Root Development vs Plant Growth

skunkushybrid said:

How does that plant stand up? it looks in the pic' as if it is leaning against the wall, so ordinarily would you tie it up?

That's some serious nute burn... not a single fan leaf left and even the little leaves are showing signs of burn. That plant is going to struggle.

Also, what strain is it? It's tiny side branches suggest indica. How long did you veg' the plant?

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Stands up on its own,isn't tied or leaning up on the wall.
Its the bubblegum x blueberry.
It had no veg cycle at all,straight to 12/12.
I tested a mix of miracle grow mollasess and tomorite was to much for the younger ones,would seem that this cross doesnt like nutes much,next time i will only feed them half strength all the way through

nice thread and read skunk and others that have given their thoughts.

i will also be doing this with 16 clones in just under 1gal pots veged for 14 days.

again nice thread and ill be watching...

BIGMIKE13 said:

nice thread and read skunk and others that have given their thoughts.

i will also be doing this with 16 clones in just under 1gal pots veged for 14 days.

again nice thread and ill be watching...

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If the pot is just under a gallon, I'd reckon you can veg' them for 3 months if you want to. I used to use 3 litre pots, give a 12 day veg' (from clone) and achieve 1.5oz -2oz per plant. Looking at my plants now, I should achieve the 2oz mark.

newbutpersistent said:

I think so far the experiments are shaping up to confirm the original hypothesis, that the actual size of the root system, doesn't have anything to do, independently, with the size or healthiness of a plant. As long as the plants are getting the nutrients that they need to maximize the amount of light they are getting too photosynthesize. It would make sense that the plants in nature have large root systems, seeing as they have pretty much all the light they can handle, and that in general each cubic foot of soil has a set level of nutrients in it (varying by region of course), so in order to find more nutrients to maximize the sunlight, it has to have as much root surface area as possible. I think FDD's outdoor plants are also a great example of this, his plants are massive compared to his pot size, because he feeds them enough nutrients. I have also seen plants (my own) which did not have enough light or nutrients, but were in very big pots, and the root system was larger than the upward growth.

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Exactly, it's logical that the root system is merely a vehicle to transport nutrients to the plant.

Why would the shape of a plants root sysytem have anything to do with the plant above ground?

These two sentences are what spurned me on. I used to believe that plants would send out feeler roots to determine how big the plant can get, but then I looked at fdd's outdoor trees, in tiny pots, and then the spark hit. Roots are no more important than a vehicle to transport nutrients. So long as the plant is getting enough nutrients, it will only need a tiny root system to sustain it.

All that wasted medium... all that wasted feed. Strange though, as i'm still using voodoo juice, which is famed for increasing root mass, and also Piranha which is said to increase root mass by up to 700%. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I wouldn't be surprised if those products have an enzyme which either tells the plant, or helps the plant search out more nutes, but if the plant's already getting all the nutes, it wouldn't be searching in the first place.

It's funny, seems like everybody is doing some kind of experimentation with this. My next grow, which ill probably get started on sometime this week is going to be doing the same thing out of neccesity. I have a very limited space and am going to most likely be planting in cut-off 20oz plastic soda bottles. Im going to be experimenting with what natmoon is doing, going straight to 12/12. Ive heard that the plants only grow one long main bud, with very minimal side branching. This would be perfect b/c with the small plant size and small pot size, I could fit probably 16 in my 18" X 25" space.

Do you think the 20oz soda bottle would be enough?

I wouldn't bother going straight to flower... especially from seed. The plant needs time to mature before it starts flowering, and by placing it straight under 12 hours light, you are only giving it half the light it needs to mature quickly enough to provide you with a decent yield.

I should think that a 20 oz soda bottle would be enough, although as I haven't got any seed at the moment, I'm not sure how a seed version of this experiment would turn out.

The flowerers had a mid week feed yesterday. Here it is (as it's slightly different to the first feed this week), into 9litres of water:

Sensi Bloom A, 19.5ml
Sensi Bloom B, 19.5ml
MET Bloom, 12ml
Fulvic Acid, 12ml
Barricade, 1ml
Carboload, 7ml
Cannazym, 15ml
Big Bud, 50ml

skunkushybrid said:

Exactly, it's logical that the root system is merely a vehicle to transport nutrients to the plant.

Why would the shape of a plants root sysytem have anything to do with the plant above ground?

All that wasted medium... all that wasted feed. Strange though, as i'm still using voodoo juice, which is famed for increasing root mass, and also Piranha which is said to increase root mass by up to 700%. hmmmmmmmmmmmm.

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I believe the distinction that needs to be made is between general plant biology and specific cannabis cultivation. The work you are doing may not really be pointing at the role of root development. In the wild, a plant with a greater root system will have a better chance of getting more nutrients. You are making sure the plants you are raising are getting a rich mix of designer nutrients. So it is possible you will make a conclusion based on solving for the wrong problem.

I'm not quite sure about the 12/12 from seedling, I think the idea is that the plant begins flowering as quickly as it is possible. The thread I read it in said it was being used alot in holland and that the plants don't branch very much, just make one 12-16" cola up the whole stem. This could be very efficient b/c you can pack so many into such a small area. I switched mine to 12/12 when they were like 2 weeks, only first two sets of fan leaves. They began growing much faster immediately after swithcing to 12/12. Although that was only about a week ago, much to be seen yet.

Silk - It could be different for other species of plant, however I think it's very likely this is universal; that a plant's root system doesn't independently inhibit the maximum size of the plant, that the factors affecting the growth and healthiness of a plant are the correct levels of light, nutrients, humidity, etc. and that the roots only have to get as big as they need to to ensure the plant gets the proper nutrients (i.e. if a plants root mass can consist of only one root, and it gets enough nutes to keep the plant running strong, (theoretically) it wouldn't need more than that one root).

newbutpersistent said:

Silk - It could be different for other species of plant, however I think it's very likely this is universal; that a plant's root system doesn't independently inhibit the maximum size of the plant, that the factors affecting the growth and healthiness of a plant are the correct levels of light, nutrients, humidity, etc. and that the roots only have to get as big as they need to to ensure the plant gets the proper nutrients (i.e. if a plants root mass can consist of only one root, and it gets enough nutes to keep the plant running strong, (theoretically) it wouldn't need more than that one root).

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uhuh. I know I mentioned nutrients in my comment that you are responding to. I wasn't saying that the general relationship of root development to plant size may differ from different species of plants. But that general biology and cultivation are different. So in other words we have seen natmoon's plant in a "coffe cup". Would the same strain grown under the same conditions at the same time with the same nutrients in a larger container yield more? If it does always then you can conclude or at least suggest that the larger root system is repsonible for the higher yield. Am I clear now?

silk said:

Would the same strain grown under the same conditions at the same time with the same nutrients in a larger container yield more? If it does always then you can conclude or at least suggest that the larger root system is repsonible for the higher yield. Am I clear now?

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I have already grown this strain a few times from clone, in much larger containers. Usually 3 litre containers. ATM, the plants are exactly the right size they usually are. They are on target, even though they are in a container a 6th of the size.

I always use the same rich mix of nutes too.

I have just harvested 3 plants and each plant got me 1.5-2oz, after a 12 day veg' in 3 litre containers. The ones I have in flower now had an 18 day veg', so should raise the 2oz per plant minimum... and from what I already know about this strain these girls are well on target. I actually still have a 2oz plant ready to come down in the next couple of days. I'll take a pic' once lights come on later.

silk, I fail to see how this is anything other than a test of root development. It has long been held as true that 1 gallon of container is suitable for one month veg'... I now believe this is bullshit (Mr Jorges Cervantes)... and also fdd' has proved as much with his outdoor grows, even remarking that rootbound is bullshit. I believe him, I have an indica clone that's been vegging for 30 days (from clone) in a 300ml container.

Roots are not important AT ALL. They are merely a vehicle to transport nutrients to the plant.

Also, i do not really care for other plants... only cannabis. I'm an indoor cultivator, and I'm investigating the role of root development in indoor cannabis cultivation. I agree that this experiment is very far removed from what could be termed scientific. I would need to do the side by side grow to determine exact differences (even then I'd need to do the same test around 10 times)... but this is for me. I only need to prove this to myself, and I already have enough knowledge of this strain to prove it.

newbutpersistent said:

I'm not quite sure about the 12/12 from seedling, I think the idea is that the plant begins flowering as quickly as it is possible. The thread I read it in said it was being used alot in holland and that the plants don't branch very much, just make one 12-16" cola up the whole stem. This could be very efficient b/c you can pack so many into such a small area. I switched mine to 12/12 when they were like 2 weeks, only first two sets of fan leaves. They began growing much faster immediately after swithcing to 12/12. Although that was only about a week ago, much to be seen yet.

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I've never flowered straight from seed, but i have flowered too early before and they can take a couple of weeks to show sex. The plants also didn't provide a very good yield... I ALWAYS grow seed plants properly. For one thing, I want to find a mom... and I do it all while they are still in veg'. The males are thrown out, a mom is picked... and the rest are shoved into flower.

I only grow from seed to find a good mom plant. I like strong mothers, and reverted moms are never as strong as one that's never left 24/0.

This straight to flower thing is very similar to what I'm doing. I imagine the intention is to make extra space in your indoor grows, by using smaller pots... maybe to avoid the (what I now know as) mythical root bound, pot bound whatever you want to call it... the desire for less side branching to fit more plants beneath the light. Indoor cultivation is about maximising your space, and discovering new ways to achieve this.

It has been hereto believed that a large healthy root system is essential for a healthy large plant... so we indoor cultivators buy large pots... too large as our plants never get vegged long enough to fill them, lol. So what if, it is discovered that roots are not very important at all... are in fact no more important than a way to suck nutrients into the plant?

Bud production, plant growth, and stem thickness are all on a par with my other grows in larger pots, with the same strain... indeed the same plant, as these are all clones from one mother plant.

The first and second pic's show the six plants I have chosen to get the best of the light. As you can see from the second pic'... one of the plants is actually in a smaller pot. Those pots hold around 300ml. The plant is exactly the same size (on average) as the other 5.

The other 2 pic's are of my ex moms. the first is of the chronic, the second is of the la conf'. 15 days into flower. They'll soon be getting some good light after the last chronic plant comes down today.

Looking at the first and third pic's, it's actually quite hard to imagine that they are exactly the same plant. The first pic shows the plants to have long slender fan leaves... whereas the third pic' of the mom has smaller fan leaves.

This must have something to do with topping, and training the plant. Cannabis is a survivor, and it adapts readily to changes in environment... It is not the roots where we need to concentrate our efforts, but the plant itself.

The plants have necrotic spots and slight nute burn to the tips

natmoon said:

The plants have necrotic spots and slight nute burn to the tips

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They do seem to have a lot of fan leaves though don't they.

nongreenthumb said:

They do seem to have a lot of fan leaves though don't they.

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I always trim my leaves all the way through my grow,all though i would not if i had a large grow area.
I have found that occasional trimming does not shock the plant at all and that it is natural for the plant to lose some leaf during flowering.
As long as you leave a fair amount of top leaf on the plant they wont even notice and the roots that they had established for the leaves that you have removed will be rerouted for buds and bud leaves.

natmoon said:

The plants have necrotic spots and slight nute burn to the tips

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The necrotic spots were down to the insects... although they are gone now... I have got no nute burn on my plants.

This strain produces a lot of side branches, maybe up to around half oz dry weight is made up by the side branches with the main cola coming in at up to 1.5oz. I usually tie the side branches in tight to the main cola.

hey skunk,
Just wondering if you mind if i join in on your experiment. I have 2 Purp clones that have been in 16oz cups for about a week now, and i just put one into a 1g pot last night. They are the same size and have been getting the same food.

I will be taking pic's regularly. I will post starter pics when i get my camera some batteries.

Heres those pics i offered...
These were taken before transplant...

also, the large number of fan leaves could be an adaptaion to the amount of nutrients, the plant qould be making as many leaves as it needs to photosynthisize the nutrients it's getting, just a thought.
what was your yield from the plants you flowered too early? I know it wont be alot but if I can fit 16 plants and get 1/4 - 1/2 oz from each that will be 1/4 - 1/2 lb from all 16. It may not be as much as I could theoretically get, however, it would keep me happy for quite a while.
Yeah, I've been thinking about this method and I'm pretty sure it would work better with clones, however that small grow room I have is the only one I got for right now, and seeing as it's only about 18" between floor and bottom of lights, I can't really fit a mom in there (unless I am mistaken, in which case please let me know), not to mention I couldn't really have the one room be in 24/0 and 12/12 at same time.
Also, b/c of my height constrictions, how tall did those early-flowered plants get?

p.s. I haven't seen any sign of sex yet, which is what I expected. I did see a growth spurt, but what I figure is that obviously the plant won't start flowering until it's mature. It's just that with this method, the plant starts flowering as soon as it is able to. Of course my plants have also been through a little bit of stress with an unseasonable heatwave we had when they were a couple of weeks old. Also I had to get them out of the house for 2 days and they were in complete darkness for the time.