Seed Phenotype?

Okay, so I'm doin a line breeding of skunk #1 x skunk #1

I just harvested my IBL1 group B but here's the interesting part....

I have 2 branches pollinated in this female plant, each branch is from a different male. Anyway, 1st branch seeds...is like 2 groups of different seeds almost 50/50






I'm looking at like different seeds almost split in the middle

2nd branch....same scenario....almost 50/50...same group of seeds




I don't think it has something to do with calyx maturity, since I've pulled out a black seed from a very mature calyx and same with the spotted one.

I've never experienced this before, usually the seeds are uniformed in color and size, specially on this line breeding, it's the same strain.

The original skunk #1 seeds btw are black and it cant be from hermie either since the unpollinated colas remained seedless.

Any idea?

Anybody?

Nobody have seen this happened before?

Cmon pollen chuckers and breeders.....any experience, opinion....appreciated

Could be the protective film from the calyxs, do the dark seeds feel smoother? Does it have a film over the seed coat that can be scratched off?

SPLFreak808 said:

Could be the protective film from the calyxs, do the dark seeds feel smoother? Does it have a film over the seed coat that can be scratched off?

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At first that's what I thought too. I did try to scratch a black seed and it just damaged the seed. It is, how it looked. Some of those black seeds, literally fell off the calyx, as mature as it can be. Same with the spotted ones. Like they take turn in seeding the calyxes, from the young calyx to the mature ones.

I think we got the first case of Epistasis in cannabis seeds

"Any time two different genes contribute to a single phenotype and their effects are not merely additive, those genes are said to be epistatic"

Good read about epistasis

https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/epistasis-gene-interaction-and-phenotype-effects-460

We might have a new skunk here or entirely different strain in the making

I'll find out soon enough. I'm still waiting for the other female to fully mature her seeds and see if she gonna produce some white seeds too. I picked one so far and its black.

Just an update

With my other skunk female, all her seeds are black or dark brown. So definitely there's something going on with this other female to throw pale tan seeds.

I've also come to conclusion that this phenomenon is called Seed Heteromorphism, a form of epistatic gene or allele

Here's more about seed heteromorphism
https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...018.01412/full

Now you guys know. Another info you can add to your grow library.

I think your female is heterozygous for the two seed coloration traits you show. On basic Mendelian principles I think there will be weak to no correlation with the phenotypic markers that matter to us ... vigor, potency, type of high ...

You might be right.

Well, the only way to find out is grow this seeds and see if there's any difference between the parents and the progeny in terms of the markers you've described. That would be my next project.

Btw, not saying you're wrong but there's more to genetics than Mendelian principles, there are hosts of other genetic processes that don't follow Mendelian.

Is it possible that pollen from the males drifted to the other branch while pollinating? Usually when I pollinate just a branch or two I end up with some seeds on other branches despite my best efforts to isolate just the branches I intend to pollinate. Not saying that's the case but might be a possibility.

xtsho said:

Is it possible that pollen from the males drifted to the other branch while pollinating? Usually when I pollinate just a branch or two I end up with some seeds on other branches despite my best efforts to isolate just the branches I intend to pollinate. Not saying that's the case but might be a possibility.

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I hear you man, but these are the 2 branches that I specifically pollinated.

I pollinated 2 females skunk, 2 branches per female. 1 female produced all black/dark brown seeds on all branches. This female produced the above seeds on each branch, black and spotted pale tan seeds, (seemingly) equally divided on each branch.

How is this going?

Hey man...

I haven't pop the seeds yet, it would be my next project. I'm currently doing my F1 Skunk #1 x White Widow. So by the time im done with this current project, the seeds would be about 5 months old, just the perfect age for germination.

Very interesting! I have seen pepper plants with different colored peppers on the same plant. I would guess that it's a trait of the female.

So it begun

I got 2 project going, dropped 20 seeds, 100% germination but 2 sprout died immediately, 90% are healthy sprout.

Almost 2 weeks from sprout. Vigorous growth, seems to show heterosis. Not feeding it yet.



very Indica looking. Don't know whether ill label this as IBL1 or F1. My other project is an F1 cross of Unknown Indica x Skunk #1

Xs121 said:

Anybody?

Nobody have seen this happened before?

Cmon pollen chuckers and breeders.....any experience, opinion....appreciated

Click to expand...

You used two different males. I think your answer lies in that direction.

I'll be harvesting some Prayer Pupil pollen chuck seeds in a week or so where I used two different Prayer Pupil males, but I mixed the pollen intentionally to open up the gene pool and didn't isolate by branch. I expect some variation in the seeds, but not as much as in the example below.

Sometimes I pollinate a single female with pollen from several different males. In those cases, I marked / isolate for identification. These seeds will vary in size, shape and color, due to more genetic possibilities.

Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get - Forrest Gump

Rob Roy said:

You used two different males. I think your answer lies in that direction.

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It's a possibility, though 2 things that cant be explained by the male genetics....

1. the other female that was pollinated by the same males only produced black seeds, no tan seed.

2. each branch was pollinated by a specific male (no mix pollen here). So if a male genetic is responsible for the tan seed, wouldn't it be logical that one branch would be tan seeds and the other branch is of black seeds? In this case, each branch has both tan and black seeds almost split in the middle.

I do like your idea of mixed pollen though, I think it has merit for small breeding project having multiple males (pollen donor), I might try.

Xs121 said:

It's a possibility, though 2 things that cant be explained by the male genetics....

1. the other female that was pollinated by the same males only produced black seeds, no tan seed.

2. each branch was pollinated by a specific male (no mix pollen here). So if a male genetic is responsible for the tan seed, wouldn't it be logical that one branch would be tan seeds and the other branch is of black seeds? In this case, each branch has both tan and black seeds almost split in the middle.

I do like your idea of mixed pollen though, I think it has merit for small breeding project having multiple males (pollen donor), I might try.

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It's possible that a fixed pairing, one female and one male could yield different phenos, why couldn't it be possible that a fixed pairing could also yield some variation in the seed appearance too? Especially with all the hybrids out there?

Just positing the question above, usually any pollen chucks I've made from one female and one male have seeds which resemble each other.

Rob Roy said:

You used two different males. I think your answer lies in that direction.

I'll be harvesting some Prayer Pupil pollen chuck seeds in a week or so where I used two different Prayer Pupil males, but I mixed the pollen intentionally to open up the gene pool and didn't isolate by branch. I expect some variation in the seeds, but not as much as in the example below.

Sometimes I pollinate a single female with pollen from several different males. In those cases, I marked / isolate for identification. These seeds will vary in size, shape and color, due to more genetic possibilities.

Life is like a box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get - Forrest Gump

Click to expand...

How does mixing pollen open up the gene pool? Are you mixing the pollen from two sibling males? Why would you intentionally want to increase seed variation? Is that a way to get plants more like the parents from inbred f2's?

the seed colors could be a result of flower age. not sure how cannabis floral clusters decide on the number of (are they called calyaxes) buds to produce per whirl / node, however that might be how your seeds differ. Sorry I am not very well versed in cannabis physiology.

Don_Sequitor said:

How does mixing pollen open up the gene pool? Are you mixing the pollen from two sibling males?

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2 or more males from the same parent would still produce genetic variation
2 or more males from different parents (same strain) would produce wider gene pool.

Personally I don't mix pollen from different males. I would rather pollinate individual branch with different male donor. If resources is not a problem, specially space and plant counts then the way to go is 1 male donor to set number of females (depending on the breeding system) this is mainly to keep track of the progenies multiplied several times according to the number of males to be use for breeding.

The mix pollen idea though IMO is useful to small breeders which gives the ability to use wider gene pool with limited resources.

Don_Sequitor said:

Why would you intentionally want to increase seed variation?

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Starting a true breeding requires all the possible genomes that is available for such strain. The goal of the breeder is to produce the trait or traits the breeder desire with healthy genomes to back-up the whole part of the strain.

Working with limited genomes and further limiting it by selective breeding (based on phenotype) can increase the chance of deleterious outcome such as prone to diseases, hermaphroditic tendencies, etc..

Don_Sequitor said:

the seed colors could be a result of flower age

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I have already addressed this possibility in my previous post. Both black and tan seeds are present in both young and mature calyxes.

Don_Sequitor said:

How does mixing pollen open up the gene pool? Are you mixing the pollen from two sibling males? Why would you intentionally want to increase seed variation? Is that a way to get plants more like the parents from inbred f2's?

the seed colors could be a result of flower age. not sure how cannabis floral clusters decide on the number of (are they called calyaxes) buds to produce per whirl / node, however that might be how your seeds differ. Sorry I am not very well versed in cannabis physiology.

Click to expand...

I was hoping for a wider gene pool expression using brothers. Besides I think the girl receiving the pollen kinda digs it. I'm no scientist either, it's quite possible I'm going about it wrong.

But I'm not looking to create the next Chocolate thunder vanilla berry cookies kush strain, just having fun smelling the flowers.