Sr. Verde's: Concentrate Corner

dankshizzle said:

I guess it's more for when your making oz of errl more than just a couple grams. When you have a large crop every 3 months and you make enough oil to last you that three months you don't want a degrading product that after a couple weeks is a powder.
Your right it is personal preference. And my preference is to have a strongest longest lasting products. Isn't whipping it stirring the butane into your product? Mixing the waxes in.

Click to expand...

lol i was with yah right up until you think that whipping mixes waxes in lol

i dont care WHAT you do to try and purge butane out of oil, no matter WHAT you do, there will ALWAYS be the paraffin and mercaptin left over. the simple fact is you have created a compound with those substances and the desired cannabinoids... without using chemistry you CANNOT seperate them!

all of you need to sit down with a chemistry text book and start reading to see WHY this is!

this doesnt apply to the guys using TAMI's and food grade n-butane

there is a BIG BIG BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG reason i use ISO and not butane!

The difference between budders, shatters and Waxes



The short answer is wax and water. The reason "budder" is what it is is due to the waxy components of cannabis being pulled by the non-polar hydrocarbon. When the solvent is blown into water or whipped while still losing butane it will complex with water and form wax hydrates, that is water complexed chemically with the wax to make the opaque matrix that contains the actual resin. This matrix can be broken by dry alcohols or heat. The described matrix also binds with hydrogen bonding to the solvents used. This is a persistent stable bond unless broken by chemical or physical means.
The act of "whipping" is used to incorporate materials into a matrix and this is exactly what "budder" is, a stabiized matrix of waxes, resins, water and solvent.
And also the act of whipping even material not purged into water will cause water to precipitate from the static humidity in the air as it is cooling as it evaporates causing condensation in the product. Indeed the only reason "budder" is opaque is the complexed water and consequently solvent. The waxes remain clear in the abscence of water creating the product called "shatter" In the abscence of water to complex with the waxes the product called shatter can be kept loose longer and exposed to vaccum more effectively to remove solvents however NO single pull extracts are going to be solvent free due to the nature of the waxes and resin themselves despite extreme vacuum or even heat as the solvents are chemically tied to the product with hydrogen bonds.
Low heat on a complexed extract gives a dry easily handled product that contains a high terpene content along with a high contaminant load. High heat and high vac produce a low terp low solvent product still full of wax.
Although not as flavorfull as the simple gums( budder and shatter) the only way to be sure you have cleaned out the primary solvent is to dewax, charcoal and heat purge at near the boiling point of the wash solvent under vac to make what is erroneously called an "absolute" this is actually relatively pure cannabinoidal resin when taken to a stiff almost glassy state. Left loose it still contains a trace of the wash solvent. If anyone is interested in more fundamental principles that you are encountering and would like to progress to the next level, let me know. Sharing this knowledge is more important than hoarding it, yet learning from it and applying it is the true payoff

-Sean Black


‎"Water, butane, and hydrated terpenes all sputter and all are signs of half assed work.Fucking budder is the lowest rankest extract there is.Everything that makes it "budder" is bad. From waxes to residual gasses and water it is either trash or a raw gum to be cleaned, not medicine, or even good smoke."

-Jim Freire

irieie said:

I like the consistency of a wax more than a shatter. I used to make shatter until I chipped a piece into my eye. Let me tell you it was not fun. I agree about wax degrading terpenes and I like that because it mellows out the taste a bit and does not kill ur lungs as much. It def does degrad faster but I can't seem to hold onto any for this to be a problem.

Click to expand...

I feel the shatter problem.. It's happened a few times over here too.. Nothing worse than a dab stuck in your eyelash!!

However, I use a laptop at home, and usually dab with my laptop, at home.. So if the oil is wanting to shatter when I scoop a dab - I simply set my glass dish on the warm laptop for a couple minutes and the warmth brings it to a temporary taffy consistency. Perfect to scoop a dab up like some caramel ice cream on a warm day.

oakley1984 said:

this doesnt apply to the guys using TAMI's and food grade n-butane

there is a BIG BIG BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG reason i use ISO and not butane!

Click to expand...

How are you guys finding getting food grade n-butane is these days? I'd like to invest in a closed system but am worried about getting the n-butane without any real excuses..

As far as the residuals in open system BHO making.. I think your right about some substances being stuck.. But I think those substances could be worse, in the grand scheme of chemicals we ingest and inhale on a daily basis. I'd like to think that 10 dabs a day, of 29hg vacuum exposed oil from an open system is still healthier for your body than smoking 5-10 joints a day. I do both, but still.

Join DateApr 2009Location41510 - 40831Posts6,081

[h=2]

Re: budder[/h]

Originally Posted by str8sativa
did you use vector? or are you usin the 99% n-butane



vector for now.

After several lab tests now I'm not convinced that 99% butane is really necessary. After very minimal purging with vector I've gotten clean lab tests.​

oakley1984 said:

lol i was with yah right up until you think that whipping mixes waxes in lol

i dont care WHAT you do to try and purge butane out of oil, no matter WHAT you do, there will ALWAYS be the paraffin and mercaptin left over. the simple fact is you have created a compound with those substances and the desired cannabinoids... without using chemistry you CANNOT seperate them!

all of you need to sit down with a chemistry text book and start reading to see WHY this is!

this doesnt apply to the guys using TAMI's and food grade n-butane

there is a BIG BIG BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIG reason i use ISO and not butane!

Click to expand...

paraffin is used to seal jelly lids. and mercaptin would only be in shitty butane

dry ice to cold water is the tastiest

i believe that i think it is a little harder and takes a little more time to make a good full melt bubble then it is bho

when its winter again and cold at night ill start freezing my fresh trim and using my friends bubble magic machine

oakley1984 said:

lol i was with yah right up until you think that whipping mixes waxes in lol

i dont care WHAT you do to try and purge butane out of oil, no matter WHAT you do, there will ALWAYS be the paraffin and mercaptin left over. the simple fact is you have created a compound with those substances and the desired cannabinoids... without using chemistry you CANNOT seperate them!

all of you need to sit down with a chemistry text book and start reading to see WHY this is!!

Click to expand...

You see. I don't need to read a textbook because I don't feel the need to argue the tired argument of "budder vs shatter". I have my tech down and am happy with my product. I've made budder and yeah it taste good but it loses potency over time. That in my eyes is unstable. I like to go back to my shatter months later and it's the same thing I left. Not crumbled weak budder.
And the whipping mixing waxes thing ended with a question mark. Wich means it was a question not a statement. So maybe you should open a grammar book.

I'm with ya dank... I see no benefit for budder other than an easier, and cheaper process... and maybe bag appeal because people are people with their budder.... However, my *personal opinion* is that if you have the bucks and the time I think vac purged bho aka shatter is the bombsizzle gold medal type stuff ..

I mean like when your 5 purges deep, and those bubbles start slowing down, you know your working with good shit. The dabs are so damn smooth and powerful, not to mention the consistency is super pretty.

if I cant vac purge, im not making bho...

Even before I had an electric pump and chamber I was going to a friends to pump it or pumping my hand off with a mighty vac.

Budder sucks like a vac purge.

dankshizzle said:

Even before I had an electric pump and chamber I was going to a friends to pump it or pumping my hand off with a mighty vac.

Budder sucks like a vac purge.

Click to expand...

Wow you are just soooo cool and know everything. I wish I lived in Michigan so I cohld know as much as you do and be cool like you.

str8sativa said:

paraffin is used to seal jelly lids. and mercaptin would only be in shitty butane

Click to expand...

mercaptin is in ALL lighter refills, PERIOD

it cannot be sold without it, just as propane is not sold without it
its there for safety reasons, believe what you want.... but the laws are VERY strict when it comes to this...

dankshizzle said:

You see. I don't need to read a textbook because I don't feel the need to argue the tired argument of "budder vs shatter". I have my tech down and am happy with my product. I've made budder and yeah it taste good but it loses potency over time. That in my eyes is unstable. I like to go back to my shatter months later and it's the same thing I left. Not crumbled weak budder.
And the whipping mixing waxes thing ended with a question mark. Wich means it was a question not a statement. So maybe you should open a grammar book.

Click to expand...

i have no arguement of budder vs shatter... whatever floats your boat.

simply stating that either or, Still has hard locked contaminates from butane refills.
if you want to "believe" otherwise, go for it.

i made some shatter vac pumped it for about 2.5 hrs total i would switch it between the window sill and the desiccator it made nice smooth shatter. the next day i left it out on the table outside all day came home later it was a solid chunk of yellow wax no whip at all

oakley1984 said:

mercaptin is in ALL lighter refills, PERIOD

it cannot be sold without it, just as propane is not sold without it
its there for safety reasons, believe what you want.... but the laws are VERY strict when it comes to this...

Click to expand...

Mercaptan is non-toxic, and a naturally occurring chemical in things we see and eat everyday. Mercaptan is less corrosive and less toxic than similar sulfur compounds found naturally in rotten eggs, onions, garlic, skunks, and, of course, bad breath. Your bad breath has more toxic mercaptans then my BHO. Mercaptans may be present in certain MJ strains also(see: SKUNK). The refining process for the butane is to remove the waxes. They may not be able to remove it all, The common name for Oleaginous Waxes from petroleum, is Paraffin, which is non-toxic enough to have no known LD-50 data and be used to seal jelly jars, so they are of low concern when extracting. If you are worried about the parafin wax you can winterize and filter out the waxes with pure ethanol (NOT ISO). ISO is toxic, so I would not go around touting ISO as safer than BHO, unless your using pure lab grade ethanol.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spectrum-Ethanol-Ethyl-Alcohol-200-Proof-99-9-Undenatured-100mL-/320965297896?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abb05c6e8

dankshizzle said:

I don't see what stating where I live has to do with any of it other than it is an ignorant statement. You judge people by their geographical location? I'm not trying to be cool in any way. And you obviously have nothing better to do than try and start fights. Your comment looks like it was made by a 16 year old.
wherez task Rok from highly educated live Utah? He must not know anything by your logic. Your plants are probably more mature than you are acting.

Click to expand...

When I grow up I wanna be a real grower and concentrate maker just like you. Get the fuck over yourself.

Aaaahem. Back to the original thread topic and not the ignorant one. I got a bunch of ti pads in the mail today from task @ highly educated and can sell em to ya cheaper than the stores. Hit me up. They are the flower of life ones.