SMH. little help please. overnute-undernute?

tikitoker

tikitoker

Active Member
Hey guys I am not one to ask for help usually but I sure could use it now. I have some auto's and they are at day 19 today. some are just fine and others are slightly mottled on the fans. Yesterday I looked in on them and saw some yellow tips on the top newest(youngest) fan leaves. Most don't have the yellow tips but all have the mottling to some degree. The soil is a mixture of coco/ffof and amendments + lime

Now I top dressed with powdered dolomite and I add cal/mg to my water. I have plenty of cal/mg I my soil and water and fertilizer. I am very confident they are not over-fertilized, so then it's a deficiency. Which one I can't figure out, butI am leaning to Potassium deficiency as excess calcium and magnesium can compete with K. However on the otherhand too much potassium will compete with magnesium and in return antagonize calcium since the to go hand -in- hand.

The plants are nice and healthy shade of green and some are side branching and others are very slender and tall, so I cant pinpoint a K deficiency base on branching as I have 5 different pheno's I am dealing with. the only thing I have to go on is the tips and the motteling of the older fans. Nowhere else on the plants are affected and all side shoots/branches show normal coloration without chlorosis of any kind. Peptols and stems/branches are perfect green, ZERO RED/PURPLE.

So please can someone help me out. I am almost inclined to believe the little ladies are hungry for bloom fertz. But I could be wrong, I would just like to get a general consensus on remedial action. (someone who's more familiar with autoflowers)
 
lilroach

lilroach

Well-Known Member
My first suggestion is.....when asking someone to look at your leaves, don't do it with the LED's on. Go with a flash or alternative lighting.

With that said, from what I can see your plants are fine.
 
qwizoking

qwizoking

Well-Known Member
Looks great...ph is high and the beginning of a mag def...sighlty too much n as well
Get the ph under control and I would foliar some tap water..
 
tikitoker

tikitoker

Active Member
lilroach said:
My first suggestion is.....when asking someone to look at your leaves, don't do it with the LED's on. Go with a flash or alternative lighting.

With that said, from what I can see your plants are fine.
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sorry about the pictures. I did have the flash on and took clear (what I thought was) pictures of the affected parts. But I can always put up pictures in white light. Thank you for responding.
 
tikitoker

tikitoker

Active Member
qwizoking said:
Looks great...ph is high and the beginning of a mag def...sighlty too much n as well
Get the ph under control and I would foliar some tap water..
Click to expand...
I just added 1 heaping tsp of powdered dolomite and watered it in with de-chlorinated tap the other day. pH was at 6.5 but he lime may have reacted quicker than expected. what you see now is the result of the lime?

If I have too much N, then the Mg is not being antagonize by lack of N. Its either pH, which then Im disapointed in my soil and the nutrients. Or it's excess K, and thats causing Mg symptoms.


Mabey I will root drench with Epsom @ 1tbsp/g -pH 6.0 using tap. Or Icn use my RODI and add cal/mag+ and Epsom. What you think?
 
JohnDee

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
TT,
You said you were sure that you hadn't overfed, yet repeatedly you're talking about antagonisms...that are the result of overfeeding. So if you think you have some sort of lockout due to antagonism...then you should flush and drop nutes a bit.

I agree with Quizoking that the pattern on the blotching seems to be interveinal and an indication of a Mg deficiency. Now whether that's an actual deficiency or a lockout...well that's the big question.

I remember reading somewhere very recently that mixing coco and soil is a bad idea. But for the life of me, I can't recall why and where I read that. If I find it, I'll post it to you. Far as anything auto specific...sorry man, I just can't help you there.
JD
 
tikitoker

tikitoker

Active Member
JD,
Thanks for checking in here and offering your years of advise. When I said I was looking for someone with auto experience, I was nicely tying to limit my responses. Any time YOU, quizoking or any other XPERIENCED cultivator want to chime I that's all good with me. I would actually prefer to converse with TRUE growers.

I have been leaning towards Mg deficiency from day1. I just want to know where the hell is it coming from... I limed and salted the soil, cooked it for 3 week and hydrated with AACT made from castings and cal/mag+ with some blackstrap. I water every 3-5 days and always add cal/mag+. I don't think lockout because salts would have to be high to lock anything out including K, that's why I added plenty of gypsum, gypsum will displace sodium with calcium. I did this to help prevent high salts so I can try to push these autos to the edge when in flower. But now I think about it..... It could be a Mg deficiency because of too much Gypsum(calcium). And the epsom salt I put in the soil to cook, is most likely being displaced ---------NOW THAT MAKES SENSE!!

So I did check on them before I hoped on here, and they have grown over night and look good for the most part. some have started to work out the terminal growth twisting and a couple small 1 gallon plants have started to develope flowers on the very top terminal on the tip of the meristem. Not a white display of hairs yet but you can tell thy are gonna go very soon. Yeah bud, if you can find any info on the coco mixing with soil, I would love to read them.
 
noham

noham

Active Member
I often see quick and drastic adjustments after such little symptoms, and I always wonder: "how could they do it so pro? or were they just lucky not ruining the plant?"
But then again, I don't grow in coco.
I had these symptoms on one of my plant, Mg def, nute burn on leaf tips, but I continued the regular feeding and switched to tap water.
It was developing fast, and if I gave it less nutes next time than what burned my plants a week before, it would not be sufficient this time.
 
tikitoker

tikitoker

Active Member
noham said:
I often see quick and drastic adjustments after such little symptoms, and I always wonder: "how could they do it so pro? or were they just lucky not ruining the plant?"
But then again, I don't grow in coco.
I had these symptoms on one of my plant, Mg def, nute burn on leaf tips, but I continued the regular feeding and switched to tap water.
It was developing fast, and if I gave it less nutes next time than what burned my plants a week before, it would not be sufficient this time.
Click to expand...
Sorry, I don't follow.
 
noham

noham

Active Member
tikitoker said:
Sorry, I don't follow.
Click to expand...
It happens, mate. No problem!











jks :D

What I was implying is, I see how easily make quick and rough adjustments in soil or coco composition, and I often wonder how can that turn out good.
...but I don't grow in coco and I heard it's pro is quickly adjustable, but as a soil grower I can not imagine doing anything good in the long run with turn-arounds in nutrient schedule.
 
tikitoker

tikitoker

Active Member
Most would call peat based mixes "soil" and anytime someone hears coco, they think "hydro or soil less). But in fact peat is soilless, it just has a different CEC (caution exchange capacity) than coco.
When growing in peat the CEC is high and the media tends to hold more of the nutrients and slowly release them to the plant. However coco on the other hand has a low CEC and that's why we would treat it like hydro in the retrospect of frequent feed cycles or irrigations due to the coco NOT holding nutrients to be slow released. This coupled with increased air and water retention makes harvest results and general growth in coco very similar to hydroponically achieved results.

So when I use coco with "soil" or peat, I treat the coco like soil in regards to the pH. Coco has a near perfect pH, and I find it stabilizes around 6.5 for me. That's perfect!!! Now all I have to do I increase the CEC, I do this by adding humic acids, amendments and humus. This encourages microbial life by providing the perfect porosity, moisture retention, 02 levels, food and now in return they will help raise the CEC. When I cut the coco with peat or "bag soil" like FFOF, I futher increase the microbial presence, population, organic food source and reproduction.

Feed organically so the "soil" is fed, and in return, feeds the plant. And as far as I know the only quick way to adjust coco is if you are using only coco, NO peat, and of course perlite is almost always used with coco. You can't overwater coco, hence the quick fixes. The plants are able to take heavy flush and not drown. And again remember the CEC being low-- nutrients are easily flushed out.
 
noham

noham

Active Member
tikitoker said:
Most would call peat based mixes "soil" and anytime someone hears coco, they think "hydro or soil less). But in fact peat is soilless, it just has a different CEC (caution exchange capacity) than coco.
When growing in peat the CEC is high and the media tends to hold more of the nutrients and slowly release them to the plant. However coco on the other hand has a low CEC and that's why we would treat it like hydro in the retrospect of frequent feed cycles or irrigations due to the coco NOT holding nutrients to be slow released. This coupled with increased air and water retention makes harvest results and general growth in coco very similar to hydroponically achieved results.

So when I use coco with "soil" or peat, I treat the coco like soil in regards to the pH. Coco has a near perfect pH, and I find it stabilizes around 6.5 for me. That's perfect!!! Now all I have to do I increase the CEC, I do this by adding humic acids, amendments and humus. This encourages microbial life by providing the perfect porosity, moisture retention, 02 levels, food and now in return they will help raise the CEC. When I cut the coco with peat or "bag soil" like FFOF, I futher increase the microbial presence, population, organic food source and reproduction.

Feed organically so the "soil" is fed, and in return, feeds the plant. And as far as I know the only quick way to adjust coco is if you are using only coco, NO peat, and of course perlite is almost always used with coco. You can't overwater coco, hence the quick fixes. The plants are able to take heavy flush and not drown. And again remember the CEC being low-- nutrients are easily flushed out.
Click to expand...
I will totally refer to this when I try coco.
Nice!
 
tikitoker

tikitoker

Active Member
Thanks noham. I love coco and all it's learning curves. Expect some grower error when using coco until you become familiar with it. Once you dial it in with your environment and plants nutritional needs, all I can say is ENJOY!


As to update this thread, I took a remedial course of action. I flushed my plants with Advanced Nutrients PH Perfect:
Connoisseur@ 1.25ml/L--Base--------comes out to a tad bit more than 1/4 strength
B-52 @ 1ml/L------------additive**** derived from calcium nitrate, magnesium nitrate and kelp-----recommended dosage for all additives at any given time is 2ml/L
Bud Candy@ 1ml/L------additive**** derived from magnesium nitrate. this should get the Mg deficiency solved quickly
Bud Ignitor @ 1ml/L-----additive**** derived from Monopotassium Phosphate, Potassium Sulphate, formulated from fractionated Kelp Extract

Dosed 30 gallons for flush @ 6.0-7.0/ 650ppm ** Note this is not a true reading of PPM due to the buffers and chelates.
Run-off tested at 1938ppm/ 3.515EC pH 6.59
 
JohnDee

JohnDee

Well-Known Member
So Tiki, the 1938ppm runoff tells the story. Never could find the link I was thinking of. But reading your posts, I did recall it had to do with the different ways in which soil and coco are treated. Different ph, different cec, different watering schedules and so on. Everything is a compromise rather then being able to dial the medium in like it should be.

Hope you get back on track soon,
JD
 
tikitoker

tikitoker

Active Member
JohnDee said:
So Tiki, the 1938ppm runoff tells the story. Never could find the link I was thinking of. But reading your posts, I did recall it had to do with the different ways in which soil and coco are treated. Different ph, different cec, different watering schedules and so on. Everything is a compromise rather then being able to dial the medium in like it should be.

Hope you get back on track soon,
JD
Click to expand...
Thanks JD, all in due time brother! Thanks for helping out man!!!
 
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