SOIL EXPERTS!! need advice on the perfect soil mix for large grow

hello to everyone,

i dont post very often here, because i find all of the information i need so quickly that i very rarely have to post a question. However, i have been researching outdoor soil mixes for months now, and i cannot come to a conclusion as of yet.

I need some answers, but first let me tell you about the grow.
2 sites (medows in woods) located somewhere in the northeast, 20 clones per site(gorilla style), one of them being all white widow (seedsman), and the other Super lemon haze. Mothers will be started in about 3 weeks from now, and cloning will start shortly after. Im using a bubble cloner, then transplanting into soil, and then to the great outdoors once they are all supercropped in early may. I will be using 2700k and 6500k cfls for the mothers and the clones.


I plan on digging 3x3x3 holes for each clone, and putting a soil mix into the holes. I have narrowed it down to 4 different ideas for the soil for this outdoor gorilla grow:

1. FF original planting mix($20/cu. ft)=way to much money for soil
OR
2. ProMix mixed with organic powder fertilizers from the local organics store
OR
3. Soil mixture made entirely from scratch(i need good recipe) peat, perlite, potting soil, native soil, powder fertilizers ect.
OR
4. Find local farm supply and purchase large amounts of soil and manure, and im not sure if thats a good idea, but it might be the cheapest....not even sure where to start for that one..

if anyone has any advice on this topic it would be much appreciated. I am looking to harvest more weight then last years outdoor grow. Last year i used only native soil and time release Advanced nutes fertilizer and bud size was not impressive.



thanks to all who participate!

or should i go with subcools famous recipe? i have never tried it, i assume it works well..

dudemandigo said:

or should i go with subcools famous recipe? i have never tried it, i assume it works well..

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yes sir. cannot go wrong with that. had first grow couple months ago. i was new to growing and learned a lot. here are some pics of the results from subcool recipe. it wasnt 100 percent complete either. all i did was waterView attachment 1350074

wow..that looks like an impressive bush good job on that! the only problem i have with subcools recipe is that im not sure where to get all of the individual ingredients...i may try to get it as close as possable, however i need to make a total of 150 cu ft of this recipe so i would like to get it as close to perfect as i can...i really have no room for messing up this time!

I found a powdered formula for the "complete" organic additives at my local grow store. I didnt write down any of the information on the bag, but have you had any personal experience with a complete powdered formula thats added into the soil?

I am impressed with sunshine mix #4 right out of the bag, promix with some worm castings,20% perlite and vermiculite is also a great mix

VICTORYGARDENSHYDRO said:

I am impressed with sunshine mix #4 right out of the bag, promix with some worm castings,20% perlite and vermiculite is also a great mix

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thanks for the reply!

i have considered both of those mixes, and at the price of $40/3.5 cu ft, i would have to buy about 30-40 of them equaling more then $1500, and that would be more then my price range allows for soil.

i have 40 plants needing 3 cu ft for each plant...i need to be able to make large quantities for cheaper then $40/3.5 cu ft

Dude,

You have alot of room for error here. I would concentrate on a nice lightly charged mix, and then top dress and feed with liquid organic nutes as needed. Will you be able to visit the plants once a week or so, or is it more a plant and run type deal?
You can start with peat and/or coco mixed with about 20-30% perlite. This would constitute 90% of your mix. Then add about 10% worm castings. From here you can go pretty wild. Guano (both N and P rich), lots of kelp, dolimite lime for Ca and Mg, and some chicken manure for sulfur (as well as many other nutes). I would also add a couple bags of Fox Farm Ocean Harvest, and Roots Organic Organic soil for the biologicals they both contain. Once planted, you can feed with Earthjuice Microblast for micros, Botanicare Ca for calcium, Botanicare Sweet Raw for Magnesium and Sulfer, and whatever liquid organic nute you like for the desired N-P-K at that time. I have also had great luck with top dressings. When I did alot of outdoor I would use more than 10 different products for dressings...including some "all in one" mixes. The key is a little bit of alot of things.
Keep in mind, no matter how good you mix the soil, you're going to need to feed along the way. Planting mature clones in May is going to produce some monster plants. So, don't worry too much about the original mix (other than getting it holding water and breathing well). Instead, concentrate on your feeding program throughout the year.

Here's what HumboldtLocal uses. His plants are fucking epic, and depend on more than just a good soil mix, but imitating that guy is probably a good idea.

My soil mix is as follows.
Sunshine Mix Natural and Organic #4
Nutri Rich high calcium chicken poop
Super Soil Earth Worm Castings
Pahroc Perlite #4
Steamed Bone meal
Kelp
Oyster Shell
Dolomite Lime
Gypsum

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I guess the secret is in how much of each that he chooses to use. I sent him a message to see if he'd post it here but don't hold your breath.

My guess is it is 90% the first four ingredients and a balanced mixture of the rest of the stuff. Let it rest for a while and let it balance out. I'm planning on giving it a shot this spring/summer/fall outdoor season in 4-5 months from now.

collective gardener said:

Dude,

You have alot of room for error here. I would concentrate on a nice lightly charged mix, and then top dress and feed with liquid organic nutes as needed. Will you be able to visit the plants once a week or so, or is it more a plant and run type deal?
You can start with peat and/or coco mixed with about 20-30% perlite. This would constitute 90% of your mix. Then add about 10% worm castings. From here you can go pretty wild. Guano (both N and P rich), lots of kelp, dolimite lime for Ca and Mg, and some chicken manure for sulfur (as well as many other nutes). I would also add a couple bags of Fox Farm Ocean Harvest, and Roots Organic Organic soil for the biologicals they both contain. Once planted, you can feed with Earthjuice Microblast for micros, Botanicare Ca for calcium, Botanicare Sweet Raw for Magnesium and Sulfer, and whatever liquid organic nute you like for the desired N-P-K at that time. I have also had great luck with top dressings. When I did alot of outdoor I would use more than 10 different products for dressings...including some "all in one" mixes. The key is a little bit of alot of things.
Keep in mind, no matter how good you mix the soil, you're going to need to feed along the way. Planting mature clones in May is going to produce some monster plants. So, don't worry too much about the original mix (other than getting it holding water and breathing well). Instead, concentrate on your feeding program throughout the year.

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Thanks alot for your detailed response. I have used a peat based mix before, and im not afraird to try it again. I dont like the idea of showing up there weekly...there are hunters and fishermen in the area, so traveling there as little as possible is wat im going for.


if i used a mix derived of 30%peat 20% coco 30% perlite and 10-20% worm castings+ guano+kelp+lime, a couple of bags of FFOF, and some time release advance nutrients for the flowering stage..do you think i would have good results?? i ask this because i have used the advance nutes time release the last outdoor grow i had, and the plants were HUGEEEE but the buds were average size...in that last grow i did not ammend the soil with anything other then the nutes, so im not sure if the new soil mix with the AN time release would actually be better or not...

wat do you think? would you use the time release AN or go with the liquid and risk being seen....

Snow Crash said:

Here's what HumboldtLocal uses. His plants are fucking epic, and depend on more than just a good soil mix, but imitating that guy is probably a good idea.

I guess the secret is in how much of each that he chooses to use. I sent him a message to see if he'd post it here but don't hold your breath.

My guess is it is 90% the first four ingredients and a balanced mixture of the rest of the stuff. Let it rest for a while and let it balance out. I'm planning on giving it a shot this spring/summer/fall outdoor season in 4-5 months from now.

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i would consider this idea however i cannot afford the $40/bail of sunshine mix for 40-50 plants

Dude,

If you're anything like us, security is always the #1 concern. If you don't feel safe with weekly visits, don't do it.

There are many time release top dressings on the market. Top dressing with high N bat guano can burn the plants if done too heavily. I would find an all purpose top dressing and plenty of kelp top dressing. The kelp wont burn the plants and provides lots of K and micros. You can also consider these plant spikes http://www.hydro-gardens.com/organic.htm They are organic and time release. I would for sure get up there when they start to bud and get some high P nutrients to them. That along with plenty of K should keep the bud size up. You may even top dress some dolimite lime as the budding starts.

In summary, good soild mix, big variety of top dressing and plant spikes at planting time. New spikes, top dressing, and a good liquid feeding once per month, all this + a good dose of high P guano and kelp as the budding starts, more of the same every month through budding every month. And, of course, stop ALL feeding about 4-6 weeks prior to harvest to ensure a good fertilizer free flavor. AND....SEND PICS!

Good Luck, My Man

thanks for the info...

Soo basicly what you are saying is that it is not as important to mix in nutrients with the soil, and to get it to the point where it doesnt need liquid nutes throughout its entire cycle. But instead, just create a soil mixture that will provide the necessary aeration/drainage with minimal added nutrition, and then just put the time release nutes plus top dressings like kelp and guano on there. I currently have the advanced nutrients heavy harvest seen here : http://www.advancednutrients.com/hydroponics/products/heavy_harvest/heavy_harvest_product_information.php


i used them in last years grow, but i did not dig holes for the plants and put in soil. I used only native soil and added the heavy harvest 3 times, once per stage.

Do you think that i will have better results just because i am putting in my soil(as well as HH and guano, kelp, lime) instead of using only native soil and HH?

and yes, when i start them indoor in a few weeks ill be keeping a journal up untill harvest full wth pics

This past summer I used the Heavy Harvest from AN, that coupled with a mix of 50/50 FF soil conditioner and native soil made for a very fertile season. I believe you'd be best off by amending your native soil with another pre-made or home made organic soil mix. The extra native soil keeps costs down while still delivering plenty of nutrients for healthy plants. You can still use the heavy harvest or you can choose to experiment this year with a more natural route i.e. guanos, kelps, castings as stated above.

RDGgreenthumb said:

This past summer I used the Heavy Harvest from AN, that coupled with a mix of 50/50 FF soil conditioner and native soil made for a very fertile season. I believe you'd be best off by amending your native soil with another pre-made or home made organic soil mix. The extra native soil keeps costs down while still delivering plenty of nutrients for healthy plants. You can still use the heavy harvest or you can choose to experiment this year with a more natural route i.e. guanos, kelps, castings as stated above.

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i think i may add about 30% FF 20% coco, 30% native, and 20% perlite, and then add the AN HH as needed per cycle...wow so much thinking on soil....ill have to test the native soils of my 2 locations and make sure that they will be good for this.

Dude,

Using only the native soil on your last crop may have been why the buds were small. I wholly agree with RDG that keeping some native soil mixed in with your recipe will very likely provide a good charge of nutes. You may want to dig out the top foot or so and set it aside to be mixed back in...the top section will contain the most nutrients. Then dispose of the lower section of native soil.

The reason I like to only lightly ammend the initial soil mix is to allow me to heavily fertilize with specific nutrients when the plants need it without worrying about overdoing it. For example, when the budding starts I want to be able to add plenty of P and K. If the initial soil is too rich in nutrients, adding the P and K could burn the plants or result in a lockout. Same for when the plants really start vegetating. I like to use high N guano, which can burn the plants if the soil is already too rich.

What are you doing about watering? Does it rain in the summer where you are? Here in So Cal, watering is a much greater concern than nutrients. I've never seen a plant placed directly in the ground with decent soil and some feeding effort have any nutrient problems. I'm sure you're going to grow some real godzillas.

where ill be placing them, they will get lots of water, last year most of the plants were couple feet taller then me, but like i said yield wasnt anything crazy only a couple of oz.

I think i have decided to do what your saying, just keep the nutes mostly out of the equation untill i add them myself. Sounds easier to me...


have you had any experience with root stimulator when transplanting? like this here: http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-Humboldt-Nutrients-Humboldt-Roots.asp

also, ive had issues when transplanting from aero cloner to soil...have any pointers?

dude if i were you i would skip the ff all together. for your size grow even if you only use a small % of ff your still gonna spend some cake. i have a recipe i use in this thread https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/377845-hillbillybobs-soil-mix.html

the base soil mix is basically a homeade pro-mix and i gotta say its damn close to being the same. for outdoors i have been using a 50/50 peat & compost with dolomite lime, kelp meal, greensand and azomite. i mix a small amount of the native soil and then just worry about the fertilizer as i go. what i am going to do this year is add epsoma plant starter to my mix. it has a few weeks worth of fertilizer and mycorrhizae added & all you have to do is add it while your mixing everything up that way you can just plant your bitches right in the mix and not have to feed for a few weeks. you can make this mix cheap. you could just buy a few yards of compost somewhere and have it delivered to you and just mix it up and let it bake in some trash cans until you dig your holes.

honestly after years of bush grows i think the best outdoor mix is perlite/vermiculite/dry nutes. So much easier to carry in then any soil cause it comes in those big 100litre bags., cheap where i am, and you can mix the per/verm/nute ratios to whatever suits your situation

carrying manures and potting mixes in the bush just isnt possible for big crops

hillbillybobb said:

dude if i were you i would skip the ff all together. for your size grow even if you only use a small % of ff your still gonna spend some cake. i have a recipe i use in this thread https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/377845-hillbillybobs-soil-mix.html

the base soil mix is basically a homeade pro-mix and i gotta say its damn close to being the same. for outdoors i have been using a 50/50 peat & compost with dolomite lime, kelp meal, greensand and azomite. i mix a small amount of the native soil and then just worry about the fertilizer as i go. what i am going to do this year is add epsoma plant starter to my mix. it has a few weeks worth of fertilizer and mycorrhizae added & all you have to do is add it while your mixing everything up that way you can just plant your bitches right in the mix and not have to feed for a few weeks. you can make this mix cheap. you could just buy a few yards of compost somewhere and have it delivered to you and just mix it up and let it bake in some trash cans until you dig your holes.

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thanks!! exactly what i was looking for! i believe i can get all the parts to that recipe, ive never seen epsoma nutes, but ill start looking around...seems much cheaper, especially when bails of peat are only $13, and 3 cuft of perlite is like $20 online

theoneandonlyfat said:

carrying manures and potting mixes in the bush just isnt possible for big crops

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thanks for the pointer, but as it were, i have carried bail after bail after bail of peat deep into the forest, along with all of the other equipment, were talking close to 2000 lbs of total weight. I lugged that shit to 3500ft elevation threw miles of bush...uphill....

this time it wont be nearly as hard because my locations arent located miles up a mountain