

That is about all I can do to try to persuade anyone on both how important proper pH ranges are and how the majority opinion on all of these forums is too high (strong roots in the spread of St0ney's stupid, fuckin', wrong blue chart). And to use the pH I suggest in mostly PPV mixes, too. 'Cause that shit ain't soil. Good and airy, 15% runoff, and that is hydro, too.

I'll clarify, but not looking for a huge argument or pissing contest with anyone. My knucklehead ass comes here in peace to try to help beginner - intermediate level growers, especially real deal medical ones, with what I have learned. Or with what my dumbass genuinely thinks I have learned ...

plaguedog said:

There are just too many people on pot forums that don't understand their water source, and they think by "adjusting" the pH that it will somehow alter the substrate or medium they are growing in, curing every issue that crops up when in reality they couldn't be farther from the truth. Hell most people on here have never bothered to look up or have their water source even tested in the first place.

Click to expand...

I have a strong dislike of pH Up & Down. It is pretty easy to complete fuck up your nutrient solution with it, before it ever hits yer ladies feet.

One last caveat I want to add to the info I have presented here. It is, and always has been from me on these weed sites, intended for those old enough to vote. If that ain't you, well, fuggin' scram. And then go knock your parents upside that head for me and tell 'em, "Some Mountain Tick dude in Colorado named Cat Jockey says that just cause it is 2013, with smart phones and computers everywhere, doesn't mean it's okay for you, as my parents, to not know what the fuck websites I am reading."

And if they think it is okay for you to be reading this shit as a minor, knock 'em up the other side of their head for me, please.

And come back when yer old enough to vote ...

Cat Jockey said:

I have a strong dislike of pH Up & Down. It is pretty easy to complete fuck up your nutrient solution with it, before it ever hits yer ladies feet.

Click to expand...

I appreciate your input, nice pics and nice post above. I have to somewhat disagree with you about soiless medium being just like hydro though. This article explains it pretty well.
http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAPlantNutrition.pdf
And read the last paragraph on container growing.

I think a lot of growers using a peat based mix (highly acidic) that is then amended with dolomite lime don't have to worry as much about the pH in the substrate for a variety of reasons mainly to do with the type of fertilizer they are feeding the plants with. As explained here:http://www.staugorchidsociety.org/PDF/IPAFertilizers.pdf

"The effect that a water-soluble fertilizer has on
substrate pH is dependent on the reactions that take
place once the fertilizer has been applied to the crop and
are based on the type of nitrogen contained in the
fertilizer. There are three types of nitrogen used in
water-soluble fertilizers: ammoniacal nitrogen (NH4-N),
nitrate nitrogen (NO3-N) and urea (Figure 1). Uptake of
ammoniacal nitrogen causes the substrate-pH to
decrease because H+(acidic protons) are secreted from
roots in order to balance the charges of ions inside the
plant with the solution surrounding the outside of the
roots. Urea is easily converted into ammoniacal
nitrogen in the substrate and therefore can be thought of
as another source of ammoniacal nitrogen. In contrast,
uptake of nitrate nitrogen increases substrate-pH
because OH-or HCO3- (bases) are secreted by plant
roots in order to balance nitrate uptake."

Now it would seem to me, depending on your water source, that while using a peat based mix your best bet would be a fertilizer make up with more nitrate nitrogen (GH Maxi series...etc) because it tends to help along with the lime balance out the acidity of the peat. But again you need to balance that against the water quality and the alkalinity content. Yes it all gets very confusing.

All I know is I don't ever pH my water/nutrient mix and with my substrate (used to use a peat base, been using a pine bark mix lately) and never really have any issues. And that's when and if I need anything in the first place.(my mix is loaded with all kinds of shit, that usually sustains me throw the entire grow)

For the record, the water I use has a pH of 7.74
Alkalinity (CaCO3, mg/l):105

Last time I checked.....

I read the shorter of the two, and started skimming the longer one - I'll go back and read it through, but I'll start with my thoughts on the 2 pager.

For full disclosure, I am a multiple time college drop out, with about 1.5 years left on degrees in Electrical Engineering and Mathematics. Any PhD's I have come from the University of Hard Knocks, and may or may not be worth a shit. That said, I don't know if the orchid growing Good Doctor shares the same nomenclature with us fuggin' stoners:

Many growers make the assumption that growing in containers is like growing hydroponically. Unless water is constantly dripping out of the bottom of the container, then it is not like hydroponics

So, since I never have had water constantly dripping out of the containers I used in my Ebb & Flow trays with expanded clay, I wasn't growing hydroponically? Maybe there is some super secret, super precise, PhD knowin' definition of hydroponic growing, but if that is the case, we are all going to have to join forces and rewrite a whole bunch 'o fuggin' weed site posts and books to correct ourselves and our terminology, my fellow stoner.

Let me ask you. Do you think a tray full of Ebb & Flow Sweet Lady Jane Plants needs nutrient solution 'constantly dripping out of the bottom of the contatiner' to be called a hydroponic system?

Plants species differ in their ability to take up nutrients at a given pH level. While there are not good examples with orchids, there are good examples with other plants produced in containers

I would suggest to Dr. Orchid, that were he to investigate our gal, Sweet Lady Jane, he just might find her to be a shining example of one of the 'other plants'.

For example, geraniums and African marigolds ... are often grown at a relatively high substrate pH (6.0 to 6.8 ) compared to most container grown crops ... At the other end of the spectrum are plants like rhododendrons, blue berries, and petunias ... are often grown at a relatively low substrate pH (5.2 to 6.2).

I would suggest to the author of that paper that DJ Short got dat shit right calling a strain Blueberry, 'cause Sweet Lady Jane likes the same pH range of the substrate, which in E&F is the pH of the nute solution, for all intent and purpose. I advocate 5.1-6.1 and no more than 6.2-6.3 in flower.

I really don't get the guy's definition of hydroponic growing, though ...

I fully get the 5.8-6.2 as a general range for all plants, but as this paper points out, there are exceptions to that generalization, of which I believe Sweet Lady Jane to be one. And it is another reason St0ney got it wrong, IMO - referring to that oft recited range in papers like this - papers about a completely different plant species. There really aren't these kind of papers for weed, not a lot of them at least. I have seen a lot of pdfs from Universities, too, usually dealing with soil stuff. Problem is, these studies are aimed, usually, at outdoor food crops in real deal soil.

As far as acidic peat, I have dealt with shit in the low 4's, without much problem, if any. That is why I advocate at least 15% runoff every feed and 3 flushes with something like Clearex, the only Botanicare product I think worth a shit, and 3 times the volume of the container. Doesn't drain as fast as clay pellets, but achieves the same rootzone environment in the sense of that moist primordial mist shit that's going on inbetween floods on a tray. I suggest a light and airy peat mix, as well, which makes it act more like E&F.

I ain't gots no problems agreeing to disagree on some of the finer points of Sweet Lady Jane farming, as we are here in a friendly fashion, my fellow fuggin' stoner, and I'll definitely give that other pdf a good read, for sure and share my thoughts on it. Before I get to that, though, I gots to see if this Matanuska Thunder Fuck I just picked up at a disp today is anywhere near the quality of some of this shit I have chopped, cured and smoked. Probably need to feed the doggies again after a nice little early evening stroll through the Colorado woods.

Awesome Thread Ben.

Cat Jockey said:

I read the shorter of the two, and started skimming the longer one - I'll go back and read it through, but I'll start with my thoughts on the 2 pager.

For full disclosure, I am a multiple time college drop out, with about 1.5 years left on degrees in Electrical Engineering and Mathematics. Any PhD's I have come from the University of Hard Knocks, and may or may not be worth a shit. That said, I don't know if the orchid growing Good Doctor shares the same nomenclature with us fuggin' stoners:

Many growers make the assumption that growing in containers is like growing hydroponically. Unless water is constantly dripping out of the bottom of the container, then it is not like hydroponics

So, since I never have had water constantly dripping out of the containers I used in my Ebb & Flow trays with expanded clay, I wasn't growing hydroponically? Maybe there is some super secret, super precise, PhD knowin' definition of hydroponic growing, but if that is the case, we are all going to have to join forces and rewrite a whole bunch 'o fuggin' weed site posts and books to correct ourselves and our terminology, my fellow stoner.

Let me ask you. Do you think a tray full of Ebb & Flow Sweet Lady Jane Plants needs nutrient solution 'constantly dripping out of the bottom of the contatiner' to be called a hydroponic system?

Plants species differ in their ability to take up nutrients at a given pH level. While there are not good examples with orchids, there are good examples with other plants produced in containers

I would suggest to Dr. Orchid, that were he to investigate our gal, Sweet Lady Jane, he just might find her to be a shining example of one of the 'other plants'.

For example, geraniums and African marigolds ... are often grown at a relatively high substrate pH (6.0 to 6.8 ) compared to most container grown crops ... At the other end of the spectrum are plants like rhododendrons, blue berries, and petunias ... are often grown at a relatively low substrate pH (5.2 to 6.2).

I would suggest to the author of that paper that DJ Short got dat shit right calling a strain Blueberry, 'cause Sweet Lady Jane likes the same pH range of the substrate, which in E&F is the pH of the nute solution, for all intent and purpose. I advocate 5.1-6.1 and no more than 6.2-6.3 in flower.

I really don't get the guy's definition of hydroponic growing, though ...

I fully get the 5.8-6.2 as a general range for all plants, but as this paper points out, there are exceptions to that generalization, of which I believe Sweet Lady Jane to be one. And it is another reason St0ney got it wrong, IMO - referring to that oft recited range in papers like this - papers about a completely different plant species. There really aren't these kind of papers for weed, not a lot of them at least. I have seen a lot of pdfs from Universities, too, usually dealing with soil stuff. Problem is, these studies are aimed, usually, at outdoor food crops in real deal soil.

As far as acidic peat, I have dealt with shit in the low 4's, without much problem, if any. That is why I advocate at least 15% runoff every feed and 3 flushes with something like Clearex, the only Botanicare product I think worth a shit, and 3 times the volume of the container. Doesn't drain as fast as clay pellets, but achieves the same rootzone environment in the sense of that moist primordial mist shit that's going on inbetween floods on a tray. I suggest a light and airy peat mix, as well, which makes it act more like E&F.

I ain't gots no problems agreeing to disagree on some of the finer points of Sweet Lady Jane farming, as we are here in a friendly fashion, my fellow fuggin' stoner, and I'll definitely give that other pdf a good read, for sure and share my thoughts on it. Before I get to that, though, I gots to see if this Matanuska Thunder Fuck I just picked up at a disp today is anywhere near the quality of some of this shit I have chopped, cured and smoked. Probably need to feed the doggies again after a nice little early evening stroll through the Colorado woods.

Click to expand...

It's not a great explanation by any means, but you said yourself you have dealt with shit in the low 4's without any problems. A lot of the organic bottled fertilizers tend to drop pH readings way the fuck off the charts(low 4's....earth juice), yet because the mix or substrate acting as such a strong buffer it rarely seems to effect the plants ability to process what it needs to grow. There is a combination of things at work here, the type of nitrogen the plants are getting along with the alkalinity of the water source are the two major factors on determining if the overl pH of the substrate go out of the range where the plant can't process the nutrients to grow correctly whether it's orchids or our beloved MJ. Hell even with GH's organic line of fertilizers they tell you the pH of the nutrient mix doesn't need to be regulated.

Now, I'm not a hydro grower and never pretended to be one, but I would always check the pH if ebb and flow, DWC..etc was the way I was doing it. But for potted containers with your standard peat mix with a little amendments, I never had to.

I also think the time we grow these plants indoors plays a role. Were not talking about a perennial here, these plants are your basic foliage annuals that have a limited life span, and over this short period of time it's hard to really change the substrates pH levels.

Not that you care, pd, but got sidetracked. I see I need to read a post of yours, and will, but I gotta get that other pdf banged out first. In the interim, since I have thrown a few things out there, like an overuse of Cal/Mag tied to, among other things, the pH range suggested by the paper, and I assume yourself, allow me to focus in the pH range issue, before the substrate and alkalinity issues.

This should be a familiar chart to some, and it is the one I think accurate:



On the left is for soil, real soil, with clay and sand and such. Since I have thrown a lot of assertions out there at this point, for this post, forget about the one regarding PPV being, essentially, a drain to waste hydro system, and focus on just traditional hydro, like Ebb & Flow or DWC. Now, St0ney's a dude who had Mg issues in his hydro grow, incorrectly solved with epsom salts, of course, fuggin' chart says that 5.8 is the optimal hydro pH range. BullfugginShit. I drew that yellow line about where 5.8 is, I think.

Any wonder people might actually have plants showing a Ca or Mg deficiency if they are forcing their nute solution to stay right around 5.8? And then start throwing epsom salt and Cal/Mag in their res to try to fix a symptom, not the actual problem - wrong pH range used. Whereas in the 5.3-5.4 range, the plants can exchange 'more' Mg from the nutrient solution and like about 5.2-5.3 for optimal Ca exchange. Look at P as you drift above 6.0. Start getting above about 6.4 and P starts precipitating out of the nutrient solution. You take a fresh res over 6.4, and you pretty much just fucked it up and need to dump it and start over.

I really believe pH to be pretty important, to both achieve the proper range and doing it the proper way (pretty much never crackin' a bottle of pH adjuster), and I do believe it to be the source of many posts on the infirmary boards - problem is, the wrong pH range is usually prescribed, IMO. I need to do some reading ...

Cat Jockey, welcome to RIU and the thread. Nice garden and must say it's refreshing to read text from another who can write proper prose. Having said that, I still maintain that cannabis is very pH tolerant when it comes to those 'essential' elements required for good growth and that's all that matters. Don't care if your plants "see" a pH of 5.0 or 8.2, are they uptaking the proper elements in the proper ratio?

Hell, many are buying cheap pH meters, not calibrating with fresh solutions, and correctly measuring the values of their mediums whether that be water culture or soil. The first person to point out that the pH emotionalism is way out of hand was a hydro grower about 15 years ago.

Like I said before, soil is a powerful buffer and it appears the popular trend is to "water my plants with ph'd water". I say, "knock yourself out. Always used chlorinated water and never adjusted my water's pH...and aint about to start now."

Yes, isn't my first rodeo. Probably have about 50K posts under my belt in about 8 forums, most defunct, and that includes the old encrypted chained servers posting on non image Newsgroups years ago - ADPC. Modded the first real cannabis forum cannabis.com aka Marihemp and then OG, CW, etc. followed. Like the hundreds of seed chuckers claiming to have invented the Holy Grail, there's a hundred grow forums, and they're all about the same.

Uncle Ben

Why isn't this stickied in the Newbie and/or General yet?

cornchi said:

My tap is 10 grains hardness and has total alkalinity between 60-80 Uncle Ben. My TDS pen shows between 180-220 ppm when I check it. I use RO water now and it has improved the way the plants burn. Anyone care to break down the science on this? My medium is Sunshine4 bales.

Click to expand...

It's the total salts that is the issue. The application of ultra hard water without any plant food can burn roots and induce the common symptoms of high salts over time - leaf tip burn, margin burn and/or cupping. See my Plant Moisture sticky in Plant Problems. If I want to push my plants with plant food I always use rain water. You want to start off with a water source that has little to no salts, and rainwater is the perfect solution. There's a reason why plants love it....it's all they've known. I recently installed a rainwater collection system on both the house and greenhouse. A greenhouse gutter drops into a 305 gal. tank and a cheap 120V Wayne pump is used to deliver water to my tropicals using a convenient water hose. Thinking about installing a Dosatron for salts injection.

BTW, 10 grains is considered "hard" by TX A&M. What's your primary salts?

UB

ProdigalSun said:

Why isn't this stickied in the Newbie and/or General yet?

Click to expand...

Request that it be from potroast, owner/admin.

Cat Jockey said:

Not that you care, pd, but got sidetracked. I see I need to read a post of yours, and will, but I gotta get that other pdf banged out first. In the interim, since I have thrown a few things out there, like an overuse of Cal/Mag tied to, among other things, the pH range suggested by the paper, and I assume yourself, allow me to focus in the pH range issue, before the substrate and alkalinity issues.

This should be a familiar chart to some, and it is the one I think accurate:

View attachment 2885519

On the left is for soil, real soil, with clay and sand and such. Since I have thrown a lot of assertions out there at this point, for this post, forget about the one regarding PPV being, essentially, a drain to waste hydro system, and focus on just traditional hydro, like Ebb & Flow or DWC. Now, St0ney's a dude who had Mg issues in his hydro grow, incorrectly solved with epsom salts, of course, fuggin' chart says that 5.8 is the optimal hydro pH range. BullfugginShit. I drew that yellow line about where 5.8 is, I think.

Any wonder people might actually have plants showing a Ca or Mg deficiency if they are forcing their nute solution to stay right around 5.8? And then start throwing epsom salt and Cal/Mag in their res to try to fix a symptom, not the actual problem - wrong pH range used. Whereas in the 5.3-5.4 range, the plants can exchange 'more' Mg from the nutrient solution and like about 5.2-5.3 for optimal Ca exchange. Look at P as you drift above 6.0. Start getting above about 6.4 and P starts precipitating out of the nutrient solution. You take a fresh res over 6.4, and you pretty much just fucked it up and need to dump it and start over.

I really believe pH to be pretty important, to both achieve the proper range and doing it the proper way (pretty much never crackin' a bottle of pH adjuster), and I do believe it to be the source of many posts on the infirmary boards - problem is, the wrong pH range is usually prescribed, IMO. I need to do some reading ...

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hmmmm ...been doin hydro a loooong time, and I'm having mg/ca issues now with just one plant .... can't figure out WTF.... keeping a open mind, so I'll lower the pH and see what shakes... (I normally don't rip too much but do hold steady around 5.8-ish....)