Single LED or Multiple smaller LEDS is better

H

Hammer_time

Member
Hello Everyone,
I have a question and hope to find some help from people with understanding better then me.
Please i ask in advance you be patient with me as i may not use the right terms as i am learning.

Have a 5 foot x 3 foot area for veg and grow.
have been using 400 hps and 600 hps for veg area and grow area. (i know should be using MH for veg, my bad from what i have learnt)
I want to use LED but from all the reading it has kinda made me ask the question. Want to save on power but also have the same results please

My confusion is...when reading on led they dont have good coverage. so people use multiple smaller lights.

1: People say be careful when manufacture say 300w led is to replace a 400w HPS, for example....now what is said is "A 300w LED only pulls eg 150w at the wall, so when they say that does that mean? does that mean that the 300w led really doesnt replace the 400 hps as it doesnt pull 400w from the wall (or in the case of the 300w led should be pulling 300w) Please i do understand after months of reading the leds are run down to extend there life, so my confusion starts with the comment of power draw from the wall matching light output.

2: LED have good par value and efficieny as the spectrum is more controlled..ok...now another confusion of mine, massive confusion...

lets say, please these are just number for the example.

300w led has 750 par at 18inch...cool, good for 2 x 2 area, draws 150kw at wall
600w led has 1000 par at 18 inch, good for 3 x 3 area, draws 300kw at wall
900w led has 1400 par at 18 inch, good for 4 x 4 area, , draws 450kw at wall ......ok now

the larger LEDS have a more intense light in a narrow area thus giving strong, full, dense canapy.

question is, it it better to use more little one vs a larger LED, i am confused because the smaller lights have a smaller par value vs the bigger lights, there for even if you have twice the amount smaller lights the par value in the area the LED is able to service is smaller. So why have 2 x 300w led if the max par is 750 in each, vs a 600w led that offers 1000 par. Wouldnt the 600W led give you more dense finish then the 300W led as the 600W led offer a stronger PAR. (in the restricted coverage area LED work in)

I know this may sound stupid or dumb, but if you run 2 x 300w led at 750 par each does that make it you have 1500 par in your grow tent?

Does multiplying the LEDS multiple your PAR in the room. If you had 2 plants 1 each under 300w led is that better then 2 plants under 600w led. Would the 600w led give you a better finish then the 2 x 300w leds?

3: If one needs to match the power draw from the wall for LEDS to match that of HPS lights to get the same result, why go to LEDS? So if one has 400w HPS in grow and 600 HPS in flower, so to replace HPS with leds does one need to get LEDS that have the wall power draw to get the same results? so now real saving in electricity anyway)

4: Or are COB kits really that way far ahead???

Thank you in advance for reading this and any help would be sincerely appreaicted.

Thank you.
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Good question, I went with multiple/smaller bars and loving it, never really considered the single larger fixtures. They cover off my whole room if needed, but sometimes I'm running smaller footprints or plants that are finishing at different times. I can spread them out as needed or shut off what I don't need and use just the bars I need at that time. I went with Tasty LED, they have different size bars with different outputs, there's other out there and a lot of DIY COB kits/options available. I have 3x T2-1400 original units that output 100w each, and recently picked up another 2x T2-1400 second generation that output 150w each. Total of 600w covering up to 3.5 x 8'.

If you go with higher end COBs like the Cree 3590's or Vero 29's 30w/sq. foot is more than enough for flowering so you'd be looking at 450-500w to cover your 3x5' footprint in flowering. many of these including the newer Tasty LED models have dimmers so if you're vegging in the same room you can dim them down for veg and still get good coverage.
 
justugh

justugh

Well-Known Member
Hammer_time said:
Hello Everyone,
I have a question and hope to find some help from people with understanding better then me.
Please i ask in advance you be patient with me as i may not use the right terms as i am learning.

Have a 5 foot x 3 foot area for veg and grow.
have been using 400 hps and 600 hps for veg area and grow area. (i know should be using MH for veg, my bad from what i have learnt)
I want to use LED but from all the reading it has kinda made me ask the question. Want to save on power but also have the same results please

My confusion is...when reading on led they dont have good coverage. so people use multiple smaller lights.

1: People say be careful when manufacture say 300w led is to replace a 400w HPS, for example....now what is said is "A 300w LED only pulls eg 150w at the wall, so when they say that does that mean? does that mean that the 300w led really doesnt replace the 400 hps as it doesnt pull 400w from the wall (or in the case of the 300w led should be pulling 300w) Please i do understand after months of reading the leds are run down to extend there life, so my confusion starts with the comment of power draw from the wall matching light output.

2: LED have good par value and efficieny as the spectrum is more controlled..ok...now another confusion of mine, massive confusion...

lets say, please these are just number for the example.

300w led has 750 par at 18inch...cool, good for 2 x 2 area, draws 150kw at wall
600w led has 1000 par at 18 inch, good for 3 x 3 area, draws 300kw at wall
900w led has 1400 par at 18 inch, good for 4 x 4 area, , draws 450kw at wall ......ok now

the larger LEDS have a more intense light in a narrow area thus giving strong, full, dense canapy.

question is, it it better to use more little one vs a larger LED, i am confused because the smaller lights have a smaller par value vs the bigger lights, there for even if you have twice the amount smaller lights the par value in the area the LED is able to service is smaller. So why have 2 x 300w led if the max par is 750 in each, vs a 600w led that offers 1000 par. Wouldnt the 600W led give you more dense finish then the 300W led as the 600W led offer a stronger PAR. (in the restricted coverage area LED work in)

I know this may sound stupid or dumb, but if you run 2 x 300w led at 750 par each does that make it you have 1500 par in your grow tent?

Does multiplying the LEDS multiple your PAR in the room. If you had 2 plants 1 each under 300w led is that better then 2 plants under 600w led. Would the 600w led give you a better finish then the 2 x 300w leds?

3: If one needs to match the power draw from the wall for LEDS to match that of HPS lights to get the same result, why go to LEDS? So if one has 400w HPS in grow and 600 HPS in flower, so to replace HPS with leds does one need to get LEDS that have the wall power draw to get the same results? so now real saving in electricity anyway)

4: Or are COB kits really that way far ahead???

Thank you in advance for reading this and any help would be sincerely appreaicted.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
damn new guy good leg work

u missed a important subject ......lens angle ....this is where the LED gets its depth
120.....gives u the best coverage worst depth
90.........the mid lvl
60........the best depth but worst coverage

1 no it does replace it .....they are just telling u the actual power drawl when it is fully power up (led is more effective power use then HID)

2 larger LED just cover more area .......so they have more didoes .....this results in allowing them to mix lens and lightwaves over a larger area .......2 lights are always better then one but it will not increase the PAR like u think it will slight yes but it will give u a more even par readings in the edges

get 2 flash lights and go to a dark room ......sit in a chair and turn the lights on point at the ground and move the lights closer to each other at the same lvl and farther apart from each other .....this will be the same with grow lights

see how they mess into a bigger center area but the over all brightness does not increase much .......doing this in a tent/reflective close in surface with the lights allow u to get a more even PAR

3 no u do not match those ......i personally like over kill so i always go bigger and do the 2 light trick u just played with

4 no cobs are here ........i rather have a light i can controll then a all in one but cobs are effective
 
H

Hammer_time

Member
I really thank you guys for replying, its really helping me out allot. Yes i have read about the lense angles and there effectiveness. Some pros on here have come straight out and explained it perfectly, but i thought i would ask for help first about the coverage/size of the lights and then sort out the angles, but considering the angle can also assist in the size light aswell......

1: Excellent, so dont look at the wall power draw for the performance of the light look at the PAR value (i learnt that PAR is the amount of light the plant can use thus why making LED's more efficient, as the spectrum is more controlled..correct?)
eg so a 400w HPS can be replaced with a 300w LED or 450W led, only downside with the LED's is you dont get the coverage of the HPS and depth penetration...correct, thus why you guys suggest to use smaller lights for example and spread them. (then we can have to consider lense angle like justugh suggested

So far, more smaller powered lights is better for even coverage.

2: Cool, yes they do cover more area being larger LEDS and also have a stronger (higher PAR) in the center of them.
So, wouldnt that give a better end result (being dense, strong, full heads?) or the rule of 30w per square foot per plant is perfect to work to?

3: I am the same, i would rather have some power in my pocket for reserve....i like to over kill also but within reason.

4: I have sen the cob kits and has made me bang my head agiant a wall for days, thats why i am on here.

I have been told i have ADD and bi-Polar, i dont think so, i just like to know more about what im doing and do it right and also learn something along the way. I think that cool, and learning and sharing is what makes us better.

I dont want to be a dick and go out and spend $500, $600 on lights only to now that for and extra $100 bucks or so you could of got a much better light.

I have been looking at meizhi and also vipaspectra lights, and have been considering a combination, only because there cheaper in price. I was considering 2 or 3 or even 4 of them. I have read on the COB light kits and that has thrown even more confusion. They seem so good and everyone that uses them can not fault or say anything bad about them.

Basically guys, im stuck, thats why i was considering the cheaper leds vs the cobs. I was looking at the cutter kits. (im i aloud to say that. Im not being rude, or advertising anyone, i just wanted to point you to what i have been looking at.) http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=MAU5+KITS.
These are the MAU5 kits.

Then i read that you can use a slightly cheaper COB to get yourself into the COB system. (start using cobs basically)
and you can use the VERO or CITIZEN cobs vs the top of the line CREE 3590's.

I would like to use a 6 or 9 light cree kit but the kit is not cheap and i figuered i could get 4 x 450w or 2 x 600w leds from meizhi or vipaspectra for that price. ( but then the argument will start with them not being as efficient perhaps).

So can you see where my head goes bang up against a wall guys.

If i want a bigger COB kit thats more affordable are the VERO and CITIZEN Cobs good to consider???

confused hard man :/
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Hammer_time said:
If i want a bigger COB kit thats more affordable are the VERO and CITIZEN Cobs good to consider???
Click to expand...
Lots of very nice grows with the V29 COBs, although I can only recommend the 3590's from experience with them (I've used older blurple/diode based LED's, Cree 3070, Philips CMH, and 3590's, the 3590's have produced the most and best quality). Citizen is relatively new to the game and haven't seen a lot of real life grows with those yet.
 
justugh

justugh

Well-Known Member
Hammer_time said:
I really thank you guys for replying, its really helping me out allot. Yes i have read about the lense angles and there effectiveness. Some pros on here have come straight out and explained it perfectly, but i thought i would ask for help first about the coverage/size of the lights and then sort out the angles, but considering the angle can also assist in the size light aswell......

1: Excellent, so dont look at the wall power draw for the performance of the light look at the PAR value (i learnt that PAR is the amount of light the plant can use thus why making LED's more efficient, as the spectrum is more controlled..correct?)
eg so a 400w HPS can be replaced with a 300w LED or 450W led, only downside with the LED's is you dont get the coverage of the HPS and depth penetration...correct, thus why you guys suggest to use smaller lights for example and spread them. (then we can have to consider lense angle like justugh suggested

So far, more smaller powered lights is better for even coverage.

2: Cool, yes they do cover more area being larger LEDS and also have a stronger (higher PAR) in the center of them.
So, wouldnt that give a better end result (being dense, strong, full heads?) or the rule of 30w per square foot per plant is perfect to work to?

3: I am the same, i would rather have some power in my pocket for reserve....i like to over kill also but within reason.

4: I have sen the cob kits and has made me bang my head agiant a wall for days, thats why i am on here.

I have been told i have ADD and bi-Polar, i dont think so, i just like to know more about what im doing and do it right and also learn something along the way. I think that cool, and learning and sharing is what makes us better.

I dont want to be a dick and go out and spend $500, $600 on lights only to now that for and extra $100 bucks or so you could of got a much better light.

I have been looking at meizhi and also vipaspectra lights, and have been considering a combination, only because there cheaper in price. I was considering 2 or 3 or even 4 of them. I have read on the COB light kits and that has thrown even more confusion. They seem so good and everyone that uses them can not fault or say anything bad about them.

Basically guys, im stuck, thats why i was considering the cheaper leds vs the cobs. I was looking at the cutter kits. (im i aloud to say that. Im not being rude, or advertising anyone, i just wanted to point you to what i have been looking at.) http://www.cutter.com.au/products.php?cat=MAU5+KITS.
These are the MAU5 kits.

Then i read that you can use a slightly cheaper COB to get yourself into the COB system. (start using cobs basically)
and you can use the VERO or CITIZEN cobs vs the top of the line CREE 3590's.

I would like to use a 6 or 9 light cree kit but the kit is not cheap and i figuered i could get 4 x 450w or 2 x 600w leds from meizhi or vipaspectra for that price. ( but then the argument will start with them not being as efficient perhaps).

So can you see where my head goes bang up against a wall guys.

If i want a bigger COB kit thats more affordable are the VERO and CITIZEN Cobs good to consider???

confused hard man :/
Click to expand...
sorry man that is deeper then i have gone
i like LED matrrix S lights ......i can control the light waves and time using just the light ( does grow bloom and UV )
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
I went into the deep end with LED; I replicated my HID setup watt for watt, same trellis and all. That meant 5400W = 5 860W CDM Allstart lamps with ballasts became 24 x 225W COB LED modules, both shining on the same 144 sq ft of vertical trellis space. COB LED gives more yield and better quality, hands down. I'm fixing to reduce the light by 25% to see what effect that has. Early indications are that the answer is 'not much'.

If you go DIY, I'd look hard at citizen chips, their performance rivals CXB3590 for much less money.

If you want to buy COB LED panels, you could do a lot worse than Johnson Grow Lights.

These chips are strong enough to give good depth and they can use lenses- which IMO are mandatory for performance and protection. Yet you buy several chips per fixture which spreads the footprint out and improves light distribution immensely. I run 80 degree lenses and I'm happy enough with them to recommend their use to anyone building COB LED fixtures for horticulture.

Your 3x5 space needs about 450W of COB LED driven at 50W-55W each, or 8 chips.

Two of my modules would be perfect; each is; one Meanwell HLG 185H-C700B driver running four CXB3590 72V chips. I'd suggest 3000K or 3500K spectrum for blooming.
 
H

Hammer_time

Member
dam awesome forum guys...and thank you for accepting my lack of knowledge and helping me. I did continue to read and educate myself last night through some of the threads on here about the COB lights. You guys are hands down correct, everyone that has used them can not fault them....I have even read some people that use high end bpurple lights (not the cheaper LEDS panels i was considering) and replaced them COBs and wish they had done that from the start.

I did call Cutters to speak to them regarding the CREE 3590's. They are pricey, but must be for a reason....BUT..funny hey...above GroErr mention the Vero 29's and ttystikk mentions the citizens. when i spoke to Cutter, they are bringing in the Vero 29's and did mention they would be reasonably priced compared to the Cree3590's. (Sorry i am not electrical minded so all is learning).

ttystikk, i can imagine what your setup looks like with that much power running dude, that is massive 5400w. Bro you could light up suburb with that...Damm awesome dude.....you also help me as well explaining how many COB i would of needed, as that was my next question. I couldnt work out how many i would of needed.

I have a grow area that is 5x3 and a bloom area that is 5x3....sorry to sound silly...is a driver reffered to as the COB light itself (with the heat sink on it etc etc) so when you mention 8 chips is that 8 COBS (sorry to sound silly) and the big block the meanwell that is the driver correct, that the light plug into? So you recommend a 8 light setup, 2 rows of 4 at 50 - 55w each light at the 3000-3500k with 80 degree reflectors to reduce the spread and aid in the penetration. (would mixing the 3000k and 3500k lights be an idea for blooming). i would also need 2 of the Meanwell HLG 185H-C700B?

ttystikk, would i be rude if i may ask to see your light setup, that sounds perfect for me......i wrote down the specifications you mentioned above....thanks heaps bro for doing that bro.

GroErr also mentions the Vero 29's. are they in the same price range as the Citizens? and i did read something about the Citizens being better in some way at the higher wattage power? (maybe i misunderstood the comment)

Sorry, may i also as which Citizen COBS you are referring to please.
 
Last edited:
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Personally don't know enough about the Citizen as they're relatively new and hadn't looked into them. Seem to be a couple of models out there. Unless someone comes along here your best bet would be to post some questions on some of the forums in the LED section as the COB heads will hang out there and very helpful ;) Noticed COBKits carries them now , believe they also carry Cree and Vero's and seem very helpful. Here's one thread but if you search Citizen in the LED section there's probably a tin of info in there. COBKits and a few others sell them pretty well ready to assemble and provide all the parts like holders etc.
https://www.rollitup.org/t/introducing-cobkits-com-specializing-in-diy-and-citizen-cobs.916763/

I barely get enough time to garden so I just bought mine pre-built but lots of suppliers for these DIY kits now and they look easy enough to assemble.
 
H

Hammer_time

Member
Thank you for the link....there is so much going on there on that chat. I just emailed Cobkits, and hope to hear from them. they seem really nice on the link you suggested. Really like how they ask what people want to see. Allot of learning on that link to do. Some very knowledgeable people on there. I just cant get my head around the power numbers and how you decide on a 72V etc etc.

Are you really happy with your 3590's, where you a HPS user prior to switching to COB leds?
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Hammer_time said:
Thank you for the link....there is so much going on there on that chat. I just emailed Cobkits, and hope to hear from them. they seem really nice on the link you suggested. Really like how they ask what people want to see. Allot of learning on that link to do. Some very knowledgeable people on there. I just cant get my head around the power numbers and how you decide on a 72V etc etc.

Are you really happy with your 3590's, where you a HPS user prior to switching to COB leds?
Click to expand...
I started with HPS, then went to 860W CDM Allstart lamps for better spectrum and then to COB LED. Each was a big step up in performance and quality.
 
GroErr

GroErr

Well-Known Member
Hammer_time said:
Thank you for the link....there is so much going on there on that chat. I just emailed Cobkits, and hope to hear from them. they seem really nice on the link you suggested. Really like how they ask what people want to see. Allot of learning on that link to do. Some very knowledgeable people on there. I just cant get my head around the power numbers and how you decide on a 72V etc etc.

Are you really happy with your 3590's, where you a HPS user prior to switching to COB leds?
Click to expand...
I recently switched to 3590's from 315w/CMH which is an awesome tech in itself, much better quality and production per watt than hps. Still have those lights but will be running COBs most of the time unless I need some extra heat like mid-winter. The main driver for me is quality and the COBs produce well + have produced the best quality for me.
 
H

Hammer_time

Member
Thank yo kindly guys for your honest truth opinions. I started weighting up the cost of cheap leds and COBS. I think, honestly, to save that little extra for something so much better, makes more sense. Even in the thread link given about, people are really moving that way especially as the prices are becoming more competitive. I hope cobkits can be of assistance to me and help out. I have messaged him and just awaiting to hear from him regarding some options that would fit my setup and budget. When yo start to do the math. Its only couple of hundred dollars difference and the overall outcome as mentioned above it more then worth it.

ttystickk, that vertical setup is great. Read some of the low ball comments, but honestly, its people like you that set an example where you try new ways and try to perfect them/improve them or on them. lol if people asked questions rather then low ball they would learn something.

I learnt so much just being on here and reading. Great community guys.

Really hoping cobkits can assist, looking forward to what he comes back with.
 
H

Hammer_time

Member
this is where i am having major difficulties understaning..36V chips vs 72V chips, really trying to get my head around it.
Trying to read on the differences, pro's and cons of the two.
 
freemanjack

freemanjack

Well-Known Member
Hammer_time said:
Hello Everyone,
I have a question and hope to find some help from people with understanding better then me.
Please i ask in advance you be patient with me as i may not use the right terms as i am learning.

Have a 5 foot x 3 foot area for veg and grow.
have been using 400 hps and 600 hps for veg area and grow area. (i know should be using MH for veg, my bad from what i have learnt)
I want to use LED but from all the reading it has kinda made me ask the question. Want to save on power but also have the same results please

My confusion is...when reading on led they dont have good coverage. so people use multiple smaller lights.

1: People say be careful when manufacture say 300w led is to replace a 400w HPS, for example....now what is said is "A 300w LED only pulls eg 150w at the wall, so when they say that does that mean? does that mean that the 300w led really doesnt replace the 400 hps as it doesnt pull 400w from the wall (or in the case of the 300w led should be pulling 300w) Please i do understand after months of reading the leds are run down to extend there life, so my confusion starts with the comment of power draw from the wall matching light output.

2: LED have good par value and efficieny as the spectrum is more controlled..ok...now another confusion of mine, massive confusion...

lets say, please these are just number for the example.

300w led has 750 par at 18inch...cool, good for 2 x 2 area, draws 150kw at wall
600w led has 1000 par at 18 inch, good for 3 x 3 area, draws 300kw at wall
900w led has 1400 par at 18 inch, good for 4 x 4 area, , draws 450kw at wall ......ok now

the larger LEDS have a more intense light in a narrow area thus giving strong, full, dense canapy.

question is, it it better to use more little one vs a larger LED, i am confused because the smaller lights have a smaller par value vs the bigger lights, there for even if you have twice the amount smaller lights the par value in the area the LED is able to service is smaller. So why have 2 x 300w led if the max par is 750 in each, vs a 600w led that offers 1000 par. Wouldnt the 600W led give you more dense finish then the 300W led as the 600W led offer a stronger PAR. (in the restricted coverage area LED work in)

I know this may sound stupid or dumb, but if you run 2 x 300w led at 750 par each does that make it you have 1500 par in your grow tent?

Does multiplying the LEDS multiple your PAR in the room. If you had 2 plants 1 each under 300w led is that better then 2 plants under 600w led. Would the 600w led give you a better finish then the 2 x 300w leds?

3: If one needs to match the power draw from the wall for LEDS to match that of HPS lights to get the same result, why go to LEDS? So if one has 400w HPS in grow and 600 HPS in flower, so to replace HPS with leds does one need to get LEDS that have the wall power draw to get the same results? so now real saving in electricity anyway)

4: Or are COB kits really that way far ahead???

Thank you in advance for reading this and any help would be sincerely appreaicted.

Thank you.
Click to expand...
Our experience here suggests that unless you are using some super high spec hps, then leds are conservatively 3 X the watt/ light efficacy regardless of PAR, micromol, etc etc, we had a bigger better crop from 160w of led that 650w of hps in a full side by side test, same genetics, same dirt, same water cycles.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
Hammer_time said:
this is where i am having major difficulties understaning..36V chips vs 72V chips, really trying to get my head around it.
Trying to read on the differences, pro's and cons of the two.
Click to expand...
They are functionally identical. The choice of voltage just makes it easier to match drivers.
 
ttystikk

ttystikk

Well-Known Member
freemanjack said:
Our experience here suggests that unless you are using some super high spec hps, then leds are conservatively 3 X the watt/ light efficacy regardless of PAR, micromol, etc etc, we had a bigger better crop from 160w of led that 650w of hps in a full side by side test, same genetics, same dirt, same water cycles.
Click to expand...
I'd say it's closer to twice.
 
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