Yes and thanks for being verbose LOL. I prefer more words than not enough!!...I have been reading as much as I can and I have the Growlink system with sensors. Grow link also has a Crop steering guide that I tried to attach here if it works. I have run the crop steering automated program yet in my flower room, but have set timers. They are set at first feed 2 hrs. after lights on, and last feed 3 hrs before lights out. I try to get to run off stage about 2 hours before last feed which takes about 4-6 shots from 6am to 11am...basically one 15sec shot every hour. Then maintenance shots from 11am-1pm(last feed) then lights out 4pm. My struggles have been all fundamental as I learn the nuances of new media (RW), new nutes (Jack's 321), and new feed system (top feed drip). Wondering if the nutes that you use are salt based? Salts seem to have there own learning curve...
Rockwool PH and other challenges... Automated Top Feed Drip...Crop Steering
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nxsov180db
Well-Known Member
All nutrients are salts, unless you have some organic stuff. Also all nutrients are derived from the same thing, only difference is the proportions (NPK).
Triplefastaction
Well-Known Member
I've used the one part powdered Megacrop for awhile, so real similar to what you are using. Seems like you've got a handle on things, learn and grow!
Much appreciate the help! Getting dialed in, and your input has been very helpful, so thanks again (few picks from this AM). I have found a sweet spot the plants are happy with for now at 1.0 EC. Obviously the block volume is too big for the plant size right now, which is why I am being careful not to over saturate, and extended dry back times, yet need to keep some fresh nutes going in. Would you drop the EC if you were to feed a couple shots to these daily without run off? Meaning... ...should I give a couple small shots at a lower EC "without run off", so as to not over saturate, but give some fresh? (I did use the Towel trick this weekend and was able to pull 400 mil (16oz) from full saturation). This week should be the second and last good dry back as the roots are starting to pop out the sides of the 8x8x4, and they are drinking roughly the same at 400 mill per 24 hour. It would seem they are eating up the N the fastest as they sit and dry back for a couple days...so my thought was to maybe stay at 1.0 EC but drop the part A, and bump the Part B (N), for a supplemental feed without runoff? Talk about verbose....sorry and thanks for putting up with me!
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Triplefastaction
Well-Known Member
Your plants look nice!
I wouldn't lower the EC. I think your thought process might be if you let the lower EC solution sit in the cubes it'll have the same effect as a higher EC solution run through the cubes?
I try to avoid trying to anticipate what might happen in my cubes. Rather, I feed fresh solution through the cubes multiple times a day, and that way I know exactly what is in there.
I'll say it again, but plants of that size in rockwool should have a sufficient root mass to handle multiple daily feedings. Not saying your way of chasing dryback won't work, but my experience is your growth (and root mass) will explode at this point with multiple feedings. And increased root mass will lead you to having natural drybacks during your dark period.
Try a little of everything and see what works for your environment. You aren't going to kill them overnight!
I wouldn't lower the EC. I think your thought process might be if you let the lower EC solution sit in the cubes it'll have the same effect as a higher EC solution run through the cubes?
I try to avoid trying to anticipate what might happen in my cubes. Rather, I feed fresh solution through the cubes multiple times a day, and that way I know exactly what is in there.
I'll say it again, but plants of that size in rockwool should have a sufficient root mass to handle multiple daily feedings. Not saying your way of chasing dryback won't work, but my experience is your growth (and root mass) will explode at this point with multiple feedings. And increased root mass will lead you to having natural drybacks during your dark period.
Try a little of everything and see what works for your environment. You aren't going to kill them overnight!
Thank you my friend... Sorry to make you repeat yourself on the plants being able to handle the muliti feed. My first RW run was with 4" delta on top of 8" bagged uniblocks, and had about every challenge you could have the whole way through, I did not like that combo, on top of the learning curve.
So you are right, the thought was EC stacking but I agree how that is unpredictable...and yes I'm a bit paranoid because of the first run struggles. So... don't be afraid to saturate is what you are saying, and that the roots will grow better as a result. The plants are drinking roughly 13 - 16oz a day right now and the blocks hold more than 4 times that before run off. My fuzzy math suggests that they will get about a 25% dry back per 24hrs at that rate? My fear is that they will not experience any real dryback if they were to stay completely saturated if I was to daily multi feed. Sounds like that wont be the case.
I am certainly not questioning your experience and suggestions...I 'm just trying to share my concerns and elaborate a bit on where the plants are at, and how they got here. They are 1.5 weeks post transplant... 4x4x2.5 recessed into 8x8x4 (using up what I have, 8x8x8's cut in half) NOT OPTIMAL I KNOW. Soooo....because they were inserted into the block...the roots were very quick to come out the bottom as there was only an inch of new media underneath, leaving the sides and upper 3 inches to populate, So I'm trying to encourage them travel out and up a bit if that makes sense. So do you think the upper staying wetter will get the roots do that?
Admittedly, I didn't think there would be as much of a learning curve with RW, but as I'm learning the way, I am seeing the benefit for sure and starting to get more comfortable.
They are a bit cramped in the veg room as you can see, and moving them this weekend into the spacious flower room where I will veg them a bit more (9 plants per light), where they will be equipped with the auto drippers and Growlink
Again, I appreciate you taking the time and having patience with me!
So you are right, the thought was EC stacking but I agree how that is unpredictable...and yes I'm a bit paranoid because of the first run struggles. So... don't be afraid to saturate is what you are saying, and that the roots will grow better as a result. The plants are drinking roughly 13 - 16oz a day right now and the blocks hold more than 4 times that before run off. My fuzzy math suggests that they will get about a 25% dry back per 24hrs at that rate? My fear is that they will not experience any real dryback if they were to stay completely saturated if I was to daily multi feed. Sounds like that wont be the case.
I am certainly not questioning your experience and suggestions...I 'm just trying to share my concerns and elaborate a bit on where the plants are at, and how they got here. They are 1.5 weeks post transplant... 4x4x2.5 recessed into 8x8x4 (using up what I have, 8x8x8's cut in half) NOT OPTIMAL I KNOW. Soooo....because they were inserted into the block...the roots were very quick to come out the bottom as there was only an inch of new media underneath, leaving the sides and upper 3 inches to populate, So I'm trying to encourage them travel out and up a bit if that makes sense. So do you think the upper staying wetter will get the roots do that?
Admittedly, I didn't think there would be as much of a learning curve with RW, but as I'm learning the way, I am seeing the benefit for sure and starting to get more comfortable.
They are a bit cramped in the veg room as you can see, and moving them this weekend into the spacious flower room where I will veg them a bit more (9 plants per light), where they will be equipped with the auto drippers and Growlink
Again, I appreciate you taking the time and having patience with me!
Triplefastaction
Well-Known Member
I hope I'm being helpful!
Grodan's literature suggests a 10-20% dryback overnight, with the lower number to be used during veg as they should be kept wetter. They also state you should never have greater than 50% dryback because It will cause "plant damage" (the EC and PH probs we talked about earlier.) Maybe you are trying to achieve too large of drybacks?
The issue with trying to "steer the roots" is it kinda suggests some parts of the rockwool would have more moisture than other parts and we know that's not true because as long as we are watering the RW properly it should be evenly saturated, it's just the nature of the beast. Once your roots hit bottom they are going to spread out naturally.
Think of the rockwool as your plant's "vase" - it exists only to hold your plant upright and to contain the nutrients that you now have the ability to 100% control down to the last drop. You just got to change the water more frequently in the vase since your plant is growing, versus a dead cut flower.
I know my way is not the only way, but hopefully it gives you some concepts to push your grow in the right direction. Good luck.
Grodan's literature suggests a 10-20% dryback overnight, with the lower number to be used during veg as they should be kept wetter. They also state you should never have greater than 50% dryback because It will cause "plant damage" (the EC and PH probs we talked about earlier.) Maybe you are trying to achieve too large of drybacks?
The issue with trying to "steer the roots" is it kinda suggests some parts of the rockwool would have more moisture than other parts and we know that's not true because as long as we are watering the RW properly it should be evenly saturated, it's just the nature of the beast. Once your roots hit bottom they are going to spread out naturally.
Think of the rockwool as your plant's "vase" - it exists only to hold your plant upright and to contain the nutrients that you now have the ability to 100% control down to the last drop. You just got to change the water more frequently in the vase since your plant is growing, versus a dead cut flower.
I know my way is not the only way, but hopefully it gives you some concepts to push your grow in the right direction. Good luck.
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Thanks again...starting to get the feel. That balance on pushing the initial dryback and EC spikes like you said. Will use the 6" when I use up what I have.
FYI...the towels have been a game changer...Thanks!
That makes sense burying the cube thanks. Are you still running RW or Coco...been thinking of trying a coco run at some point. It would seem that depending on the normal factors, that you can achieve basically the same result in either medium?
lusidghost
Well-Known Member
I'm currently using RW, but not having a great run. I would say RW is harder, but it has it advantages. I think end results are about the same. I used the rockwool cubes with the coco because my veg room is smaller than my flowering tents, so it was a lot easier to deal with them. I saved a lot of water and the plants could get pretty big before they needed transplanted. It would only take a few days to fill out the coco once the found their new homes.
Im harvesting my first RW his weekend and it was not good. I have a good canopy but small buds. I fought the whole way through with every issue there is LOL... So I feel your pain. What week are you in? Flower I assume.
I'm glad you brought that up as I am planning a coco run like I said and have no drip setup in my veg room, so hand feed, but can fit 40 plant/10 per table. I was thinking of 2 or 3 gallon air bags, 40% perlite, and 9 per light using automated drip. Have never run coco... Do you think 2-3 gallon would take a several feed per day schedule with good overnight dry back? I have read some have grown trees in a half gallon. Veg set up attached
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phantom grower
Member
I want to start off by saying thank u for asking all the questions I wouldn't even know to ask. I have zero experience w rockwool so this won't really be any help to u. I will be starting up my first rockwool grow so I hope u don't mind that I use ur failures and successes to guide me lol.
U mentioned how ur flower cycle went pretty poorly, do u know why? What were some of the different issues u had and do u understand why they happened?
Hey sorry for the delay... Main problems were under developed roots, improper EC balance, PH fluctuations, lockout...etc. When I have a moment, I will share some of the things that I have figured out. I'm still trying to get a hold of growing in RW, as well as using Jacks 321. I have some issues myself right now, and am posting somne pics and asking for help in the next post here.... so pay attention to the replies as they may be helpful.
Hey all and thank you in advance for the help!......
Me again trying to dial in my VEG in RW before flipping, and could use some HELP!!.... (now my second run in RW)
With your input, I made some headway from where I was at so Thanks to you all for that. I have been feeding at about 1 EC @ 5.5PH then letting dry back for a couple days to let roots establish. This seemed to be the sweet spot for EC and the plants were looking pretty good (a big improvement). The EC would spike a bit after dry back as expected and the PH would climb a bit as well, but stayed fairy consistent, and was not seeing any real DEF's.
I started to feed more and not let dryback as much, and "coincidentally" began seeing small signs of DEF in fans (mostly larger fans, but now spreading at bit. I moved my plants from VEG room to Flower room this weekend and had bumped the EC to 1.2 with a feed the day before the move.
Every feed I have done is with plenty of runoff. My PH is rising and must be in mid 7's because my runoff is around 6.5 after going in at 5.5. Anyway...the DEF's are getting worse and want to get this figured out ASAP so I can flip in a couple weeks. I would love your help and input here to figure out what I'm doing wrong...and what to do to fix it. Again...I'm new RW and Jacks 321.
Wondering if the Silica is causing some issues? I do let the silica mix and settle for hours before adding nutes. Also let nutes settle before finally adjustiong PH, and water temp at 72
I may be way off here...but the DEF's seemed to become worse when I stopped letting dryback to at least 40-50% before feeding?
Here are the stats:
Nutes and Media...hand feeding right now till I get some adapters for top plates this week for autodrip
RW 8x8x4 (using up my blocks)
Jacks 321 (1.2 EC @ 5.5 going in and 6.5 runoff)
Superthrive
Roots acell
Recharge
Cal Mag
TPS Silica
Room Environment
78 degrees
74 RH
850 C02
400 PPFD ( was at 350 in VEG Room)
18 on 6 off
Me again trying to dial in my VEG in RW before flipping, and could use some HELP!!.... (now my second run in RW)
With your input, I made some headway from where I was at so Thanks to you all for that. I have been feeding at about 1 EC @ 5.5PH then letting dry back for a couple days to let roots establish. This seemed to be the sweet spot for EC and the plants were looking pretty good (a big improvement). The EC would spike a bit after dry back as expected and the PH would climb a bit as well, but stayed fairy consistent, and was not seeing any real DEF's.
I started to feed more and not let dryback as much, and "coincidentally" began seeing small signs of DEF in fans (mostly larger fans, but now spreading at bit. I moved my plants from VEG room to Flower room this weekend and had bumped the EC to 1.2 with a feed the day before the move.
Every feed I have done is with plenty of runoff. My PH is rising and must be in mid 7's because my runoff is around 6.5 after going in at 5.5. Anyway...the DEF's are getting worse and want to get this figured out ASAP so I can flip in a couple weeks. I would love your help and input here to figure out what I'm doing wrong...and what to do to fix it. Again...I'm new RW and Jacks 321.
Wondering if the Silica is causing some issues? I do let the silica mix and settle for hours before adding nutes. Also let nutes settle before finally adjustiong PH, and water temp at 72
I may be way off here...but the DEF's seemed to become worse when I stopped letting dryback to at least 40-50% before feeding?
Here are the stats:
Nutes and Media...hand feeding right now till I get some adapters for top plates this week for autodrip
RW 8x8x4 (using up my blocks)
Jacks 321 (1.2 EC @ 5.5 going in and 6.5 runoff)
Superthrive
Roots acell
Recharge
Cal Mag
TPS Silica
Room Environment
78 degrees
74 RH
850 C02
400 PPFD ( was at 350 in VEG Room)
18 on 6 off
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Hey there...so here is a list of some mistakes I made:
Keep in mind I'm new to RW and still figuring it out. I dont want to send you down a wrong road. I feel likw I have more questions than answers!
- I squeezed the blocks a little to get runoff. Dont...it ruins the block
- I over saturated earlie in veg and stunted root growth... Also got some root rot
- I was over compensating with nutes to fix a deficiency caused by lockout... make sure that PH is correct before chasing with nutes
- I did not prep the blocks correctly... do a good soak in 5.5, then a PH'd nute solution
- It would seem that rockwool needs to keep the nutes flowing though with runoff to keep salt build up down and in good PH zone
- I was going too strong on the Ec at 2.4 EC (Jacks 123)... hand fed with a 3 day dryback. hqave found that 1-1.5 is better for me in VEG so far
- I'm still trying to get some shit down myself with RW...its way different than Promix...
phantom grower
Member
I appreciate your reply!
First, do u have any tips for not oversaturating the blocks early veg? I know those things hold a metric fuck ton of water and early on the plants won't be able to take pretty much any of it up. I've been reading about people throwing the blocks on a towel and soaking it from the block
When prepping the block u mentioned just a regular 5.5 soak them a 5.8 nutrient soak? Am I understanding that right?
Lastly, sorry for repeating myself lol but if I have to feed more often at a lower ec then how would u keep from oversat, unless that is further along in veg and flower wen ur root system is progressed?
Thank u for any answers u can potentially give me and I understand u may not have answers for certain questions.
I am coming from dwc so I should be able to use it to my advantage...hopefully
Triplefastaction
Well-Known Member
Sorry it's still causing you issues. Don't give up, you'll get it figured out.
If you are absolutely 100% certain of your ph management practices (because that's *usually* what it is, Jacks is fine overall if you are mixing it correctly) - then here's a rockwool "theory" to consider:
When you were letting them dryback more, it was effectively pushing your EC in the block higher. When you made a change, you not only decreased your feed EC but the more frequent fertigations has caused the block EC to be closer to your feed EC. So maybe it's a double whammy and they just want more? I don't see any yellowing like a N shortage but who knows. Its just a stupid wild assed theory.
Your environmental conditions are completely different than mine and they impact uptake so much. I can get away with 1-1.2, you may not be able to. If you are hand watering still, hit a few of them hard and see how they react. Try to feed more, not just more frequently, because that's 2 different things.
And about the only thing I can say with certainty is repeating myself, but plants the size of yours in rockwool can and should be fed multiple times a day. I'll stop harping on that.
I'm not trying to be obtuse, if I could just tell you I would. Maybe someone else can chime in with some other thoughts.
Triplefastaction
Well-Known Member
Those 2 things don't necessarily go together.
Feed often, especially once the root system is established.
Feed the EC that your plant needs.
Frequent feeding at a low EC doesn't create a cumulative effect for the plant. 1.0 EC =1.0 EC, no matter if you are feeding once per day or 5x per day
Its the nutrient holding capacity of the medium that causes problems with grows, and we use rockwool so we don't have that nutrient stacking issue, as long as we are watering to appropriate levels of runoff each day.