Relationship between chloropyll A, chlorophyll B, wavelengths and PAR values.

Educated answers preferred only please.

So I am forced to learn more about wavelengths of light deemed most useful by plants and how PAR values effect specific wavelengths during both vegetative and flowering states.

Why I want to know.

I have plants that may or may not be sick because of intense and very specific isolated wavelengths of red light specifically at 660 nm where PAR values measure around 15. The issue is only present during flower.

Here is what I know.

Chlorophyll has 2 main types classified as Chlorophyll A and Chlorophyll B. Chlorophyll A availability spikes two times across the spectrum, around 420 nm and again 670 nm. Chlorophyll B availability also spikes two times across the spectrum, around 480 nm and again at 640 nm. It is my understanding that Chlorophyll A plays a larger role in photosynthesis and outnumbers Chlorophyll B but a ratio of about 3:1.

Blue and Red Light and my questions.

Both Chlorophyll A and Chlorophyll B have two points within the spectrum where they are most available, one in the "red" spectrum and one in the "blue" spectrum. It is my understanding that plants use mostly blue light during the vegetative phase and red light during the fruit production stage. Do plants optimize their absorption of Chlorophyll A during veg at or around 420 nm and Chlorophyll B at or around 480 nm? Similarly do plants optimize their absorption of Chlorophyll A at or about 670 nm during veg and at or about 640 nm during flower? This is the conclusion I am leaning towards given lighting is so isolated, for example HID lighting and specifically HPS lighting.

Thank you for any and all educated responses, happy growing!

Damm thats a nice ass

I never understood, or even really cared about spectrum and PAR and chlorophyll, other than using either a cool white or a warm white bulb that put enough light off to grow my crop until I started looking into LEDs, I learned a little about spectrum and PAR, and chlorophyll.

I'm not sure if your question is just about chlorophyll A, B, and the wavelengths according to HID, or just in general, but this is what I have learned:

If you looked at a photosynthetic action chart, you'll see 5 main peaks, 410nm, 430nm, 455nm, 640nm, 660nm. With a little bit of used spectrum in between all those peaks.

In vegetative growing, you'll want a higher concentration in the blue, specifically from 400nm-470nm, and that being roughly 70% of your total light, then 600nm-700nm, and even less from 470nm-600nm, but with a small peak at 525nm. Then for flowering, you'll want the 400nm-470nm 20-30% of your total light, a small amount from 470nm-600nm with a peak at 525nm, then 600nm-700nm, with 2 main peaks, 660nm being be biggest, 640nm the next biggest, then 2 smaller peaks, 630nm, and 610nm, 610nm being the smallest. Overall in flowering, you'll want more 660nm than anything else.

Eraserhead said:

I never understood, or even really cared about spectrum and PAR and chlorophyll, other than using either a cool white or a warm white bulb that put enough light off to grow my crop until I started looking into LEDs, I learned a little about spectrum and PAR, and chlorophyll.

I'm not sure if your question is just about chlorophyll A, B, and the wavelengths according to HID, or just in general, but this is what I have learned:

If you looked at a photosynthetic action chart, you'll see 5 main peaks, 410nm, 430nm, 455nm, 640nm, 660nm. With a little bit of used spectrum in between all those peaks.

In vegetative growing, you'll want a higher concentration in the blue, specifically from 400nm-470nm, and that being roughly 70% of your total light, then 600nm-700nm, and even less from 470nm-600nm, but with a small peak at 525nm. Then for flowering, you'll want the 400nm-470nm 20-30% of your total light, a small amount from 470nm-600nm with a peak at 525nm, then 600nm-700nm, with 2 main peaks, 660nm being be biggest, 640nm the next biggest, then 2 smaller peaks, 630nm, and 610nm, 610nm being the smallest. Overall in flowering, you'll want more 660nm than anything else.

Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly Eraserhead, nor did I. You have identified what my strength should be... Which I believe is actually my problem lol. It seems as if there is too much 660 around 15 PAR level at 12". The blue range is 425-450 I would like it to be wider and maxes around 440 nm with a PAR level around 5.....

Too much 660nm could create some issues, the idea that "LEDs are 4Xs as efficient than HID", is from this: if you take 1 LED diode, say 455nm, it will cover roughly 447nm-463nm, or there about, that is just a "slice" of the entire light spectrum, and most individual LEDs are around 45 lumens per watt (the white LEDs are aroud 80-140 lumens per watt). Though lumens are irrelevant to plants, they will give you some idea as to their intensity. If you took a "slice" of light from an HID light in that area, you wont see 150 lumens per watt, you'll see about 10 or so.

You can't just take "slices" of just red and blue, and grow as good as HID, that's why you see (some of the) 10+ band LEDs with white included doing as good as HID. And the 2-3 band ones failing bad.

White fills in the gaps where the "slices" of LED light doesn't cover. Cool white LEDs for example are strongest from 400nm-500nm or so, and they'll fill in the gaps where the others leave off. Same goes for soft white filling in the gaps for the blue/green, green, green/yellow, and yellow range, and the warm white covering yellow, yellow/orange, orange/red and red, and some far red.

So back to the possible too much 660nm, there is a point to where the plant can't use the light anymore, and with LEDs, bleaching will occur if there is too much. The other thing that would create an issue, if there is too much 660nm, you are wasting electricity, where it could instead not be used at all, or where it is benefiting the plants using another color.

Shwagbag said:

My thoughts exactly Eraserhead, nor did I. You have identified what my strength should be... Which I believe is actually my problem lol. It seems as if there is too much 660 around 15 PAR level at 12". The blue range is 425-450 I would like it to be wider and maxes around 440 nm with a PAR level around 5.....

Click to expand...

Eraserhead said:

Too much 660nm could create some issues, the idea that "LEDs are 4Xs as efficient than HID", is from this: if you take 1 LED diode, say 455nm, it will cover roughly 447nm-463nm, or there about, that is just a "slice" of the entire light spectrum, and most individual LEDs are around 45 lumens per watt (the white LEDs are aroud 80-140 lumens per watt). Though lumens are irrelevant to plants, they will give you some idea as to their intensity. If you took a "slice" of light from an HID light in that area, you wont see 150 lumens per watt, you'll see about 10 or so.

You can't just take "slices" of just red and blue, and grow as good as HID, that's why you see (some of the) 10+ band LEDs with white included doing as good as HID. And the 2-3 band ones failing bad.

White fills in the gaps where the "slices" of LED light doesn't cover. Cool white LEDs for example are strongest from 400nm-500nm or so, and they'll fill in the gaps where the others leave off. Same goes for soft white filling in the gaps for the blue/green, green, green/yellow, and yellow range, and the warm white covering yellow, yellow/orange, orange/red and red, and some far red.

So back to the possible too much 660nm, there is a point to where the plant can't use the light anymore, and with LEDs, bleaching will occur if there is too much. The other thing that would create an issue, if there is too much 660nm, you are wasting electricity, where it could instead not be used at all, or where it is benefiting the plants using another color.

Click to expand...

Exactly my thoughts, thank you..... Have you ever changed the diodes on a unit? I kind of want to change this light to see if I can remove some red, add more blue, and perhaps some orange. I would not know where to begin to get parts for these lights though.

I've taken LED panels apart before, just to see what's inside, but never removed any diodes. It'd be cool if they were like little exchangeable plug-in type lights to where we can switch them out in a matter of seconds... I'd be all over that.

DIY LEDs seem easy enough for those that can comprehend the basics on how electricity works and soldering. I'm researching it all now before I waste a bunch of money with too much trial and error.

Shwagbag said:

Exactly my thoughts, thank you..... Have you ever changed the diodes on a unit? I kind of want to change this light to see if I can remove some red, add more blue, and perhaps some orange. I would not know where to begin to get parts for these lights though.

Click to expand...

Eraserhead said:

I've taken LED panels apart before, just to see what's inside, but never removed any diodes. It'd be cool if they were like little exchangeable plug-in type lights to where we can switch them out in a matter of seconds... I'd be all over that.

DIY LEDs seem easy enough for those that can comprehend the basics on how electricity works and soldering. I'm researching it all now before I waste a bunch of money with too much trial and error.

Click to expand...

I wish I would have waited just a year.... LED's are about to come around.

Yeah, I'm just as of recent getting decent results. Yet to hit a gram per watt, but I'm getting close.

Mid 2011 is when they really started to get better. Anything prior, I wouldn't run any of those LEDs again.

I can't wait to see what 2012 has to offer for LEDs.

Shwagbag said:

I wish I would have waited just a year.... LED's are about to come around.

Click to expand...

Eraserhead said:

Yeah, I'm just as of recent getting decent results. Yet to hit a gram per watt, but I'm getting close.

Mid 2011 is when they really started to get better. Anything prior, I wouldn't run any of those LEDs again.

I can't wait to see what 2012 has to offer for LEDs.

Click to expand...

It will be good, unfortunately my stupid ass invested 2k in these things. I should be running 2 raptors with digital 1000 ballasts lol.