Senior Citizen Novice Advice For Getting Started!

Magnificient

Well-Known Member
Hello everyone! Before I start let me first thank everyone for the awesome sometimes overwhelming amount of information that is available in this forum! :cool:

I am about to begin setting up using a variety of techniques and ideas I have learned by studying for the last 6 months or so and I am very excited to get started, but I have some questions before I do. It is likely that I have already read the answers to some of these questions but as I said, sometimes there is too much info for me to retain and recall effectively so excuse me if the questions seem elementary.

Here is the basic plan and would love any comments or recommendations.

Going to try a SCROG in a home designed “aero” type system using the usual name brand grey tubs. (My design will be a rather unique system I think but I am still in the R&D stage so I will post the design and pics once I get it all ironed out.)

Lighting will be all HPS with wattage as of yet undetermined but leaning towards 600’s.

So the first questions are:
given the 600w lights, how many plants per tub?
* - I am thinking 4 per tub.

and how big should I make the screens?
* - I am thinking either the same size as the light footprint at the optimal height OR maybe half the light footprint and putting two screens under each light.
I think I would go with a 400 watt cmh outfit. The trouble about 600 watts is that cmh bulbs are not made for them. Cmh bulbs are the closest thing there is to natural sunlight. On the downside, the newer digital ballasts, for the most part, will not work. You'd need one of the magnetic ballasts.
 

Mojoman69

Member
Welcome Jozi! Ok, ok I know pics are needed and they are on the way. First a quick update....

The "PK" that had the bugs and I nearly killed by dosing the roots with toxic crap have made a spectacular comeback as far as root growth goes. Almost no vege growth but roots to the max! Then one morning while inspecting them I see dozens of bugs again! These bastards are ignoring the sick roots and going after the new healthy ones! Ok that does it for them! I pulled them all out of the system and gave them an overnight soak in Azamax then pulled them out of their pots and planted them in soil. The idea from the local "cultivation specialist" is that those kushes just dont like the wet environment that misting is providing and that a drier more arid medium might suit them better. Not sure I buy it seein as how the Master Kushes are kicking ass but nonetheless thay are now in dirt!

Everyone else is doing great and the "Green Crack" clones are big enough to be pulled from the bubbler nursery to the root tub that the "PK"s have vacated. Also I got my other pump so now whenever I am ready to send tubs to flower I can set up a seperate nute misting system.

Floor Plan
Floor-layout.jpg

More pics coming!
 

Magnificient

Well-Known Member
Where did you get your hardware? I've been to a dozen different stores trying to get parts to get a bubbleponic system going. It seems that no one store has everything a person will need. My outfit will have parts from a hydroponic shop, home depot, lowes, a dollar store, three online shops, a thrift store, and a few hardware stores. It's been depressing trying to get everything to fit. I'm especially interested in the mist heads. The best I found was 360 degree sprayers. I think I have everything here or coming here now, but those mist heads are interesting.
 

Mojoman69

Member
Hello Mag and welcome! Unless you buy a complete system already put together I doubt there is a single place to buy everything. Like most DIY projects for this stuff you're gonna get very familiar with the hardware and plumbing isle of your local stores. I usually take with me the various pieces i need to make sure it fits the stuff I need.

I tried those sprinkler or irrigation heads from the various garden departments but I didn't like the result. The droplets were too big for what i wanted being more like a sprinkler than mist or fog. All the stuff I am using is used for mist cooling systems.

You can find a lot of the stuff you would need here:
http://www.mrdrip.com/arizonamistaccessories.htm
 

BoomerBloomer57

Well-Known Member
Yo Mojo!

Looking good.

Been kind of busy and have not stopped in lately.

You be nailing it man.

Us? We've been fishing in our rez's and letting the work pile up.

check it out.
and bring yer fishing pole!
and sunscreen,,,,,,

bb57
 

Attachments

Dinosaur Bone

Active Member
Looks like Grandpa Mojo has things under control. Looks good.

Young whipper-snappers should be aware that grandpa has probably been growing tomato's & roses etc. longer than some of you have been alive.... Only difference now is some of those "tomato plants" have plastic tomato's hangin from them..

Honest tip for strange to get hardware and whatnot... the hardware store for people of the Inventor and R&D persuasion http://www.smallparts.com/
 

Mojoman69

Member
Welcome DB and thanks everyone for all the kind words and encouragement! I think I have grow space envy BB57! I really love your setup! Ok I'll bite...

so fish in the res. hmmm a clever photoshop trick? ummm a canary in the coal mine thing? ummmm maybe they are infusing the solution with nitrogen, ala fish poop? what gives?

Learning that screen training a stocky MasterKush isn't so easy1 these things are like the incredible hulks of plants! To start with their base stems are fatter than my thumb and even the new little stem shoots are so thick they dont want to bend without breaking and the plants are so strong they are pushing up the screen. Ok so granted I havent "attached" the screen to the tub lid yet but these things are strong. I tried placing a piece of pane glass over them for two night just to see what would happen. Actually I couldnt tell what was happening. They seemed dormant with the glass over them but then when I took the glas of they all sprung up like freeking jackintheboxes! It was wild looking and then while the glass was off they seemed to practically grow an inch in an hour. It was as if they were all compressed and were stretching out once they had the room. OK, so the glass was another bad idea! I guess its time to add some weight to the screen or go ahead and attach it which I really dont want to do until the last possible time.

I might be having another problem but not sure yet. I am growing suspect about the temperatures inside the root tubs. When I open them up to inspect the roots it sometimes feels like opening the door on the amazon jungle. It is quite warm and 99% humidity. Now I assume that if the nute solution is around 70 or so thats prolly good but here is what i wonder. Obviously during the 30 minutes the misters are off there is no cooling effect from the solution and since the particles are soo small I assume they will take on the temperature of the air almost instantly. For certain the .5 inch of solution that is never fully drained from the tub will rise to room ambient during that 30 minutes.

So why do I thinnk this might be a problem? I am starting so see some browning of some not all of the roots. Some roots look great at the base and at the ends but brown and kind of spongy in the middle. Im concerned this browning and spongyness is likely a root rot trying to set in.

Solutions?:
Cant really lower the inner temp of the root tubs without some kind of chiller mats or something else that seems convoluted to me at this point. Dont think lowering the nute temp will solve it either for reasons already mentioned.

Using Cannazyme and the directions say implicitly NO H2O2! My reading suggests that a good h202 regimine has tons of benefits. So anyone got an idea or suggestion as to whether or not I should discontinue the "zyme" and try a h2o2 treatment or if I should just ignore the issue and stick to the directions for now since the plants seem to be ok?
 

tboner1

Member
What kind of sexist remark is that? "think of all those women reading dumb crap, not LEARNING"? Don't be an exculsionary ass.
 

Mojoman69

Member
Apologies lady or sir whatever you are and welcome to the thread. I personally didn't post it and you may have noticed nobody else commented on it. Sometimes it is best to just keep moving forward in the spirit of cooperation and sharing and just ignore that which you feel needs ignoring. It tends not to escalate things on these dame forums. So again welcome and let's try to keep it positive and about growing or related issues, not personal hot buttons. Just a request from an old man that as read waaaaay too much flaming crap on these forums.

Update: Had a very minor attack of spider mites but dealt with them pronto quick and definately have the upper hand on tem. Aslo had a slight revisit of the root aphids but this time on the Green Crack roots. The infestatin was minor but I took no chances and dissassembled the entire system treated all tubs all plants all surrounding everything! Then I gave a god solid treatment Azamax as the aero mist as well as a foliar dosing. Drainged everythingn rinsed w fresh water at 6.0 then a good long dose of 6.0ph Rhizo. Drained the rez again and added a fresh batch of nutes.

Everyone looks great! All 8 mixbag seedlings were moved from the bubbler due to what was looking like a bit of root rot to soil pots and they have recoverd like gangbusters! I am likely to put them in 12/12 in a few more days for sexing. Yay!

Momma trainwreck has given up her first cuttings and they are doing nicely in a tiny 8 position earo cloner.

The screen training for the masterkush is slow going but is moving along quite well. Those things are so strong and even the newest growth is so stout it is hard to train with out some loss but it seems ot open up other parts of the screen for other branches so I think it is all going well for a first try.

More soon and I guess it is nearly time for another round of pics to show the progress.
 

Mojoman69

Member
After surviving the aphids and then the mites I was starting to feel pretty good about the way the system was working. Then as I least expect it, Root Rot! Every single plant in the system is now infected with this rot. From what I read, apparently it is still at a fairly low stage of ugly. There is not hardly any "slime" anywhere but it is starting to show itself in very small amounts, and I am starting to see a live stray gnat or two, but their dead bodies are showing up in the rez drain of from the tubs so I know they are in there. I have been forced to do extensive root healthcare ever since the first tub because of the aphids so several applications of Rhizo and freshwater douching and Azamax and on and on. I couldnt figure out why I was getting such explosive root production but then they would turn a bit brown and their tiny little root hairs dissappear they get a bit spongy and then they just seem to go all soft and start falling off. You could see from the pics above the roots were 4 feet long and pretty massive but they die off at an amazing rate! The new growth can barely keep up with the die off.

Then it finally hit me! Although the nute solution is plenty cool temps the pump cycles on for about 30 minutes and then off for about 30 minutes. This was done purely because the timer i got would only allow 20 memory settings for off and on. I thought 30 wet and 30 dry would be ok since there is an abundance of moisture on the roots and the atmosphere inside the tub was staying wet. Then the other day I wanted to look at the root progress in one of the tubs and at the moment of opening the tub I felt this whiff of WARM air and humidity hit my face like opening a window directly in the Amazon jungle. Hmmmm I thought, this could be bad! I immediately took the outdoor sensor of my temp gauge and placed it inside the tub at root level and turned everything back on. Sure as crap, when the misters are on the temps in the tub are around 72 which is what I expected since the rez is about that same temp. But as the misters went off in a matter of minutes the temps inside the tub started to rise and fairly fast. Within 5 or 10 minutes the tub temps were sitting at or near 85 degrees, which means they sit in that 90% humidity at 85 or maybe even sometimes higher for 30 minutes 12 times each day. I'm thinkin I have found the problem! Trouble is at the moment I don't have a solution to it.

I can't at the moment figure out how to inject cool air into the tubs during the mist off part of the cycle without some really convoluted rig. Not that this might not be implemented in my next design revision but for now it isn't practical. I'm already reflecting as much light away from the tubs as possible but they are so close to the lights that they still heat up just from the radiant energy they are absorbing.

My first thought for a simple solution is to reprogram the timer so it will go 50 to 55 on and 5 to 10 off. In theory I suppose the misters could stay on continuously however previously the pump would heat up and shut itself off until it cools down anyway hence the on and off cycle. Now having said that I do now have two pumps. The original one is the one that overheats and is the one that is presently running all the tubs. Since then I got another one from a different vendor and it seems to be a better choice. Not only is it quieter but it is also in a nice housing and it does not appear to overheat. I can say this because it is currently powering the little aerocloner and it runs 24/7 without a problem.

The more longterm answer might be to swap the pumps but the intake and outflow openings on the pumps are in totally different locations and orientations which would require some fairly serious reworking of the plumbing. For now I am going to try changing the timer settings and see what happens at least while I analyze the work required to swap the pumps.

Ok now for the update! All 8 of the mix bag seedlings are doing great and have been switched to 12/12 to get ready for sexing.
The Green Crack unfortunately seemed to be suffering the most from the root rot so they gave up some of their small lower branches to the cloner and then had a full day of root health therapy prior to being transferred to soil. Today is the third day in soil and they are already looking much better. Leaves are lifting up now and are turning darker green and less yellow so I am upgrading their condition from critical to stable but guarded.

The Pure Kush that had been nearly killed by aphids and is now in soil have recovered very well. They are very nice color now and are starting to go through a very fast growth stage. The new branches are shooting out and covering about half the distance to the next opening in the screen every day. If they continue at this rate they should fill their screen in another two or three weeks if there is no other issues.

The Master Kushes are the freakiest things! They are fighting off the root rot themselves by producing roots as fast as they die off but this is slowing the growth of the vegetation. Having said that they are growing but very slowly and they seem to be growing on a high gravity planet! Even the newest growth is the thickness of my index finger and is very stiff. The lack of flexibility is making it almost impossible to train to the screen! If I try to hard to push the shoot under the next rung of the screen it snaps off. I'm not certain these guys want to be screened! I took the screen off and allowed them to grow freely without it and every new growth site turned straight up and the entire plant pushed up almost three inches in one night! I am starting to think I would benefit from allowing them to go the rest of the way without a screen, or at least let them stretch out a little and then attempt to reset the screen but a little higher up. Either way these guys have vegged for about 5 weeks now and seem to be begging for 12/12.

The BlueCross is stable but also growing slow now due to the same root rot problem. The tops look healthy and good color even after the mite attack which seems to be irradicated at least for now and I am keeping them at bay with regular maintenance. For now I'm leaving them as is and wait to see how the new pump cycle affects them.

Redwood Kushes are slow as well but also seem to be fighting off the rot by just growing more roots. They have great color on top and are just now starting to get lots of new growth and branching. I have started early training them for their screen by spreading their branches and tying them down. These will also be left as is for now in hope the new timer cycles will mitigate the root rot problem.

Finally my pride and joy is the single trainwreck! The one plant that was so sick when I adopted it I thought it would not survive it's first week is kicking butt! She gave up 6 clones a week ago and is so prolific she is ready again to give up 8 to 12 more with ease! She is also growing on a screen and the screen is completely filled and is overflowing at the sides with dozens of 3 inch high shoots blasting through every screen opening. The plan for her is to make sure the clones in the cloner are well rooted, take another dozen clones, give her a week to recover and then she is going 12/12.

I think thats it for now. Will post again in a few days when I see if the new timer cycle helps the tub temps and the root rot.
 

Someguy15

Well-Known Member
Why not grab one of those fixed cycle timers like http://www.amazon.com/Apollo-3-Fixed-Cycle-Timer/dp/B002R1RTC2 a little pricey, but seems like it would be perfect for your application. 85 is def unacceptable for roots... the earth ground surface barely breaks 70 and 5 ft down your looking at around a steady 58F year round.

And for the snapping stems... mash them a little by squeezing a various angles with your fingers where u want it to bend. This should soften the tissue enough for you to train them where u want them. This is part of the super cropping technique.
 

Mojoman69

Member
Thanks SG15. I have read some about the pinching or "super cropping" but I wasn't really sure of the purpose other than to slow the growth of that shoot allowing the others to catch up. I will definately be giving it a try.

Have to work today but wanted to make a quick announcement.

It's a girl! YaY!

After only 3 days of 12/12 one of the seedlings showed her first white hairs last night. Interestingly and happily she is the one that was showing all the purple coloration on the underside of her leaves and also on the tiny little "hair like things" (sorry I dont know the proper anatomical name) that form right at the internodes. She is by far the tallest of the lot, is very skiny and very tall w almost no branching and she seems to love light! I'm guessing some sativa dominant hybrid but no way to be certain of her genetics. She turns and bends toward the nearest light source very fast and without regard for how hot the light is, she reaches for it. Gonna have to monitor her carefully but for now she got a new pot a good vege feed and back under the long light cycle to get her to go back to vegging.
 

Someguy15

Well-Known Member
Pinching is a form of fim/topping you just use your finger nails as opposed to scisors to do it. Super cropping allows you to lay branches over flat sideways then they will turn up towards the light. I like to use it to even out my canopy in week 1 of flower. All of the extra tall tops are squeezed/mashed a few inches below the canopy and dropped just under canopy level. After a few hours in the light they will upright themselves, but if done properly they should be about 4-5 inches shorter. I've also noted a interesting hormonal effect. The branches which are supercropped and are in good light seem to absolutly explode with bud. More smaller buds, but overall the weight seems huge on those branches. Just my observations man, congrats on the ladies!

IMG_1559.jpg
(Supercropping Example, notice how it up rights itself.)
 

Mojoman69

Member
Thanks for the info and the pic SG15. Very helpful! A serious update is coming along with a few pics to show progress but in the meantime I felt compelled to make a quick post.

ALL GIRLS! Are you kidding me? All 8 of the mixed and unknown genetics that were germinated from seeds have all shown hairs and are officially announced as females! They have all been moved to 1/2 gallon pots in soil for some serious vegging and then they will all give up clones. I think 2 or maybe 4 are of the same parents but the other 4 are all so very different looking from each other they are surely all different genes. Should be interesting to see what they can eventualy produce.

Also, the temporary fix for the tub temperatures was found by my wife who suggested we freeze water in containers and sit them in the nute rez and in the tubs. We also put the misters back on continuous spray but they still do shut off periodically for a few minutes just until the pump cools down again. I may build a sleek tubular housing for the pump that can be force fan cooled but for now all is good!

Full update and pics coming soon!
 

Mojoman69

Member
The root rot became such a problem that the entire system had to be shut down. The problem was the temperatures inside the tubs and this sould not be mitigated in a practical way. All plants that could be saved were transplanted to soil and te grow is continuing now as a soil grow.

The single Trainwreck mother has given over 100 clones and is huge! She is about 3 ft across at her canopy and has gone to 12/12 for about 1 week with no flowers appearing yet. Everything else is nearing the end of their vegetation stage and getting ready to go to flower.

I guess I should either close this thread which I can't see how to do or just let it die and consider restarting another one under soil grows.

Peace to all and thanks for all the helpful info!
 

Someguy15

Well-Known Member
The root rot became such a problem that the entire system had to be shut down. The problem was the temperatures inside the tubs and this sould not be mitigated in a practical way. All plants that could be saved were transplanted to soil and te grow is continuing now as a soil grow.

The single Trainwreck mother has given over 100 clones and is huge! She is about 3 ft across at her canopy and has gone to 12/12 for about 1 week with no flowers appearing yet. Everything else is nearing the end of their vegetation stage and getting ready to go to flower.

I guess I should either close this thread which I can't see how to do or just let it die and consider restarting another one under soil grows.

Peace to all and thanks for all the helpful info!
sorry to hear about the troubles, post up a link to the new thread on here for your followers.
 
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