So what do we do now with the "refugees"?

OddBall1st

OddBall1st

Well-Known Member
pnwmystery said:
7/8 of the attackers were Belgian/French nationals, one of them was a fake Syrian immigrant.

Yes, this is a reason why we should be helping the refugees rather than closing borders and forcing refugees to use human traffickers. This is a huge 'duh' to anyone familiar with these types of issues, which it's becoming very apparent that you you are not so familiar with (just saying).
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So what`s wrong with setting up refugee camps in Syria, protecting them in Syria, feeding them in Syria and when the bad guys are dead and gone, they get set out back into Syria ?

Now, the way we are going, when the bad guys are gone, and the war is no more, you have nobody there to give it back to because they are all on SNAP in the US or in Germany or France a thousand miles away and the bad guy power grab starts all over again.

Refugees are supposed to be protected, taken care of, nursed, fed, and let free in the country that`s making them seek refuge.

Nobody`s refugee book says take them home, set them free, give them welfare, wait for more.
 
Flaming Pie

Flaming Pie

Well-Known Member
From the Nato under the NUC.

On 2 March 2014, Allies and Ukraine convened an extraordinary meeting of the NUC At their meeting in April 2014, Foreign Ministers of the NATO-Ukraine Commission condemned Russia’s illegal and illegitimate “annexation” of Crimea andstated that NATO and Ukraine would intensify cooperation and promote defence reforms through capacity building and capability development programmes.
 
Flaming Pie

Flaming Pie

Well-Known Member
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm

Still reading chesus, but you know me, I will do my best to find evidence and if I am wrong I will apologize.

Here's a bit more reading:

NATO has respected those commitments faithfully. Russia, on the other hand, has declared the annexation of Crimea, supported violent separatists in the east of the country, and insisted that Ukraine be barred from joining NATO.
 
OddBall1st

OddBall1st

Well-Known Member
Flaming Pie said:
From the Nato under the NUC.

On 2 March 2014, Allies and Ukraine convened an extraordinary meeting of the NUC At their meeting in April 2014, Foreign Ministers of the NATO-Ukraine Commission condemned Russia’s illegal and illegitimate “annexation” of Crimea andstated that NATO and Ukraine would intensify cooperation and promote defence reforms through capacity building and capability development programmes.
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You need to understand that the Ukraine was under the Russian wing doing fine, lots of farmland and the world leader in industrial heavy machinery,...lots of money being made with their own market.

It wasn`t until the United States convinced the many, many rulers in Ukraine to stray away from Russian influence that the super rich controllers of Ukraine became corrupt.

Putin is only taking back what was taken from them. at least trying anyway.
 
C

ChesusRice

Well-Known Member
Flaming Pie said:
http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_111767.htm

Still reading chesus, but you know me, I will do my best to find evidence and if I am wrong I will apologize.

Here's a bit more reading:

NATO has respected those commitments faithfully. Russia, on the other hand, has declared the annexation of Crimea, supported violent separatists in the east of the country, and insisted that Ukraine be barred from joining NATO.
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No where will you find that Ukraine is or was a member of NATO.
 
Flaming Pie

Flaming Pie

Well-Known Member
I read it as this.

Ukraine was actively seeking membership with Nato. They had agreements in effect with Nato but to become a full member they had to make several reformations in their government towards democracy.

They were cooperating with Nato on the transformations necessary.

They would never be able to join Nato if Russia took complete control of them. Russia has stated they don't want the Ukraine to join Nato EVEN THOUGH the agreements that Russia has signed with Nato prohibits them from making a decision like that.

More quotes from NATO:

According to Article I of the Helsinki Final Act (here) which established the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in 1975, every country has the right "to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance." All the OSCE member states, including Russia, have sworn to uphold those principles.

=====

NATO has responded to the new strategic reality caused by Russia's illegitimate and illegal actions in Ukraine by reinforcing the defence of Allies in Central and Eastern Europe, and by ensuring the ability to increase those reinforcements if necessary, including by upgrading infrastructure.

All this is consistent with the Founding Act, quoted above.

In the Founding Act, all signatories, including Russia, agreed on principles which include "refraining from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States contained in the Helsinki Final Act" and the "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents."

NATO has respected those commitments faithfully. Russia, on the other hand, has declared the annexation of Crimea, supported violent separatists in the east of the country, and insisted that Ukraine be barred from joining NATO.
 
OddBall1st

OddBall1st

Well-Known Member
Flaming Pie said:
I read it as this.

Ukraine was actively seeking membership with Nato. They had agreements in effect with Nato but to become a full member they had to make several reformations in their government towards democracy.

They were cooperating with Nato on the transformations necessary.

They would never be able to join Nato if Russia took complete control of them. Russia has stated they don't want the Ukraine to join Nato EVEN THOUGH the agreements that Russia has signed with Nato prohibits them from making a decision like that.

More quotes from NATO:

According to Article I of the Helsinki Final Act (here) which established the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) in 1975, every country has the right "to belong or not to belong to international organizations, to be or not to be a party to bilateral or multilateral treaties including the right to be or not to be a party to treaties of alliance." All the OSCE member states, including Russia, have sworn to uphold those principles.

=====

NATO has responded to the new strategic reality caused by Russia's illegitimate and illegal actions in Ukraine by reinforcing the defence of Allies in Central and Eastern Europe, and by ensuring the ability to increase those reinforcements if necessary, including by upgrading infrastructure.

All this is consistent with the Founding Act, quoted above.

In the Founding Act, all signatories, including Russia, agreed on principles which include "refraining from the threat or use of force against each other as well as against any other state, its sovereignty, territorial integrity or political independence in any manner inconsistent with the United Nations Charter and with the Declaration of Principles Guiding Relations Between Participating States contained in the Helsinki Final Act" and the "respect for sovereignty, independence and territorial integrity of all states and their inherent right to choose the means to ensure their own security, the inviolability of borders and peoples' right of self-determination as enshrined in the Helsinki Final Act and other OSCE documents."

NATO has respected those commitments faithfully. Russia, on the other hand, has declared the annexation of Crimea, supported violent separatists in the east of the country, and insisted that Ukraine be barred from joining NATO.
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Between staying with Ukraine or going with Russia, they voted to go with Russia.

End. Putin forced this vote, nothing more.
 
Flaming Pie

Flaming Pie

Well-Known Member
Ukraine is definitely an ally to Nato and will be a full member in 4-5 years.

They are already on path for membership.

Russia is trying to stop them from joining.
 
Flaming Pie

Flaming Pie

Well-Known Member
ChesusRice said:
If they are not a member. How did NATO fail them as Ben Carson claims in the link you posted?
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Because they have already signed many treaties with nato and cooperated at almost every turn.

They have even sent troops to help Nato in various conflicts.

Why does Russia get to block a cooperative country from joining? Legally they cant. They have signed agreements that prohibits them from doing so.
 
Flaming Pie

Flaming Pie

Well-Known Member
ChesusRice said:
Absolutely reliable.
So please post a link from that website that says Ukraine is or was a Member of NATO.
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You can have treaties with Nato and be a cooperating partner without being a member.

Like I said, they are on the PATH to membership.

They are making the changes NATO has laid out for them.

Do you have a direct quote of him saying Ukraine is a member of NATO? Or is it just saying NATO should help protect a nation that is in full cooperation and seeking membership?
 
pnwmystery

pnwmystery

Well-Known Member
OddBall1st said:
So what`s wrong with setting up refugee camps in Syria, protecting them in Syria, feeding them in Syria and when the bad guys are dead and gone, they get set out back into Syria ?

Now, the way we are going, when the bad guys are gone, and the war is no more, you have nobody there to give it back to because they are all on SNAP in the US or in Germany or France a thousand miles away and the bad guy power grab starts all over again.

Refugees are supposed to be protected, taken care of, nursed, fed, and let free in the country that`s making them seek refuge.

Nobody`s refugee book says take them home, set them free, give them welfare, wait for more.
Click to expand...
The very definition of a refugee is someone who's been forced to flee their home (read: country) in order to escape war, persecution, disease, famine, or natural disaster.
 
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