saw a 99% and Obama bumper sticker on the same car

InCognition said:

I don't like to view it as a theft from you directly, because really it's not. I guess it could be, but when you logically think about it, the government is stealing more from you, in a more direct fashion, than I am when I don't pay income tax.


How do I justify it? Well...

I like to think of it as, I will not ever see my Social Security, so I'm just taking back what is mine to begin with, and that's my own money that would have otherwise been saved for retirement, if the government hadn't taken it from me to begin with. I'm perfectly capable of saving my own money, I don't need the government setting up my retirement finances for me. If I have to steal from the government to financially disconnect them from my retirement, I will do so.

It's not my right to live a life beyond which I can afford, just so that I can rely on SS during retirement, and take more from SS than I put in. That's what we call an unethical pyramid-scheme practice, so I figure I'm being more so ethical, in saving what I'm obligated in saving for, and that is retirement. Even though I have to commit a form of theft, the greater good of that theft, outweighs what would otherwise be my unethical burden on society through the SS system. I guess in such situation, I'm essentially stealing from the SS beneficiaries and/or the government, both of which I will gladly agree to do, since both parties are essentially committing theft through that very same SS system.

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Except that you are indeed "stealing from me" in accord with your own philosophy by not pulling your own weight. Now I don't think of it that way because I believe that my payments are for order, and that order includes your being taken care of - not well, not extravagently but in order that you are safe.

RyanTheRhino said:

So you have forgotten about last years budget already? The government shut down scare and all that good bs

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there was no budget last year. only a useless pissing match over continuing resolutions for the third straight year. this is all the same bush budget, barry is just playing the blame game. he knows he cant make the current stupidity fly without making either massive tax hikes or massive spending cuts.

he figures if he doesnt make a budget, then when the entire federal government is about to topple, the people who have so far refused to join the "eat the rich" bandwagon will have no choice but to vote for ANYTHING that might keep us all from going off the cliff.

barry is engineering the destruction of our system (as flawed and crippled as it is) to ensure that his plans to remake our nation in the model of scandinavia will be the only rational choice.

he has set up a no-win proposition, western european democratic socialism or somalian anarcho-starvationalism.

canndo said:

Except that you are indeed "stealing from me" in accord with your own philosophy by not pulling your own weight. Now I don't think of it that way because I believe that my payments are for order, and that order includes your being taken care of - not well, not extravagently but in order that you are safe.

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I do see how you could correlate my philosophies and classify it as hypocrisy, but you just don't understand where I'm coming from. I'm just not seeing it that way for one simple reason... I will not see or get SS in my lifetime, so why would I pay into a system that is using me? I will not, willingly. So if I have to steal throughout other avenues of taxes, to make up for the government's usery upon me, through SS, I will do so.

Beyond that, I am very much so pulling my weight when I save my own money for my own retirement, instead of potentially taking more out of SS than I will have put in, throughout my life.

I will not willingly partake in a system that lets people spend their income frivolously, just so that these individuals can rely on a government-income once they retire. Not only the fact, that one can irresponsibly spend their income throughout life without properly saving for retirement, but the fact that the same individual can potentially earn more from SS than they put into the system, is another reason as to why I will not willingly partake in such a delusional system.

SS is nothing more than a flawed delusion of a "security" instrument, conjured up by the government. It accomplishes nothing other than promoting irresponsible monetary behaviour, and creates another publicly funded outlet for the government to commit theft and manipulation upon.

If you can't manage to save money for your own retirement, you have absolutely no business taking money from a system in which was slightly funded by yourself, but more so funded by many others. It's problems like SS that are accounting for the arising, and dire financial circumstances that the United States is facing.

RIPLouDogg said:

This twisted logic makes so many assumptions its ridiculous. You obliviously do not know how SS works. It is not a pyramid scheme, no matter what Rush says.

Look up what a pyramid scheme is, then look up what SS is.

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It's not a pyramid scheme in standard, protocol terms of what a pyramid scheme is, but yes it really is a form of pyramid scheme, none-the-less.

You'll find that out sometime in the next decade most likely, when SS gets entirely revamped to make up for it's fraudulent/ignorant formation. That's if SS even survives, because it's very possible that it will disappear in my life, in fact I personally believe it's inevitable. A system that "works" wouldn't change drastically or disappear now would it? Well sadly, it will do either or both.

InCognition said:

...you just don't understand where I'm coming from.

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i do!

you say watching poor people die is the righteous thing to do.

you call taxation theft, yet you admit that you have to consent to it. hypocrisy.

when presented with the option to go somewhere else, you say you like america (admitting that there are certain benefits) but you scoff at the thought of sharing in the cost of those benefits.

psychotic hypocrisy. i understand exactly where you're coming from.

InCognition said:

It's not a pyramid scheme in standard, protocol terms of what a pyramid scheme is, but yes it really is a form of pyramid scheme, none-the-less.

You'll find that out sometime in the next decade most likely, when SS gets entirely revamped to make up for it's fraudulent/ignorant formation. That's if SS even survives, because it's very possible that it will disappear in my life, in fact I personally believe it's inevitable. A system that "works" wouldn't change drastically or disappear now would it? Well sadly, it will do either or both.

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Social Security has kept millions of people from living in the streets and offered dignity where none would be otherwise. Medicare has kept millions from dying miserable deaths and staved off abject dispare for those who for whatever reason had no other alternatives. It is far from a perfect system and it is a convenient place for government spenders to raid but it is fixable, it is manageable and it is important . . for an orderly society.

I marvel at those who don't see these things as being important.

UncleBuck said:

i do!

you say watching poor people die is the righteous thing to do.

you call taxation theft, yet you admit that you have to consent to it. hypocrisy.

when presented with the option to go somewhere else, you say you like america (admitting that there are certain benefits) but you scoff at the thought of sharing in the cost of those benefits.

psychotic hypocrisy. i understand exactly where you're coming from.

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You definitely understand all those things.

Poor people dying, when using the strong arm of the government to steal from me... fuck em, they can die and stay poor.

Stealing money from me, through the facade of a tax, then threatening me with monetary or physical penalties if I don't pay, thus resulting in my obligatory-consent to pay the extortion-based taxes... yup that's theft.

I don't wish to participate in pyramid-based, government, fraud schemes. I won't willingly provide my capital towards those schemes, nor will I take capital from them. They are unethical "services" of the government fed by the government's fraudulent and unethical practices.

Psychotic, hardly. Logical, realistic, and rationale... yes.

Standing for the government and their practice in these asinine "services" is psychotic however. I don't got to tell you though, you'll see the inevitable collapse of such systems because their founding was based off that of psychotic delusions.

InCognition said:

You definitely understand all those things.

Poor people dying, when using the strong arm of the government to steal from me... fuck em, they can die and stay poor.

Stealing money from me, through the facade of a tax, then threatening me with monetary or physical penalties if I don't pay, thus resulting in my obligatory-consent to pay the extortion-based taxes... yup that's theft.

I don't wish to participate in pyramid-based, government, fraud schemes. I won't willingly provide my capital towards those schemes, nor will I take capital from them. They are unethical "services" of the government fed by the government's fraudulent and unethical practices.

Psychotic, hardly. Logical, realistic, and rationale... yes.

Standing for the government and their practice in these asinine "services" is psychotic however. I don't got to tell you though, you'll see the inevitable collapse of such systems because their founding was based off that of psychotic delusions.

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i was going to ask you what you would you would give me consent to steal from you, but it turns out i've got everything i need right here.

the point being that you continue to call it theft after admitting that you must consent to such theft.

if i tell someone they can bum a smoke from me, i never call them a thief after i hand them the cigarette. that would be plain retarded of me.

But... You are retarded buck

UncleBuck said:

i was going to ask you what you would you would give me consent to steal from you, but it turns out i've got everything i need right here.

the point being that you continue to call it theft after admitting that you must consent to such theft.

if i tell someone they can bum a smoke from me, i never call them a thief after i hand them the cigarette. that would be plain retarded of me.

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Consenting to theft is called coercion, when the repercussion of not consenting to the theft, is worse than the act of theft to begin with.

I hope you understand, as it's not a very difficult concept to understand.

If you tell someone they can bum a smoke from you, sure you wouldn't call them a thief, as there are no laws that would prosecute you for not offering smokes to people. So yes, it is retarded of you, because your comparison is retarded... it's not a comparison at all. Do you understand Einstein?

UncleBuck said:

i was going to ask you what you would you would give me consent to steal from you, but it turns out i've got everything i need right here.

the point being that you continue to call it theft after admitting that you must consent to such theft.

if i tell someone they can bum a smoke from me, i never call them a thief after i hand them the cigarette. that would be plain retarded of me.

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in the worldview of the ultra-right, "all taxes are theft" crowd, in your imagined bumming a smoke scenario, YOU are asking for a smoke, while several armed men finger their weapons and polish their nightsticks while eyeing him menacingly just waiting for him to decline, so they can beat the living shit out of the greedy smoker who doesnt give away all his butts to any who "ask"

this is the coercive force of government in the eyes of the "taxes are theft" gang. there is a small validity to the point, you cant claim you are just bumming a smoke when your posse is waiting to lay into any who refuse. likewise, since the tax=theft gang gets the same votes as anybody else, and can sue in court, they have recourse to fight the taxes.

Dr Kynes said:

in the worldview of the ultra-right, "all taxes are theft" crowd, in your imagined bumming a smoke scenario, YOU are asking for a smoke, while several armed men finger their weapons and polish their nightsticks while eyeing him menacingly just waiting for him to decline, so they can beat the living shit out of the greedy smoker who doesnt give away all his butts to any who "ask"

this is the coercive force of government in the eyes of the "taxes are theft" gang. there is a small validity to the point, you cant claim you are just bumming a smoke when your posse is waiting to lay into any who refuse. likewise, since the tax=theft gang gets the same votes as anybody else, and can sue in court, they have recourse to fight the taxes.

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nice try, but no one holds a gun to anyone's head and forces them to sign a W2. if you don't put your signature on the dotted line (the line may or may not be dotted), they can't tax you.

UncleBuck said:

nice try, but no one holds a gun to anyone's head and forces them to sign a W2. if you don't put your signature on the dotted line (the line may or may not be dotted), they can't tax you.

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this is not my view. also, you are incorrect.

the w4 wage and tax withholding agreement is the voluntary one, but nobody will hire you without it. HR dinkbags think it is required by law.

the w2 wage and tax statement is a record filed by your employer to detail your gross wage and withholding so you can figure your tax return.

failing to file a tax return in a civil offense punishable by a small fine (9rarely enforced) but failure to file also empowers the secretary of the treasury(or one of his goons) to file the tax return for you, using whatever numbers they deem accurate. a tax refund or bill (its almost always a bill) is then sent to you. if you dont pay that one, shit will get ugly fast. until finally yes, guns will be held to your head as you are dragged off to federal prison for tax evasion.

many people have tried to dodge the income tax by claiming that if they dont assess their own tax they cant be required to pay it. this is specious. the secretary of the treasury (or his goons) are more than happy to assess your taxes fro you, and are authorized to do so in the tax code.

the income tax is not the item at question anyhow, the payroll taxes are the main issue for the tax=theft crowd. payroll taxes are very hard to dodge unless you are self employed or get all your income from investments or agriculture. the w4 wage and tax agreement pretty much means if you work for somebody else, they get to play tax man and collect from you, or the feds will take the taxes out of their hide, and let them get it back from you. (really. if you decline to fill out the W4 and somebody still hires you, they cant withhold taxes from you, but the feds will withhold it from your employer for not getting you to sign the "voluntary agreement" the tax code is fun stuff.

Dr Kynes said:

the w4 wage and tax withholding agreement is the voluntary one

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my bad, it's been a while since i worked one of those types of jobs. i did mean W4, not W2.

but thank you for clarifying that signing that agreement is completely voluntary.

i can't remember the last time i voluntarily agreed to theft without a gun to my head. i'd rather just mow lawns around town instead if i felt so strongly about taxation=theft.

UncleBuck said:

my bad, it's been a while since i worked one of those types of jobs. i did mean W4, not W2.

but thank you for clarifying that signing that agreement is completely voluntary.

i can't remember the last time i voluntarily agreed to theft without a gun to my head. i'd rather just mow lawns around town instead if i felt so strongly about taxation=theft.

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But treadmills are tax free anyways, so why do you care? You should pay taxes on that money, claim it is from a taxable source, it's the "right thing to do".

Harrekin said:

But treadmills are tax free anyways, so why do you care? You should pay taxes on that money, claim it is from a taxable source, it's the "right thing to do".

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there is a good chance that my state will legalize, tax, and regulate treadmill sales starting january 1, 2013. i plan on voting for this measure and, if it passes, will be talking to lawyers, police, and everyone else i need to in order to develop a business plan and procure seed money.

gotta be first out of the gates if it passes, and i plan on doing just that.

Lol..........

UncleBuck said:

there is a good chance that my state will legalize, tax, and regulate treadmill sales starting january 1, 2013. i plan on voting for this measure and, if it passes, will be talking to lawyers, police, and everyone else i need to in order to develop a business plan and procure seed money.

gotta be first out of the gates if it passes, and i plan on doing just that.

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Yeah we'll have a similar ballot in Nov 2333 at our current rate of progression.

People here seriously fucking love treadmills tho...apathy has always been our curse.

Was Finshaggy driving that car? I know he was all about the 99%.

mccumcumber said:

Was Finshaggy driving that car? I know he was all about the 99%.

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Yeah he was 99% retarded...