Riddle me this

Rdot03

Well-Known Member
When I got into growing my own I chose RDWC. And after many runs I can't for the life of me figure out what's going on with my solutions. I run 2 diy rdwc systems 3 pots each with 27gal totes spaces equally over 10ft. Most times I monocrop one system and run keeprs in the other system. The systems have there own water chillers and run water falls. In veg I run warmer solution around 70 ph 5.8. Run 4 to 5 weeks veg. I use jacks 321. Each run I have one system that as they drink the ppm drops and ph rises. I top off with food. When the ph drops and ppm increase I top off with water.

The thing that bothers me is after stretch my ppms continue to increase and ph dives. No matter what I do. Ppms in flower are around 700ppm 500 scale. I usually flush the system ever 3 weeks. One thought I had was when the ppm continues to rise I feel add more plain water but also add more food like the plants have more food than the water so it's trying to balance.
Another thought is that when I run different strains they each pull what they want and it may be taking more from one of the other plants.
My room stays around 83 degrees and 60-70% rh
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
When I got into growing my own I chose RDWC. And after many runs I can't for the life of me figure out what's going on with my solutions. I run 2 diy rdwc systems 3 pots each with 27gal totes spaces equally over 10ft. Most times I monocrop one system and run keeprs in the other system. The systems have there own water chillers and run water falls. In veg I run warmer solution around 70 ph 5.8. Run 4 to 5 weeks veg. I use jacks 321. Each run I have one system that as they drink the ppm drops and ph rises. I top off with food. When the ph drops and ppm increase I top off with water.

The thing that bothers me is after stretch my ppms continue to increase and ph dives. No matter what I do. Ppms in flower are around 700ppm 500 scale. I usually flush the system ever 3 weeks. One thought I had was when the ppm continues to rise I feel add more plain water but also add more food like the plants have more food than the water so it's trying to balance.
Another thought is that when I run different strains they each pull what they want and it may be taking more from one of the other plants.
My room stays around 83 degrees and 60-70% rh
Heh, another hydro grower. Good to see!

I've been through this "hoop of flaming" shit and it's really simple. It is normal for pH to drop in flower.

I started growing in 2021 (did one grow in 2017, archived the tent, and started again in 2021) and ran into this behavior. I was referencing what I refer to as "The Wonder Chart" which helps hydro growers understand what's happening in their res. It's handy but it's completely wrong on this issue.

After spending hours of my life pumping nutes out of my res (holds 26 gallons of nutes), a grower who actually understands the chemistry of agricultural nutrients was kind enough to send me a PM.

1709771137837.png

This graphic sheds a bit more light on how cations and anions are exchanged in the root zone.

pH Change Due to Ion Cation Exchange in Res.png

Another cause of pH dropping is bacteria in the root zone. Are you using bennies? What about the color and feel of the root ball? If they have a brown to dark brown coloration or if they don't smell like fresh dirt, that could be a problem.

Re. swapping the res every three weeks - it takes me at least an hour to do a new res so I poked around a bit on the topic of reservoir maintenance.

One approach it "topping off" with RO until the res starts to get pH swings and/or you've depleted the res to a certain percent, 40% being a good metric. This is the approach I use and I've taken this approach because I believe it to be a sound process. This site was instrumental in my taking that approach.

The other side of the coin is to do "add backs", meaning that you're replacing the water uptake with nutrient solution. One of the problems of doing that is that EC does not tell you what's in the res. EC tells you how conductive the res is but that doesn't tell you what's in it. The biggest problem with adding back nutes is that it will cause an imbalance in the res. I've attached a Bugbee paper on this but, in a nutshell, the chemicals that impact EC the most are the ones that are taken up by the plant the most quickly. By adding back full strength nutes, you're adding a full load of N, P, and K, which the plant doesn't need because it just pulled them out of the res because those chemicals are taken up very quickly, but you're also adding in other macro and micro nutrients which are still in the res because they're taken up very slowly. Bugbee provides the details. In their grow chambers, they do chemical analysis so they know what to add back if one particular chemical is out of whack but their add back is their nutrient solution diluted 1:3 (25% strength)

[time passes]

Checked the paper and the good Doctor writes- "1/4 strength Hoagland's solution is about right for plants grown in ambient CO2".

The big, big deal with nutes, add back vs top off is VPD. If you haven't looked into that, this site is really helpful. I started with their PulseOne and retired it for the AC Infinity products, their Controller 69 and their T3 humidifier. I highly recommend them if you haven't already drunk the Koolaid.

80 and 63 is good for flower but 80 and 70 is getting a little "wet". VPD is similar to the "feels like temperature" for humans. At 80 and 63, that's a nice day. At 80 and 70, it's getting clammy. At 80 and 80? No thanks. That temp + RH makes it hard for us to perspire//for plants to transpire.
 

Attachments

Rdot03

Well-Known Member
Heh, another hydro grower. Good to see!

I've been through this "hoop of flaming" shit and it's really simple. It is normal for pH to drop in flower.

I started growing in 2021 (did one grow in 2017, archived the tent, and started again in 2021) and ran into this behavior. I was referencing what I refer to as "The Wonder Chart" which helps hydro growers understand what's happening in their res. It's handy but it's completely wrong on this issue.

After spending hours of my life pumping nutes out of my res (holds 26 gallons of nutes), a grower who actually understands the chemistry of agricultural nutrients was kind enough to send me a PM.

View attachment 5375780

This graphic sheds a bit more light on how cations and anions are exchanged in the root zone.

View attachment 5375781

Another cause of pH dropping is bacteria in the root zone. Are you using bennies? What about the color and feel of the root ball? If they have a brown to dark brown coloration or if they don't smell like fresh dirt, that could be a problem.

Re. swapping the res every three weeks - it takes me at least an hour to do a new res so I poked around a bit on the topic of reservoir maintenance.

One approach it "topping off" with RO until the res starts to get pH swings and/or you've depleted the res to a certain percent, 40% being a good metric. This is the approach I use and I've taken this approach because I believe it to be a sound process. This site was instrumental in my taking that approach.

The other side of the coin is to do "add backs", meaning that you're replacing the water uptake with nutrient solution. One of the problems of doing that is that EC does not tell you what's in the res. EC tells you how conductive the res is but that doesn't tell you what's in it. The biggest problem with adding back nutes is that it will cause an imbalance in the res. I've attached a Bugbee paper on this but, in a nutshell, the chemicals that impact EC the most are the ones that are taken up by the plant the most quickly. By adding back full strength nutes, you're adding a full load of N, P, and K, which the plant doesn't need because it just pulled them out of the res because those chemicals are taken up very quickly, but you're also adding in other macro and micro nutrients which are still in the res because they're taken up very slowly. Bugbee provides the details. In their grow chambers, they do chemical analysis so they know what to add back if one particular chemical is out of whack but their add back is their nutrient solution diluted 1:3 (25% strength)

[time passes]

Checked the paper and the good Doctor writes- "1/4 strength Hoagland's solution is about right for plants grown in ambient CO2".

The big, big deal with nutes, add back vs top off is VPD. If you haven't looked into that, this site is really helpful. I started with their PulseOne and retired it for the AC Infinity products, their Controller 69 and their T3 humidifier. I highly recommend them if you haven't already drunk the Koolaid.

80 and 63 is good for flower but 80 and 70 is getting a little "wet". VPD is similar to the "feels like temperature" for humans. At 80 and 63, that's a nice day. At 80 and 70, it's getting clammy. At 80 and 80? No thanks. That temp + RH makes it hard for us to perspire//for plants to transpire.
Really appreciate your input makes sense
 

amneziaHaze

Well-Known Member
Yea i have the same problem i just hate the idea of removing 60L soo i have been doing small changes but its usless.all or nothing
 

marzig

Well-Known Member
Wow, this thread has been an absolute aha moment for me and with perfect timing! I am into week five on my second dwc auto-flower grow of Super Lemon Haze from ILGM in two "Hydrobucket" buckets (which are amazing!). My first attempt at dwc was two Blue Dream autos from ILGM. Best yield I've had after three years of growing in soil. A little over 400 grams of dynamite medicine. So of course, then I thought I was some kind of hydro expert.

1710004440919.jpeg1710004478074.jpeg

Well, a week ago my PH started dropping like crazy no matter what I tried. After reading this thread I went and looked at my spreadsheet from my first grow and realized that I'd already switched my nutes from veg to bloom at week four. My thoughts this grow was to keep them on veg nutes a little longer and try to get them a little bigger before changing nutes over to bloom. So I quickly added enough Botanicare Hydroplex (which has no nitrogen) to bring my EC up to 1.2 from 1.0 and adjusted PH back to 5.8. Bingo, PH is rock solid at 5.8 and EC is barely dropping and both plants have really perked back up! I'll be doing a total nute change this weekend.

1710004531022.jpeg

I'm seriously considering trying photos on my next grow as I want to try some more aggressive training to increase my yields. Thanks to all for this great thread!
 
Last edited:

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Wow, this thread has been an absolute aha moment for me and with perfect timing! I am into week five on my second dwc auto-flower grow of Super Lemon Haze from ILGM in two "Hydrobucket" buckets (which are amazing!). My first attempt at dwc was two Blue Dream autos from ILGM. Best yield I've had after three years of growing in soil. A little over 400 grams of dynamite medicine. So of course, then I thought I was some kind of hydro expert.

View attachment 5376380View attachment 5376381

Well, a week ago my PH started dropping like crazy no matter what I tried. After reading this thread I went and looked at my spreadsheet from my first grow and realized that I'd already switched my nutes from veg to bloom at week four. My thoughts this grow was to keep them on veg nutes a little longer and try to get them a little bigger before changing nutes over to bloom. So I quickly added enough Botanicare Hydroplex (which has no nitrogen) to bring my EC up to 1.2 from 1.0 and adjusted PH back to 5.8. Bingo, PH is rock solid at 5.8 and EC is barely dropping and both plants have really perked back up! I'll be doing a total nute change this weekend.

View attachment 5376387

I'm seriously considering trying photos on my next grow as I want to try some more aggressive training to increase my yields. Thanks to all for this great thread!
Heh, that's great news!

400 gm? What size tent? If you're in a 2' x 2', that's a very good crop. If you're in a 2' x 4', that's about what seed sellers forecast/predict/lie about in their yield pages because that's really close to 400 gm/sq meter. Don't see yourself short - many auto growers are very happy to get ½ of that.

"a little bigger before changing nutes over to bloom" - personal choice - I run the same nutes, drop to chop. Bloom nutes push a lot of K because plants absorb it going into flower. Where does it go? Into the seeds so that it can be retrieved from the cotyledons. Oh, hold it, our plants don't create seeds. Hmmm…

Bugbee has stated that reason for K uptake. I'll take his word for it, though. After half a dozen grows using the same nutes, I tried a bloom fert (I use jacks 3-2-1). The only change that I'm aware of is that the ammoniacal nitrogen dropped pH so fast I was adding Up at least three times a day. It got so bad, I unboxed a Bluelab doser and let it take care pump its little peristaltic heart out. No mas. One formula, drop to chop for me.

Oh, yeh, "get a little bigger" - nothing to do with the different ferts. Vegetative stages is where the plant builds the infrastructure. A cannabis plant will keep vegging as long as it has > 12 hours ± of light.

Oh, I found a typo in what you posted - "I'm seriously considering trying photos on my next grow as I want to try some more aggressive training am going to increase my light levels to increase my yields."

My belief/understanding/something that's based on a limited knowledge of plant bio - training a plant will tend to increase yield only/primarily/mainly because it spreads out the canopy, allowing the plants to absorb more light. Other than that, I don't think training a plant increases crop yield and crop quality. The underlying rationale is that light is the only means by which cannabis generates food (fertilizer ≠ food, right?). And, per the attached document, research has shown an almost liner relationship between increasing DLI and crop yield and crop quality.

LST and HST are methods of shaping plants but what about yield?

Two documents of interest. The first describes the results of different pruning methods. It's a bit of a grind but it does support the idea of pruning being the best approach to increasing yield. Topping is not discussed.

In the Frontiers paper, there's a lot of good info about light levels but it was only yesterday that I realized that "the dog hadn't barked" (from the Sherlock Holmes story).

In the paper, "CB" is the abbreviation for the "culture basin" - where they grow the plants.

The highlight on page 5 reads "The apical meristems were removed (i.e., “topped”) from the first batch of clones, 10 d after transplant, and the second batch were not topped. "

That tells us that the plants in CB1 were topped but they left the apical stem on the plants that were in CB2.

The issue? Scroll to the Results section and the first sentence reads "No CB effects were found in any leaf photosynthesis, leaf morphology, and post-harvest parameters; therefore, CB1 and CB2 data were pooled for the development of all models except secondary metabolites, which were only measured in CB1."

"No CB effects were found in…" - meaning, as best I can deduce, "there was no difference in". I think that's a valid plain language description. If so, that indicates that topping had no impact on leaf photosynthesis or morphology nor on "post-harvest parameters".

I don't have a definition for "post-harvest parameters" but I can guaran-god-damn-tee that if there had been a significant difference between topped and non-topped it would have been noted and, further, had it been noted, it would have been "a topic that requires further study".

That's not smoking gun evidence but, given that they believed it was valid to glom the results together, I think that's strong support of the argument that topping, in and of itself, doesn't increase yield.

That was a little nugget that I found yesterday (amazing what we get up to when we're sidelined with a case of the lung crud!). The big push is more light ==> more weed.

If anyone is familiar with Chandra and its demonstration the photosynthesis curve starts to roll off at 500µmols, this paper deals with that directly and in a not so subtle manner. No question about it, whoever wrote this paper…did not beat around the bush. ;-)
 

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marzig

Well-Known Member
Heh, that's great news!

400 gm? What size tent? If you're in a 2' x 2', that's a very good crop. If you're in a 2' x 4', that's about what seed sellers forecast/predict/lie about in their yield pages because that's really close to 400 gm/sq meter. Don't see yourself short - many auto growers are very happy to get ½ of that.

"a little bigger before changing nutes over to bloom" - personal choice - I run the same nutes, drop to chop. Bloom nutes push a lot of K because plants absorb it going into flower. Where does it go? Into the seeds so that it can be retrieved from the cotyledons. Oh, hold it, our plants don't create seeds. Hmmm…

Bugbee has stated that reason for K uptake. I'll take his word for it, though. After half a dozen grows using the same nutes, I tried a bloom fert (I use jacks 3-2-1). The only change that I'm aware of is that the ammoniacal nitrogen dropped pH so fast I was adding Up at least three times a day. It got so bad, I unboxed a Bluelab doser and let it take care pump its little peristaltic heart out. No mas. One formula, drop to chop for me.

Oh, yeh, "get a little bigger" - nothing to do with the different ferts. Vegetative stages is where the plant builds the infrastructure. A cannabis plant will keep vegging as long as it has > 12 hours ± of light.

Oh, I found a typo in what you posted - "I'm seriously considering trying photos on my next grow as I want to try some more aggressive training am going to increase my light levels to increase my yields."

My belief/understanding/something that's based on a limited knowledge of plant bio - training a plant will tend to increase yield only/primarily/mainly because it spreads out the canopy, allowing the plants to absorb more light. Other than that, I don't think training a plant increases crop yield and crop quality. The underlying rationale is that light is the only means by which cannabis generates food (fertilizer ≠ food, right?). And, per the attached document, research has shown an almost liner relationship between increasing DLI and crop yield and crop quality.

LST and HST are methods of shaping plants but what about yield?

Two documents of interest. The first describes the results of different pruning methods. It's a bit of a grind but it does support the idea of pruning being the best approach to increasing yield. Topping is not discussed.

In the Frontiers paper, there's a lot of good info about light levels but it was only yesterday that I realized that "the dog hadn't barked" (from the Sherlock Holmes story).

In the paper, "CB" is the abbreviation for the "culture basin" - where they grow the plants.

The highlight on page 5 reads "The apical meristems were removed (i.e., “topped”) from the first batch of clones, 10 d after transplant, and the second batch were not topped. "

That tells us that the plants in CB1 were topped but they left the apical stem on the plants that were in CB2.

The issue? Scroll to the Results section and the first sentence reads "No CB effects were found in any leaf photosynthesis, leaf morphology, and post-harvest parameters; therefore, CB1 and CB2 data were pooled for the development of all models except secondary metabolites, which were only measured in CB1."

"No CB effects were found in…" - meaning, as best I can deduce, "there was no difference in". I think that's a valid plain language description. If so, that indicates that topping had no impact on leaf photosynthesis or morphology nor on "post-harvest parameters".

I don't have a definition for "post-harvest parameters" but I can guaran-god-damn-tee that if there had been a significant difference between topped and non-topped it would have been noted and, further, had it been noted, it would have been "a topic that requires further study".

That's not smoking gun evidence but, given that they believed it was valid to glom the results together, I think that's strong support of the argument that topping, in and of itself, doesn't increase yield.

That was a little nugget that I found yesterday (amazing what we get up to when we're sidelined with a case of the lung crud!). The big push is more light ==> more weed.

If anyone is familiar with Chandra and its demonstration the photosynthesis curve starts to roll off at 500µmols, this paper deals with that directly and in a not so subtle manner. No question about it, whoever wrote this paper…did not beat around the bush. ;-)
Yes it's a 2' x 4' x 72" tent. I scaled up from a 20" x 36" x 60" because I never really had enough height before and was expecting to have larger, taller, and wider plants. I am happy with my yield, even in soil with the smaller tent I was typically getting 140 to 250 gm.

I realize now that the nute thing and getting the plant bigger was bit of nonsense on my part and almost got me into trouble. I had tried some additional supplements that were supposed to change flavor and increase bud production etc. I didn't notice any difference at harvest and they only raised EC so I'm done with all of that. I will continue to use the Botanicare Bloom (2-3-5) as I have 2.5 gals to go through and it seems to work well for me. I saw one YouTube video that seemed to make sense to me. He said that most people put too much emphasis on pushing nutes because it's something that makes people feel like they're really doing something. More important are light and co2. I do run one more light fixture than is recommended by the manufacturer for my size tent. I think I get more even light coverage this way. I see no reason to mess around with co2 as I have a 6" inch exhaust fan.

As far as LST and HST goes. I'm set up to put up trellis netting as the plants grow taller. I want to be able to spread out the colas to get more support, air flow around them, and more light to them. I've never topped my autos. My last grow I had one phenotype that started to shoot up and I simply tied it down and ended up with multiple colas at a pretty even level. But, I would like to be able to thin out some of the lower growth that doesn't get any light. I know from experience that anytime I start removing this lower growth it will really stress the plant out even if it's just a little at a time.

Do you have any thought on differences of potency between photos and autos? It will take me awhile to peruse the literature you have provided. Thanks again!
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
Yes it's a 2' x 4' x 72" tent. I scaled up from a 20" x 36" x 60" because I never really had enough height before and was expecting to have larger, taller, and wider plants. I am happy with my yield, even in soil with the smaller tent I was typically getting 140 to 250 gm.

I realize now that the nute thing and getting the plant bigger was bit of nonsense on my part and almost got me into trouble. I had tried some additional supplements that were supposed to change flavor and increase bud production etc. I didn't notice any difference at harvest and they only raised EC so I'm done with all of that. I will continue to use the Botanicare Bloom (2-3-5) as I have 2.5 gals to go through and it seems to work well for me.
Supplements that change taste, etc. - I don't call them snake oil (I can be polite) but I wouldn't use one and I don't use bottled ferts, either. I switched to dry nutes after my third grow, one reason being that it's all the same 17± chemicals so the big difference in price is marketing and shipping. You do get convenience with bottled nutes and you also don't know what's in the bottle. Check the label - it shows the minimums not the actuals. I'd accept the counter argument that they're "close enough" but one nice thing about having dry nutes (besides costing $1.18 to swap my 26 gallon res) is that I know exactly what's in the res.

I saw one YouTube video that seemed to make sense to me. He said that most people put too much emphasis on pushing nutes because it's something that makes people feel like they're really doing something. More important are light and co2. I do run one more light fixture than is recommended by the manufacturer for my size tent. I think I get more even light coverage this way. I see no reason to mess around with co2 as I have a 6" inch exhaust fan.
Dollars to doughnuts, that's Dr. Bruce Bugbee. Head of Plant Magic at U of Utah, grey haired, and looks like an ad prof. Yeh, he's the man.

Nutes should be provided to the plant to keep them in the sufficiency zone.

Nutrient Sufficiency.png

A lot of growers "push" nutes, thinking that will make "things go better". The grower may feel better but they're emptying their wallet and, at best, not harming their plant.

Increasing CO2 because "it's the cheapest input" is from a Bugbee vid. His audience is commercial, so that's understandable.

Light? His vids were my first source of info back in 2021 re. lighting. I will admit that, even though I had gotten the meat and potatoes of his arguments about "pushing cannabis" in terms of light, it took me another grow or two to pull the trigger on that. Since that point, I routinely run at 1k±.

As far as LST and HST goes. I'm set up to put up trellis netting as the plants grow taller. I want to be able to spread out the colas to get more support, air flow around them, and more light to them. I've never topped my autos. My last grow I had one phenotype that started to shoot up and I simply tied it down and ended up with multiple colas at a pretty even level. But, I would like to be able to thin out some of the lower growth that doesn't get any light. I know from experience that anytime I start removing this lower growth it will really stress the plant out even if it's just a little at a time.

Do you have any thought on differences of potency between photos and autos? It will take me awhile to peruse the literature you have provided. Thanks again!
Re defol - again, vast difference between research and growmies. I was told I should lollipop my plants and a lot of growers do so. Tell someone who knows plant bio that you're doing that and they won't understand. I've attached a paper on pruning and defoliation. Interesting results.

I follow simple advice - remove leaves that are diseased or damaged, that are heavily senesced, or that are blocking air flow. I do not support the concept of removing leaves from the canopy to expose the bud sites. As best I can tell, in the research, bud sites mature based on the availability of growth hormones. A plant has limited need to increase flowering below the canopy, where it's liable to be eaten, rather than above the canopy, where it can be fertilized. I'd love to see the data on this

Re topping autos - topping is a high stress technique and many growers express concern about "slowing down growth" and "letting the plant recover". I've never noticed any reduction of the growth rate and so I ask "Why would the plant slow growth when you're removing a tiny amount of growth that has never benefited the plant and when the wound heals in 24-48 hours?" It seems like a valid question but, to date, no response.

I advocate topping cannabis because it makes the canopy a lot easier to manage. I've attached a paper (I didn't realize I had it, frankly!) on topping. Don't know what it says. However, in the Frontiers paper, I realized when I read it yesterday, that the authors lend creedence to the argument that topping has no impact on yield when they state

"No CB effects were found in any leaf photosynthesis, leaf morphology, and post-harvest parameters; therefore, CB1 and CB2 data were pooled for the development of all models except secondary metabolites, which were only measured in CB1"

In the study, a very good read, they topped one batch and didn't top the other. The sentence above is the first sentence in the Results section and they state that there was no difference in the outcomes from the two batches so they combined them. the study was not about topping, granted, but whether or it was the topic of the study is not material. One of results was that there was no difference between the topped and non-topped.

Autos vs Photos - I'm a new grower so I have zero experience during the early days of autos. My understanding is that it took many years to create the products that are available today. I have had excellent results with autos and, never having seen a rational discussion about problems with autos as they exist as a product today, I can't think of a reason to try to steer growers away from them.

One downside to autos is that they are on their own timetable and, if there are significant issues with the plant, it might start to flower in a less than optimal state. Yes, that's true but not a reason to disparage the product nor dissuade others from trying them - lay out the pros and cons and let people decide for themselves.

I'm doing a photo grow now and will do one for my Fall grow. After that, I may switch back to autos because the fact that they don't require 12 hour of darkness in flower means I can run them with lights on (warmth and < RH) which helps avoid bud rot. Conversely, with photos need for 12 hours of darkness, temps and RH have to be more tirghtly controlled and that a bit me in the ass a year ago with my first photo grow. It was a beautiful plant, see attached, and everything was great until right before chop. At that point, I noticed some discoloration in some of the buds and they felt soft to the touch. I harvested the plant, checked everything out, and binned it all.

With autos running 20/4, the chances of that happening are significantly lower because, according to these pointy headed guys, "You need four hours for spores to germinate on a leaf surface" <== my notes. The additional cost of electricity, even at 45¢ per KWH that I pay here in Southern California, pales in comparison to the loss of a crop.
 

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marzig

Well-Known Member
Re topping autos - topping is a high stress technique and many growers express concern about "slowing down growth" and "letting the plant recover". I've never noticed any reduction of the growth rate and so I ask "Why would the plant slow growth when you're removing a tiny amount of growth that has never benefited the plant and when the wound heals in 24-48 hours?" It seems like a valid question but, to date, no response.

I advocate topping cannabis because it makes the canopy a lot easier to manage. I've attached a paper (I didn't realize I had it, frankly!) on topping. Don't know what it says. However, in the Frontiers paper, I realized when I read it yesterday, that the authors lend creedence to the argument that topping has no impact on yield when they state

"No CB effects were found in any leaf photosynthesis, leaf morphology, and post-harvest parameters; therefore, CB1 and CB2 data were pooled for the development of all models except secondary metabolites, which were only measured in CB1"

In the study, a very good read, they topped one batch and didn't top the other. The sentence above is the first sentence in the Results section and they state that there was no difference in the outcomes from the two batches so they combined them. the study was not about topping, granted, but whether or it was the topic of the study is not material. One of results was that there was no difference between the topped and non-topped.
I topped one of my plants three days ago because I felt it's canopy was going to be hard to manage and also as a little experiment. There were absolutely no negative changes. I was expecting at least some droopy leaves for a few days. Everything I've seen and read says if you're going to top an auto it must be done before flower. This girl has been, at least in pre-flower for a couple of weeks.

Topped_3-11-24.jpg
 

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
Heh, that's great news!

400 gm? What size tent? If you're in a 2' x 2', that's a very good crop. If you're in a 2' x 4', that's about what seed sellers forecast/predict/lie about in their yield pages because that's really close to 400 gm/sq meter. Don't see yourself short - many auto growers are very happy to get ½ of that.

"a little bigger before changing nutes over to bloom" - personal choice - I run the same nutes, drop to chop. Bloom nutes push a lot of K because plants absorb it going into flower. Where does it go? Into the seeds so that it can be retrieved from the cotyledons. Oh, hold it, our plants don't create seeds. Hmmm…

Bugbee has stated that reason for K uptake. I'll take his word for it, though. After half a dozen grows using the same nutes, I tried a bloom fert (I use jacks 3-2-1). The only change that I'm aware of is that the ammoniacal nitrogen dropped pH so fast I was adding Up at least three times a day. It got so bad, I unboxed a Bluelab doser and let it take care pump its little peristaltic heart out. No mas. One formula, drop to chop for me.

Oh, yeh, "get a little bigger" - nothing to do with the different ferts. Vegetative stages is where the plant builds the infrastructure. A cannabis plant will keep vegging as long as it has > 12 hours ± of light.

Oh, I found a typo in what you posted - "I'm seriously considering trying photos on my next grow as I want to try some more aggressive training am going to increase my light levels to increase my yields."

My belief/understanding/something that's based on a limited knowledge of plant bio - training a plant will tend to increase yield only/primarily/mainly because it spreads out the canopy, allowing the plants to absorb more light. Other than that, I don't think training a plant increases crop yield and crop quality. The underlying rationale is that light is the only means by which cannabis generates food (fertilizer ≠ food, right?). And, per the attached document, research has shown an almost liner relationship between increasing DLI and crop yield and crop quality.

LST and HST are methods of shaping plants but what about yield?

Two documents of interest. The first describes the results of different pruning methods. It's a bit of a grind but it does support the idea of pruning being the best approach to increasing yield. Topping is not discussed.

In the Frontiers paper, there's a lot of good info about light levels but it was only yesterday that I realized that "the dog hadn't barked" (from the Sherlock Holmes story).

In the paper, "CB" is the abbreviation for the "culture basin" - where they grow the plants.

The highlight on page 5 reads "The apical meristems were removed (i.e., “topped”) from the first batch of clones, 10 d after transplant, and the second batch were not topped. "

That tells us that the plants in CB1 were topped but they left the apical stem on the plants that were in CB2.

The issue? Scroll to the Results section and the first sentence reads "No CB effects were found in any leaf photosynthesis, leaf morphology, and post-harvest parameters; therefore, CB1 and CB2 data were pooled for the development of all models except secondary metabolites, which were only measured in CB1."

"No CB effects were found in…" - meaning, as best I can deduce, "there was no difference in". I think that's a valid plain language description. If so, that indicates that topping had no impact on leaf photosynthesis or morphology nor on "post-harvest parameters".

I don't have a definition for "post-harvest parameters" but I can guaran-god-damn-tee that if there had been a significant difference between topped and non-topped it would have been noted and, further, had it been noted, it would have been "a topic that requires further study".

That's not smoking gun evidence but, given that they believed it was valid to glom the results together, I think that's strong support of the argument that topping, in and of itself, doesn't increase yield.

That was a little nugget that I found yesterday (amazing what we get up to when we're sidelined with a case of the lung crud!). The big push is more light ==> more weed.

If anyone is familiar with Chandra and its demonstration the photosynthesis curve starts to roll off at 500µmols, this paper deals with that directly and in a not so subtle manner. No question about it, whoever wrote this paper…did not beat around the bush. ;-)
No, fertilizer is not food. Plants make their own food through photosynthesis. Think of nutes as more like vitamins.

Increasing dli, only goes so far. You need to eliminate the other limiting factors, such as nutes, and co2. Increasing dli past light saturation point, means you need to increase nutes and co2.
 

Delps8

Well-Known Member
No, fertilizer is not food. Plants make their own food through photosynthesis. Think of nutes as more like vitamins.

I thought this, among other statements, would leave the reader with that understanding:

"light is the only means by which cannabis generates food (fertilizer ≠ food, right?)"

≠ = #

Apologies for the confusion.

Increasing dli, only goes so far. You need to eliminate the other limiting factors, such as nutes, and co2. Increasing dli past light saturation point, means you need to increase nutes and co2.
No doubt. If light is not the limiting factor then whatever is the limiting factor has to be fixed so you can give your plants more light. I've seen two grows where the plant could not sustain more than 400±µmol. In both cases, incorrect watering practices less to "hygrophonic soil" and the plants did a lot better after that was resolved.
 
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Delps8

Well-Known Member
I topped one of my plants three days ago because I felt it's canopy was going to be hard to manage and also as a little experiment. There were absolutely no negative changes. I was expecting at least some droopy leaves for a few days. Everything I've seen and read says if you're going to top an auto it must be done before flower. This girl has been, at least in pre-flower for a couple of weeks.

View attachment 5377721
That's a great looking plant!

"There were absolutely no negative changes. I was expecting at least some droopy leaves for a few days."
Good to hear. I'm getting the impression that plants don't "mourn". ;-)

I've always topped at day 21±, which is usually when there's enough above to fourth node to leave 1"/a few cm above that node. Being still in veg, that allows all structures of the plant, root zone and above "ground", to grow to support that morphology.

If you top after the plant has moved into flower, you're going to be missing a lot of that growth, you're going to have a root system and the above ground structures that grew to support the apical stem, and it might muck up the auxin flow. Need to add more "perhaps" and "maybe" because I do not know, I'm just tossing up ideas on that.


I just found this the other day (source unknown). No doubt, there's a better explanation out there somewhere but, for now, I'll rank this at #1:
1710447566363.jpeg
 

Hollatchaboy

Well-Known Member
I thought this, among other statements, would leave the reader with that understanding:

"light is the only means by which cannabis generates food (fertilizer ≠ food, right?)"

≠ = #

Apologies for the confusion.


No doubt. If light is not the limiting factor then whatever is the limiting factor has to be fixed so you can give your plants more light. I've seen two grows where the plant could not sustain more than 400±µmol. In both cases, incorrect watering practices less to "hygrophonic soil" and the plants did a lot better after that was resolved.
Ah yes.... you did state it correctly. My bad.

Light isn't the only means though. Light, water, and co2 are needed for it to create the necessary sugars.
 

Tomatoesonly

Well-Known Member
Heh, that's great news!
"a little bigger before changing nutes over to bloom" - personal choice - I run the same nutes, drop to chop. Bloom nutes push a lot of K because plants absorb it going into flower. Where does it go? Into the seeds so that it can be retrieved from the cotyledons. Oh, hold it, our plants don't create seeds. Hmmm…
Bugbee has stated that reason for K uptake. I'll take his word for it, though.
Bugbee was talking about phosphorus (P) not potassium (K).
 

amneziaHaze

Well-Known Member
Heh, that's great news!

400 gm? What size tent? If you're in a 2' x 2', that's a very good crop. If you're in a 2' x 4', that's about what seed sellers forecast/predict/lie about in their yield pages because that's really close to 400 gm/sq meter. Don't see yourself short - many auto growers are very happy to get ½ of that.

"a little bigger before changing nutes over to bloom" - personal choice - I run the same nutes, drop to chop. Bloom nutes push a lot of K because plants absorb it going into flower. Where does it go? Into the seeds so that it can be retrieved from the cotyledons. Oh, hold it, our plants don't create seeds. Hmmm…

Bugbee has stated that reason for K uptake. I'll take his word for it, though. After half a dozen grows using the same nutes, I tried a bloom fert (I use jacks 3-2-1). The only change that I'm aware of is that the ammoniacal nitrogen dropped pH so fast I was adding Up at least three times a day. It got so bad, I unboxed a Bluelab doser and let it take care pump its little peristaltic heart out. No mas. One formula, drop to chop for me.

Oh, yeh, "get a little bigger" - nothing to do with the different ferts. Vegetative stages is where the plant builds the infrastructure. A cannabis plant will keep vegging as long as it has > 12 hours ± of light.

Oh, I found a typo in what you posted - "I'm seriously considering trying photos on my next grow as I want to try some more aggressive training am going to increase my light levels to increase my yields."

My belief/understanding/something that's based on a limited knowledge of plant bio - training a plant will tend to increase yield only/primarily/mainly because it spreads out the canopy, allowing the plants to absorb more light. Other than that, I don't think training a plant increases crop yield and crop quality. The underlying rationale is that light is the only means by which cannabis generates food (fertilizer ≠ food, right?). And, per the attached document, research has shown an almost liner relationship between increasing DLI and crop yield and crop quality.

LST and HST are methods of shaping plants but what about yield?

Two documents of interest. The first describes the results of different pruning methods. It's a bit of a grind but it does support the idea of pruning being the best approach to increasing yield. Topping is not discussed.

In the Frontiers paper, there's a lot of good info about light levels but it was only yesterday that I realized that "the dog hadn't barked" (from the Sherlock Holmes story).

In the paper, "CB" is the abbreviation for the "culture basin" - where they grow the plants.

The highlight on page 5 reads "The apical meristems were removed (i.e., “topped”) from the first batch of clones, 10 d after transplant, and the second batch were not topped. "

That tells us that the plants in CB1 were topped but they left the apical stem on the plants that were in CB2.

The issue? Scroll to the Results section and the first sentence reads "No CB effects were found in any leaf photosynthesis, leaf morphology, and post-harvest parameters; therefore, CB1 and CB2 data were pooled for the development of all models except secondary metabolites, which were only measured in CB1."

"No CB effects were found in…" - meaning, as best I can deduce, "there was no difference in". I think that's a valid plain language description. If so, that indicates that topping had no impact on leaf photosynthesis or morphology nor on "post-harvest parameters".

I don't have a definition for "post-harvest parameters" but I can guaran-god-damn-tee that if there had been a significant difference between topped and non-topped it would have been noted and, further, had it been noted, it would have been "a topic that requires further study".

That's not smoking gun evidence but, given that they believed it was valid to glom the results together, I think that's strong support of the argument that topping, in and of itself, doesn't increase yield.

That was a little nugget that I found yesterday (amazing what we get up to when we're sidelined with a case of the lung crud!). The big push is more light ==> more weed.

If anyone is familiar with Chandra and its demonstration the photosynthesis curve starts to roll off at 500µmols, this paper deals with that directly and in a not so subtle manner. No question about it, whoever wrote this paper…did not beat around the bush. ;-)
But does topping decrese yeld? With toping you get more buds in a flat surface and with artifical sun/light that is good to have

Allsoo for the other guy how do you know you are pushing ferts or not i have one plant that eats 200 ppms other eats 800ppm.
 
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