Rand Paul Wins!!!

Parker

Well-Known Member
Economics isn't a science, if it were there could be no bubbles or misappropriation of funds. Economics is the psychological study of human nature, why do people buy and sell? What do they do when confronted with fiscal insolvency, a large sum of money etc etc etc.

MOST economists did not see shit coming, I don't even understand how you come up with that, most economists were completely blind to the crash of 08. Find me proof of your statement and I will believe it, but the fact is 99% of economists didn't see the bubble and still think we are recovering.

I work on PROOF, you can say whatever you want, but unless you provide some kind of PROOF it is purely story telling on your part. I provide PROOF of my statements, like the fed creates money, yet you still won't accept facts so it really makes no difference what the truth is, becasue you are blind to it.

Nothing will improve until the bad debt is purged from the system, businesses are forced to deal with their own problems, people are kicked out of their homes etc etc etc. The USA can print as much money as it wants, it will not improve anything.

Where does the money for unemployment come from?
The Austrian School of Economics saw it fairly early. In the summer of 2002 Ron Paul, a follower of Austrian Economics, tried to stop it with the Free Housing Market Enhancement Act
http://www.house.gov/paul/congrec/congrec2002/cr071602.htm

"One of the major government privileges granted these GSEs is a line of credit to the United States Treasury. According to some estimates, the line of credit may be worth over $2 billion. This explicit promise by the Treasury to bail out these GSEs in times of economic difficulty helps them attract investors who are willing to settle for lower yields than they would demand in the absence of the subsidy. Thus, the line of credit distorts the allocation of capital. More importantly, the line of credit is a promise on behalf of the government to engage in a massive unconstitutional and immoral income transfer from working Americans to holders of GSE debt.
The Free Housing Market Enhancement Act also repeals the explicit grant of legal authority given to the Federal Reserve to purchase the debt of housing-related GSEs. GSEs are the only institutions besides the United States Treasury granted explicit statutory authority to monetize their debt through the Federal Reserve. This provision gives the GSEs a source of liquidity unavailable to their competitors."

 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Did you know that the Federal reserve was a bank? And here you thought what exactly? The Fed is a bank therefore it can buy treasuries Directly from one of the few Primary Dealers whenever they have an auction. But I guess you are correct, the Fed isn't buying them from the treasury directly, they are buying them directly from the Primary dealers, who are buying them direct from the treasury. So the dealers skim off a commission is all. They call this open market operations. Just so you know no bank can buy treasuries, they MUST go through primary dealers.
The Fed is a Quasi government regulator that is paid for by banks, exactly what I have always said that it is. They cannot purchase from the treasury, which is a very important part, because if there are no banks that want to buy these worthless things you said they were, nobody would buy them.

Buying Directly From the U.S. Treasury

To buy Treasury bills directly from us, you must have an account in either TreasuryDirect or Legacy Treasury Direct.
Set Up a Treasury Securities Account

To open an account in TreasuryDirect, go to "Open An Account" and supply the requested information. Effective April 2009, TreasuryDirect permits accounts for both individuals and various types of entities including trusts, estates, corporations, partnerships, etc. See Learn More about Entity Accounts for full information on the new registration types.
To open an account in Legacy Treasury Direct, complete and submit the paper form "New Account Request" (PD F 5182). (Download or order the form.) Mail your completed form to the appropriate Treasury Retail Securities Site.
I don't think you are right that only those banks can buy treasuries directly from the Fed as this was on the Treasury website.

exports are down, that means the USA cannot pay for the things it buys. Ever heard of a trade imbalance? Your graph proves my point better than it proves yours.
Actually no, you said:
Looks to me like government is spending like crazy, yet we are in negative growth territory.
And I was pointing out that for almost a year government spending has been declining.

Why don't you just admit that you cannot figure out the question? Do you know when you will die? Do you know exactly how much money you will need to survive your golden years so that the day you die is also the day your bank account goes to zero? Don't be an imbecile, just answer the question. What if she lives for 30 more years instead of 15? looks like she will be homeless and eating cat food for the last 15 years eh? What if some medical emergency happens and its going to cost $300,000, what will she do then, she will have to commit suicide 6 years early , is this what you advocate for the retired people who live in the USA?
-Nope, but you make sure you have enough for the amount you have saved. You were the one that came up with your 50k a month, not me.

-Nope, unless she spent more than she had, a lot of the thought to put into retiring is thinking about how much money you need to live, there are tons of information out there showing the breakdown of benefits you get and costs to think of.

-So she lives to be 95, congrats to her. Doesn't change if you have 750,000 in the bank you are getting 22.5k in interest a year, so only withdrawing 27.5 for your magic 50k number (which means she can live a lifestyle about the same as someone who makes 100k a year that is working). And that means that money will be there for a looong time. And if she starts to blow through it she can just downgrade and get a smaller apartment, or many other things to make sure it doesn't run out because she did not save enough for the life she wanted.

-Medicare

-nope

Lets try this one more time. How much cash in the bank at the high rate of 2% earnings will a retired person need to ensure they can sustain their lifestyle forever? I want a single number from you, not some formula trying to figure out how much you need to save each year. or how much compounded interest it will take or what kind of bond she should have bought in 1982, I want a fucking whole number and that is to illustrate to you how much money we are talking about here.
I did that every time, I just don't think you understood I was showing you how I arrived at those numbers.

You need to give me their lifestyle before I can answer that though right? I at least had your 50k to go off of last time. That was 750k saved up will give you over 50k a year. So if you give me the amount of time she lives that you want to see and the amount of money she wants to have per month/year I am all over it.

just so you know, banks aren't offering 3% interest on savings accounts, not even to the big savers. here is a list of the top interest bearing accounts you can get.
http://www.money-rates.com/savings.htm
Good website. Once we are past this the rates will go back up, but yes you are right it looks like 2% is all they are having to offer atm.

Ok so thanks for reiterating my point for me. the bank is able to earn 3.25% for borrowing from the Government and lending to the FHA. So now you know and you helped prove my point.
I was just trying to help you out with the rates you should be looking at. This is a good deal for banks no question, but unfortunantly there is little that I can show you about the amount of transactions happening at the discount window, but that borrowing is for troubled banks, it is not good for them to borrow from the fed because they will get cut off.

But whatever, I won't expect you to just believe that, I am just saying that there is not really a way to show how little of an issue this is.

Obviously you did not read up on the subject.
Sure I did, I just think what the lady said is stupid. Why would you need to have a reserve requirement on a form of money? A FHA bond would not need to have a reserve requirement on it, because it is money.

ok so I already PROVED you can't beat 3% by keeping money in the bank, people keep money in the bank to facilitate ease of transactions and the fact that its hard as hell to do many of lifes transactions without one.
During this recession sure, but do you live in a vacuum? You should look at where rates are under normal circumstances, they are around inflationary levels. It just so happens that we have very very (and for some quarters) negative inflation, so they don't need to be as high to beat inflation.

Online Banking makes things much easier than having to take cash and get a Money order to pay the monthly bills. Writing a check is pretty easy except if you don't have a bank account. Lets not even start to talk about how many employers use direct deposit and getting your pay CHECK is difficult and poses all sorts of problems in our modern age. No the interest rate most people are getting is little to none, and usually even less once you take out all the hidden fees and ATM fees you might have paid over the year. We don't put money in checking and savings accounts hoping it will grow with compound interest, we do it for the convenience. 28 years ago you could actually earn enough money on your deposit and this was very good for the aged among us living on fixed incomes. You didn't need a small fortune to get some benefit.
Agreed.

Ok so you just said that old people should save their money for retirement then you say the exact opposite and say it is stupid for people to save. So which one is it? Or do you just enjoy being wishy washy? Or is it that your not really sure what it is your trying to say?

What? First, 3% of a million is $30,000, and it is a wash with inflation. So if someone was stupid enough to keep 1 million dollars in a bank for 30 years, they must have inherited that money because nobody slow enough to do that would be able to earn that much in the first place (well unless they got very lucky). I mean if nothing else they could have rolled that into a bond in the 80's when they were paying 13+% interest.
in 1980 the dow was at 870, today it is just under 10k. Why would you be ok with earning 3% a year with the kind of growth that we have experienced over the last 30 years? Keeping your money in a savings account is safe and good when your retired for the amounts you need per year (maybe keep the bulk in some bonds, but no stocks). You invest to grow your money while you are saving and as you need it you move it to safe areas so you know it will not decrease because you now need to use it.

When yield on treasuries go up, you are losing money on the ones you own, its not a good thing when treasuries are up. Increasing treasury Yields means the government is having a hard time selling its securities and must raise the interest rate to entice others to buy.
Treasuries are the most liquid asset next to cash. They trade in huge volumes on the market, so it has always been easy to move out and into them on the secondary market.

In good times the government should not be selling treasuries either, because they should have cut their spending. And in bad times they should have the money already in place to get shit done. I am not a fan of deficit spending, but do know the value of government spedning in recessions.

So only big names can call things correctly or have any knowledge? really? So you personally aren't a big name, does that mean everything you say must be false, lies, uninformed? I mean after all "hanimal" is a nobody just like thebuttonpusher, does that mean neither of us has any clue just because we aren't celebrated names or have high office?
Nope youre right I was being a dick, I'm sorry.

If you only listen to the big named people its no wonder you are lost in this vast ocean. Irving Fisher was a big name in economics, but if you listened to his advice you were flat broke by 1933 just like he was.
Nah man I am doing pretty well. But you should know that pre 1933, there was very little understood about the overall economy. That was how macro economics became 'keyensian' economics, was that they mostly just examined firms and how efficient they were. Not how everyone fighting for the same resources instead of collaborating and working together.

But alas I see the humor in pointing out that Brad Pitts Characters name in the Movie "FightClub" is also Tyler Durden, how clever.
I actually thought that it was pretty clever on their end. Wasn't the whole point that they were trying to blow up all the banks in that movie.
 

thebuttonpusher

New Member
So basically the point of the old retired lady is that WE WILL ALL have to save a small fortune (at 2% max its going to take 2.5 million dollars in a savings account to earn enough interest to live off of) to be able to have enough to live when we retire. I don't know about you, but I am not even close to having 2.5 mill and retirement isn't really that far off. Social security cannot pay for the cost of living for a senior, not even close unless you live in poverty. And most likely in 25 years when i retire there will probably not even be a SS programIf interest rates were 10% you would only need half a mill in the bank to make a decent living. I am suspect of the "Official" government numbers for such things as jobs, welfare, inflation, Cost of Living, deficit, military spending. Inflation may only be 3%, but that hardly explains the 35% increase in food prices, or the 100% increase in oil prices in the last year. You can't chalk it all up to supply and demand.

I don't think treasuries are really all that liquid, first of all you have to hold them for a certain amount of time before they mature. Then there is that pesky chore of taking it down to the bank and selling it. If its a savings bond, well that isn't liquid at all really, it has your name printed on it so only you can sell it, then you have to hold most of them for at least a year before you can do anything with them. Hypothetically if you were dropped into the middle of the rain forest you would have a hell of a time buying anything with a US 3 year Bond, believe me. I would probably rather have gold or silver if I were to be dropped into some remote locale, its universally accepted everywhere you go and the exchange rates are updated every minute.

I kind of agree that all the banks should just blow up. We would be better off in the long run.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Inflation may only be 3%, but that hardly explains the 35% increase in food prices, or the 100% increase in oil prices in the last year. You can't chalk it all up to supply and demand.
I know this sucks, most of the increase in food is due to gas prices. The average distance food travels to your fork is something like 1500 miles. This is another large reason to get off of oil as a country. I am a really big fan of farming co-ops because of this, there is a good book (even if it is fluffy in areas) called deep economy by Bill McKibben. Actually just look into co-ops, the book is kind of a waste of time now that I think more about what some of the things he was saying.


Edit: Adding video
Just found this and it is very pertinent to this and explains the food and oil jumps and overall inflation well.
[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/4IJlD7KWHxw&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/4IJlD7KWHxw&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]

So I am putting some time into this problem, because I understand the huge issue retirement is, I am actually helping out my dad who just retired to figure out how much he has to live on so that he doesn't go too crazy. And figure the more often I do these kinds of things the better at it I will get. So here it goes.
Figure 1 &#8211; Nominal Interest Rates, Real Interest Rates, and Inflation Rates, 1959&#8211;2008

Note :&#8195;&#8194;The nominal interest rate shown here is the rate on US government five-year bonds. The inflation rate represents annual growth in the consumer price index. The real interest rate is the difference between the nominal rate and the inflation rate.
Source : Graph prepared by the author, using data obtained from the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis.
With the five year bonds usually a decent amount above inflation rates (Except for recessions where they have such a high demand that they drop slightly below but that is short term and the amount above during the normal times more than makes up for it), we won't need to worry about inflation after you retire in 25 years because the yields on the majority of the unused portion of your money will at least keep up with inflation for the long term. But we need to find it for before you retire.

The rule of thumb is that you need about 75% of what you earn while working for retirement, I bumped it up to 80%. We can do 100% too if you want, but most retirees don't have the same costs (gas, clothes, mortgages, family costs, ect is all less when you get older is why I stuck with 80%).

So if we figure $50,000 for 30 years of retirement = $1,500,000 needed to spent in retirement (in today's dollars). Shame it is not this easy eh.

So with retirement in 25 years (I am going to assume nothing is saved yet, but it would greatly change things if you do have savings), the future value of $50k is $92,697 (basically the amount of goods today $50k will buy is approx $92697 in 2035, at 2.5% inflation). If you look at the second chart on amount used it shows how much is the actual amount with compounded inflation.

So back to excel...

OK so after messing around with this for the last 3 hours, I think that I have it all worked out. I got you to 95 (assuming you are 40 now). This is all hypothetical of course, and I am not trying to control anyone, but just love numbers and wanted the challenge of figuring this out.

So assuming you have zero savings at age of 40, and wish to spend 80% of your income of $50,000 today (using the old lady example, I can change numbers easily if you want now that I have the excel file done). I used a steady inflation rate of 2.5% a year when figuring amount you earn and the amount used in retirement.

If you save 25% of your income with a average of 10% interest gained (high number, but at 40 there are about 15 years of savings missing so it has to be) for 15 years, and 30% for the last 10 years, you should have enough to easily get you to 95 years living pretty much the same lifestyle you are now (or the lady at 50k a year is anyway).


For the savings I have the bulk (80%) invested in high quality bonds that are about 2.5% above inflation rate, and 20% in a savings account which is about .oo5 above inflation. I did not add in inflation to those numbers because I figured it into the amount of money you need to spend being where the inflation actually is.



I don't think treasuries are really all that liquid, first of all you have to hold them for a certain amount of time before they mature. Then there is that pesky chore of taking it down to the bank and selling it.
http://www.sifma.net/story.asp?id=1209
There are about 500 billion traded in us treasuries a day (may be slightly different, but still shows the size of this market). You don't need to wait for them to mature, because banks and companies use these and commercial paper as assets instead of cash. If you use a internet broker you can trade them in moments just like a regular stock.

But also if you are using them for retirement the 5 years bonds work great because you can keep them in a safe deposit box and know they are there and will mature for you instead of just trading on the market dealing with fluctuations of daily trading. And the interest rates are great with the different maturities, because they average out the future trend among the dates, so that way you are not losing out if you buy a short term bond vs long term where they give a slight bit more to entice the larger buyers.

Hypothetically if you were dropped into the middle of the rain forest you would have a hell of a time buying anything with a US 3 year Bond, believe me. I would probably rather have gold or silver if I were to be dropped into some remote locale, its universally accepted everywhere you go and the exchange rates are updated every minute.
You are of course right with this, it definintly is not considered a currency, but it is the most liquid of all non currency assets. It is considered M2 while currency is M1, but assets like stocks are considered less liquid than treasuries though.

I kind of agree that all the banks should just blow up. We would be better off in the long run.
There is something to be said about this. Because if we could wipe out all records and start from scratch it would be wonderful. I would say that we would need the banks to still be there for the future, but one big wipe of memory would be fantastic.

I think that it was Benjamin Franklin who tried to get into the constitution that when we die we are not allowed to pass on our assets to our families. That way everyone who starts out has to make their own way, wealthy families would of course still have a huge advantage, but it would almost negate the need for taxes, because when people die, their goods go to the government and essentially be a lifetime tax when you would not miss it.

I am not sure how well it would work, but it is pretty interesting.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Thats good and all, and I like your schedule and everything, but what happens if the government understates the inflation numbers? What if "official" inflation is at 3%, but REAL inflation is at 12%. FWIW It is impossible to make 10% gains consistently in the market, if you could, 1 dollar invested at 10% over 250 years would be more than the worlds entire GDP. Its entirely possible to make 10% every year for a decade or possibly two, but more than that is almost unheard of. Forget averaging returns also, doesn't work.

Ben Franklin said this in a letter to Robert Morris in 1783:

"All the property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation
of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his
natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all
Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the
Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore
by other laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick
shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society
on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can
have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his
Club towards the Support of it."

Ben was arguing that those people who have so much in abundance above and beyond what one needs should give to the well being of his fellow man. The key word is Superfluous. In no way was he condoning the Federal Government owning land or taking property from others when they died. When Ben talks about the public he does not mean government, he means the PEOPLE!

By your definition The Federal Government would own all assets in 3 Generations time, that would be Communism wouldn't it? I Highly doubt Ben Franklin was a Communist. Its just common sense bro.

Food for thought. Having visited over 20 different countries (Middle East, Far east, South America and Europe) I found that every one of them will accept American dollars, just like all of them speak english. This was before the Euro. In Zimbabwe they don't take Zimbabwean dollars for payment, they only accept US Dollars, or Gold and Silver.

Some bonds cannot be sold until at least 1 year has lapsed, EE Bonds are that way and they are one of the most popular sold.

FWIW The largest holder of US Debt is NOT China, china is #4 after Japan. The largest 2 holders of US Debt is #2 , "Others" at 1.1 trillion dollars worth. and NUMBER UNO? the federal reserve with $5.127 trillion, more than the next 20 combined. Don't you just love that we pay all that interest to the Fed, and the Fed is just really all the big banks that we bailed out? The Fox guarding the henhouse indeed.

Do you really save 25% of your pre tax income? What is the US average? 3% according to US Govt( http://www.bea.gov/briefrm/saving.htm ) , which is the figure YOU MUST USE since you are using all of your other metrics based off Government. So how do your tables look now? No so good huh? This is what you can expect for the vast majority of people. And then there is this which claims the savings rate is zero http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/Extra/USSavingsRateFallsToZero.aspx

It was always planned this way. 20% of people live under their means and save for the future, the other 80% live paycheck to paycheck in up to their eyeballs in debt. But look at peoples lifestyles, going to Vegas 4 or 5 times a year, luxury cruises every year, a BMW or Merc in the driveway, big motor homes, 2000 sq feet per person occupancy homes. Harley Motorcycles that get driven 5 times a year. 4 car garages and swimming pools in the back yard. And all this from people who make less than 100K a year. All they had to do was promise instant gratification with a credit card or home equity loan, then when things get real bad and the homeowner can no longer pay the banks will own it all for nothing.They never taught finance or monetary theory in high school, even though it is probably one of the most influential things to ever happen...debt servitude. Most people would probably be happier pursuing their own interests yet because of the debt they carry they are forced into employment they may not care for just to pay the bills. Thats just my view anyway
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
First of all this video incorrectly defines inflation and second of all the Median CPI is just a measure of inflation in all the goods you DONT NEED!! Food and Energy you NEED to live, you'll make it without the iPod. Its just another sham to get people to believe the propaganda they continually spew.

[youtube]4IJlD7KWHxw[/youtube]

Thanks for the link though, it was funny to watch them dumb it down so that the 80% can get what they are trying to convey.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Good to see you back in your own skin.
Thats good and all, and I like your schedule and everything, but what happens if the government understates the inflation numbers? What if "official" inflation is at 3%, but REAL inflation is at 12%.
Thank you it did take some time.

If inflation is higher, banks will increase their rates, it is just how it works. Inflation and rates move together because why would i be willing to put my money in a bank that is not going to outpace it. Look at the mega inflation rates under Regan, the bonds where higher and the same with the bank accounts and loans.

Oil and food prices are subject to large fluctuations up and down, if not we would be having some serious deflation over the last few years as gas has dropped from over 4 to $2.70.

FWIW It is impossible to make 10% gains consistently in the market, if you could, 1 dollar invested at 10% over 250 years would be more than the worlds entire GDP. Its entirely possible to make 10% every year for a decade or possibly two, but more than that is almost unheard of. Forget averaging returns also, doesn't work.
It really is not that hard, in fact using a 401k, it gets there pretty fast with the tax benefits and company matches.

And are you meaning by averaging the dow? Because since the 80's it is well above 10% increase year over year.

Ben Franklin said this in a letter to Robert Morris in 1783:

"All the property that is necessary to a Man, for the Conservation
of the Individual and the Propagation of the Species, is his
natural Right, which none can justly deprive him of: But all
Property superfluous to such purposes is the Property of the
Publick, who, by their Laws, have created it, and who may therefore
by other laws dispose of it, whenever the Welfare of the Publick
shall demand such Disposition. He that does not like civil Society
on these Terms, let him retire and live among Savages. He can
have no right to the benefits of Society, who will not pay his
Club towards the Support of it."

Ben was arguing that those people who have so much in abundance above and beyond what one needs should give to the well being of his fellow man. The key word is Superfluous. In no way was he condoning the Federal Government owning land or taking property from others when they died. When Ben talks about the public he does not mean government, he means the PEOPLE!

By your definition The Federal Government would own all assets in 3 Generations time, that would be Communism wouldn't it? I Highly doubt Ben Franklin was a Communist. Its just common sense bro.
Yeah that is why I said interesting idea but I am not sure if it would work. Good backround on that though. It has been years since I read about that though and the blowing up bank idea was pretty much what jogged the memory.

Food for thought. Having visited over 20 different countries (Middle East, Far east, South America and Europe) I found that every one of them will accept American dollars, just like all of them speak english. This was before the Euro. In Zimbabwe they don't take Zimbabwean dollars for payment, they only accept US Dollars, or Gold and Silver.
It is damn good to be an American.

Some bonds cannot be sold until at least 1 year has lapsed, EE Bonds are that way and they are one of the most popular sold.
For sure it depends on the type of bond your buying. The Treasuries are the ones that I said are most liquid, nothing else is traded like they are nor as liquid minus currency.

FWIW The largest holder of US Debt is NOT China, china is #4 after Japan. The largest 2 holders of US Debt is #2 , "Others" at 1.1 trillion dollars worth. and NUMBER UNO? the federal reserve with $5.127 trillion, more than the next 20 combined. Don't you just love that we pay all that interest to the Fed, and the Fed is just really all the big banks that we bailed out? The Fox guarding the henhouse indeed.
Well then, what happens to all the money the Fed has over at the end of the year?

I would rather have the Fed as number 1 on that list since they pay back everything over their costs to the treasury every year. And the whole 20x the next biggest countries doesn't scare me when you start to look at how large of an economy we are. The fed holds about what 20% of all outstanding treasuries, and our economy is about 20% of the world economy? Just makes sense that they would be about the same.

Do you really save 25% of your pre tax income? What is the US average? 3% according to US Govt( http://www.bea.gov/briefrm/saving.htm ) , which is the figure YOU MUST USE since you are using all of your other metrics based off Government. So how do your tables look now? No so good huh? This is what you can expect for the vast majority of people. And then there is this which claims the savings rate is zero http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com...llsToZero.aspx
Yeah but you were asking a question based off the fact that one would want to save. The average american is not saving true, but is that a good reason to not figure out the amount you would need to live the way you wished to? Now if you wish we could find a government article about how much you should save, that may be a better metric to go off of to check if they are accurate. We are both thirty and saving about 15% for the last couple years because that is where we will want to be when we retire.

It was always planned this way. 20% of people live under their means and save for the future, the other 80% live paycheck to paycheck in up to their eyeballs in debt. But look at peoples lifestyles, going to Vegas 4 or 5 times a year, luxury cruises every year, a BMW or Merc in the driveway, big motor homes, 2000 sq feet per person occupancy homes. Harley Motorcycles that get driven 5 times a year. 4 car garages and swimming pools in the back yard. And all this from people who make less than 100K a year. All they had to do was promise instant gratification with a credit card or home equity loan, then when things get real bad and the homeowner can no longer pay the banks will own it all for nothing.They never taught finance or monetary theory in high school, even though it is probably one of the most influential things to ever happen...debt servitude. Most people would probably be happier pursuing their own interests yet because of the debt they carry they are forced into employment they may not care for just to pay the bills. Thats just my view anyway
Completely agree (minus it was planned this way and forced part). I think economics (obviously right) is one of the most key things that we can teach our population. Even if they don't get into the technical aspect of it (which is a shame due to the math element also being needed in almost every aspect of life) it is extremely useful. It is sad that there is not a party that truly understands economics, because they are pretty much flying blind.

And the economists in the Fed only have so much that they can do to help them make better decisions due to all the economic misunderstandings that are out there.

First of all this video incorrectly defines inflation and second of all the Median CPI is just a measure of inflation in all the goods you DONT NEED!! Food and Energy you NEED to live, you'll make it without the iPod. Its just another sham to get people to believe the propaganda they continually spew.
Thanks for the link though, it was funny to watch them dumb it down so that the 80% can get what they are trying to convey.
Yeah it is sad that we need flash cards of bees to get a point across.

Are you talking about the general increase in prices being incorrect?

Few hours later edit:------------------------------------------------------


So I have been thinking about why they do remove oil and food from the inflation figure and wondering if there is a better reasoning than what they gave. And think I can do better than they did.

If you are trying to examine inflation as a business, you have three main measures food, oil and cpi. Unless you are a business dealing in produce, food increases won't effect your bottom line too much, but gas would and so would the regular item inflation prices.

So if I am trying to figure out how much my costs of production are going to be, I may not want oil in the mix,and if I did I would examine it separately and then add it in due to the high volatility. That way I know that the overall inflationary prices would be for my purchases and I can worst case scenario oil prices, because with tech advances and different modes of transport (trains vs trucks) I would have many much better options to use to figure out the best way for my company to move forward.

Oil prices not in the figure won't effect the CPI much, because goods and services will already reflect the increase in the gas prices.

I think that may be a much better reason for the different prices (well at least when explaining to someone that can understand without cartoons lol).
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Most gas prices are absorbed by business until they have shown a trend, only then do prices rise to reflect the greater expense. In that case the Median CPI is lagging behind true inflation by a year or more. The Fed has limited power in controlling how low interest rates can go, if no one buys treasuries they MUST raise rates or the country will default. In the Reagan years the president told Paul Volcker to raise the interest rates on purpose, to stop inflation that Carter had helped to create and get us out of stagflation. It worked!! But it was also the beginning of HUGE deficits as the next 4 administrations each outspent the last. We could do it when Reagan was pres because the USA was #1 creditor nation, now we are #1 debtor nation. We owe everyone, especially the Fed.
The only way 10% gains are possible in the market over the long term are if you call every bottom and top in every individual stock correctly, no one has ever done this , EVER!!! You might get lucky here and there but you certainly cannot call them all. Again you cannot average out the market and say "well the market was at 3000 in 1971 and now its at 10,000 therefore a 333% increase". If you just let your money sit and just played the averages, you lost the majority of your money at each market crash, and then take inflation into account and the inflation tax, well then you actually have probably lost most of it. 10% is not sustainable over the long long run. Can someone make 100% in 3 months? Sure they can if they pick the exact right stock and make their trades at the exact right time, but the law of large numbers and averages says this is not sustainable over the long term. You only have to make one or 2 bad picks to ruin yourself. Ask my Dad, he was up 780k but decided to take more risk and bought a bunch of Enron stock becasue his financial adviser told him it was a hot stock. guess what? lost half his money. No one knew that Enron was hiding all their debt with immoral accounting practices until one day and then it just blew up and all trading in the stock was halted, ensuring all the regular stock holders got completely fucked as did the Employees. all the while the Executives made BIG BANK.

As far as teaching people finance and economics, I doubt it will help much as they have complicated the system greatly, to a degree that it takes years and years of training just to understand what all the terms they bandy about actually mean. 1 in a 100,000 understand what Quantitative Easing is or FOMC.

Read page 34 of this http://www.federalreserve.gov/pf/pdf/pf_complete.pdf its the Federal Reserves its the book they publish that explains what they do. from the fed itself bro, http://www.federalreserve.gov/pf/pf.htm

It clearly states that the federal reserves balance GROWS every time the treasury withdraws money. You would think their balance would get less and less, common sense tells you that when you take something out of something else the original is now smaller, but in this case the balance gets ever larger. Why? Because the treasury does not have an actual account at the fed, they only have a checkbook from which unlimited money pours.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Most gas prices are absorbed by business until they have shown a trend, only then do prices rise to reflect the greater expense. In that case the Median CPI is lagging behind true inflation by a year or more.
But I am talking about forecasting for your business. You would not want oil and gas to screw up your estimates on everything because there is no general trend for gas prices because they jump around so much, while prices are a much more steady increase.

The Fed has limited power in controlling how low interest rates can go, if no one buys treasuries they MUST raise rates or the country will default. In the Reagan years the president told Paul Volcker to raise the interest rates on purpose, to stop inflation that Carter had helped to create and get us out of stagflation. It worked!! But it was also the beginning of HUGE deficits as the next 4 administrations each outspent the last. We could do it when Reagan was pres because the USA was #1 creditor nation, now we are #1 debtor nation. We owe everyone, especially the Fed.
Really the Fed cannot force interest rates, what they try to do is target them with adding more money to banks (buying securities --> more bank reserves to lend ---> lower interest rates to entice customers to borrow).

The treasury is a different story though. If the politicians wish they can increase their rates to get people to purchase the bills, it has nothing to do with the Fed. This is why I do not want the government to fully get their hands on the money. Because if they do they can decide to do shit that they do not fully understand the consequences, especially because they will just want to do it to get votes.

If the fed is trying to sell their treasuries (ones they had already bought off the market in the past) it is to pull money out of the system and increase interest rates by making it more expensive to get a loan. They have no control over the interest rates attached to those securities though.

1. Fed sells treasuries, which reduces the banks reserves.

2. They increase rates on the remaining reserves because they have less supply to meet demand and force them to bid against eachother.

3. This decreases business borrowing forcing business to contract.

4. This causes unemployment to rise, which leads to less consumption.

5. So you end up with a retraction in GDP due to lowered investment and consumption, but you get the deflation. Even if at a high cost.

The only way 10% gains are possible in the market over the long term are if you call every bottom and top in every individual stock correctly, no one has ever done this , EVER!!! You might get lucky here and there but you certainly cannot call them all. Again you cannot average out the market and say "well the market was at 3000 in 1971 and now its at 10,000 therefore a 333% increase". If you just let your money sit and just played the averages, you lost the majority of your money at each market crash, and then take inflation into account and the inflation tax, well then you actually have probably lost most of it. 10% is not sustainable over the long long run. Can someone make 100% in 3 months? Sure they can if they pick the exact right stock and make their trades at the exact right time, but the law of large numbers and averages says this is not sustainable over the long term. You only have to make one or 2 bad picks to ruin yourself. Ask my Dad, he was up 780k but decided to take more risk and bought a bunch of Enron stock becasue his financial adviser told him it was a hot stock. guess what? lost half his money. No one knew that Enron was hiding all their debt with immoral accounting practices until one day and then it just blew up and all trading in the stock was halted, ensuring all the regular stock holders got completely fucked as did the Employees. all the while the Executives made BIG BANK.
I am sorry to hear about that with your dad, that is sick.

But I am going to disagree about 10% return being hard to obtain over a large amount of time. I will do some work and try to figure this out scientifically though and come back to it.

As far as teaching people finance and economics, I doubt it will help much as they have complicated the system greatly, to a degree that it takes years and years of training just to understand what all the terms they bandy about actually mean. 1 in a 100,000 understand what Quantitative Easing is or FOMC.
When you get deeper into it, yeah it is pretty complex. But the initially it is pretty cake. With just a few graphs you can pretty much explain everything you really need to understand the basics.

Read page 34 of this http://www.federalreserve.gov/pf/pdf/pf_complete.pdf its the Federal Reserves its the book they publish that explains what they do. from the fed itself bro, http://www.federalreserve.gov/pf/pf.htm

It clearly states that the federal reserves balance GROWS every time the treasury withdraws money. You would think their balance would get less and less, common sense tells you that when you take something out of something else the original is now smaller, but in this case the balance gets ever larger. Why? Because the treasury does not have an actual account at the fed, they only have a checkbook from which unlimited money pours.
I think that you read it wrong, I will color coordinate the important points together:
Table 3.2
Consolidated balance sheet of the Federal Reserve Banks,
December 31, 2004
Millions of dollars

Assets

Securities 717,819
Repurchase agreements 33,000
Loans 43
Float 927
All other assets 56,130

Liabilities

Federal Reserve notes 719,436
Reverse repurchase agreements 30,783
Balance, U.S. Treasury account 5,912
Other liabilities and capital 27,745
Balances, all depository institutions 24,043

Another important factor is the balance in the U.S. Treasury&#8217;s account at
the Federal Reserve.
The Treasury draws on this account to make payments
by check or direct deposit for all types of federal spending. When
these payments clear, the Treasury&#8217;s account is reduced
and the account of
the depository institution for the person or entity that receives the funds is
increased.


The Treasury is not a depository institution, so a payment by
the Treasury to the public (for example, a Social Security payment) raises
the volume of Federal Reserve balances available to depository institutions.

Movements in the Treasury&#8217;s balance at the Federal Reserve tend to be less
predictable following corporate and individual tax dates, especially in the
So for accounting one side of the balance sheet (assets) MUST equal the other side (Liabilities). So if the Treasury writes a check their balance drops, so liabilities decrease (assets > liabilities). But the check goes to a bank, and their account increases and the Fed's liabilities are brought back up (liabilities = assets). So the change in the Fed's liabilities is nothing.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
I think that you read it wrong, I will color coordinate the important points together:
So for accounting one side of the balance sheet (assets) MUST equal the other side (Liabilities). So if the Treasury writes a check their balance drops, so liabilities decrease (assets > liabilities). But the check goes to a bank, and their account increases and the Fed's liabilities are brought back up (liabilities = assets). So the change in the Fed's liabilities is nothing.
Who is the Governments bank?
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Who is the Governments bank?
Das Fed.

But it says "A" bank. The check needs to be deposited somewhere, doesn't mean it is the Fed that receives the check, it is the person who got the government payment account that gets the funds and that is the liability to the fed that is increased.

lol I really don't think they understand people read their shit and that they need to be far more clear and most these issues would clear up.
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
I will read through those, I have a couple exams today so it will have to wait. But one thing to remember is that when economists talk they usually are not thinking about what the average conspiracy theorist is going to manipulate what they are saying when they do.

We usually talk about money creation we just mention the reserve increase as the main cause because it is really the only part we can affect. The person has to take out a loan and spend that money for the final part of the money creation to start.

They don't realize that when they just talk like we do in class or to another economist the people that we are talking to may not understand it and think that the Fed literally creates money, or that the Fed buys up treasuries directly from the treasury to monetize debt, all of these things are misinterpretations of what is actually happening. Nor are most practices with the art of cut and paste quote manipulation, and think that the five or six paragraphs are all going to be read, and not just the one summarizing everything which can be taken out of context.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
The fed and commercial banks create money from nothing, its not misinterpreted.

FYI the Deutsche Bundesbank operates exactly like the fed, in fact our fed was designed after the European model by Paul Warburg. You know Paul Warburg right? he was called Daddy Warbucks, you might have heard of him if you ever saw a movie/play called "Annie".
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Yeah I read that on that website you posted, and the JP morgan guy is the monopoly man. It may be that I am a little drunk at the moment, so I apologize, because this is not cool. So I am sorry, but I still think it is funny at the moment.

But I kind of feel like this:
[youtube]<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/e1fKzw05Q5A&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/e1fKzw05Q5A&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Because of the simple fact that if there are no customers wanting loans, what effect would that open market operations (of a purchase) do to overall money supply?

I will apologize tomorrow, Because I do think you are very intelligent and know a great deal about the economic events over the last couple hundred years. I just think that you should open up to the way you have examined everything that you have seen. And that if you tried, I have zero doubt that you would see what it is I (and economists) am talking about.

And if that was to happen I would be able to have you grill me with all of the questions that you have ever really seen raised about the Fed, and it would help me by having to learn if it is indeed true.


You poke holes in what I am saying so very well, forcing me to scramble to try to dig up information that is not only relevant (because you will call it out if it is not) but also accurate. I know if you look at what the information your resources have said you would see the hokes in what they are selling. Because of all the tough questions that you ask about what I am actually saying, you can poke holes in whatever it is that the information you have read that tried to examine the economy. Not the facts of events (he was here when his person was there, or this partial quote), but what they meant.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Don't forget that I used to be just like you. I went to college, got a good degree in business and believed exactly as you do. the fed is here for a good purpose, the dollar is allmighty, banks loan money they take in as deposits. Then learned the truth of the matter some years ago. Credit is debt and debt is NOT wealth. The paper dollar is just someone elses debt, debt is not wealth.

There will always be people who want loans, that is not the problem, the problem is when the people with the money to lend do not do so.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Just an extra thought to maybe help conceptualize the whole concept. Money(Currency) is debt, the only way you can service the ever increasing debt is by consistently increasing the money supply (inflation). The more loans given out or the more financing taken is how the money gets into the peoples hands. Only by spending the money back into the system will the debt be serviced. If banks stop lending then debt cannot be serviced because the people cannot spend what they do not have, then they go bankrupt. Once everyone goes bankrupt the banks ( And the Corporations) will own everything. All they have to do is deny loans, eventually the entire system collapses. They figured out how to do this Hundreds of years ago, but it didn't always work 100% because plenty of people still used Silver and Gold as money. If only they could have found a way to make gold&silver not money anymore and just make the scrip the money, then they could control it and everyone who uses it, and not 1 in a million would be any wiser to the scheme.

The legal tender power enabled politicians to fool the public into believing the dollar no longer meant a weight of gold or silver. Instead, the government told the people that the dollar now meant a piece of government-issued paper backed up by nothing except the promises of government to maintain a stable value of currency. Of course, history showed that the word of the government to protect the value of the dollar is literally not worth the paper it is printed on...
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Just when you think you are done you come up with more.

ARTICLE 1, SECTION 8 OF THE CONSTITUTION STATES THAT CONGRESS SHALL HAVE THE POWER TO COIN (CREATE) MONEY AND REGULATE THE VALUE THEREOF.

IN 1935 THE SUPREME COURT RULED THAT CONGRESS CANNOT CONSTITUTIONALLY DELEGATE ITS POWER TO ANOTHER GROUP. look up the sick chicken case.

Speaking to aides of Roosevelt, Justice Louis Brandeis remarked that, &#8220;This is the end of this business of centralization, and I want you to go back and tell the president that we're not going to let this government centralize everything."

Rothschild, a London Banker, wrote a letter saying "It (Central Bank ) gives the National Bank almost complete control of national finance. The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits, or so dependent on its favours, that there will be no opposition from that class... The great body of the people, mentally incapable of comprehending, will bear its burden without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical (contrary) to their interests." [The bankers created the legislation for the FED]

In 1913, before the Senate Banking and Currency Committee, Mr. Alexander stated: "But the whole scheme of a Federal Reserve Bank with its commercial-paper basis is an impractical, cumbersome machinery, is simply a cover, to find a way to secure the privilege of issuing money and to evade payment of as much tax upon circulation as possible, and then control the issue and maintain, instead of reduce, interest rates. It is a system that, if inaugurated, will prove to the advantage of the few and the detriment of the people of the United States. It will mean continued shortage of actual money and further extension of credits; for when there is a lack of real money people have to borrow credit to their cost.


Napoleon, a sympathizer for the international bankers, turned against them in the last years of his rule. He said: "When a government is dependent upon bankers for money, they and not the leaders of the government control the situation, since the hand that gives is above the hand that takes... Money has no motherland; financiers are without patriotism and without decency; their sole object is gain."

Dr. Hans F. Sennholz, Chairman of the Department of Economics at Grove City (PA) College stated: "The Federal Reserve System facilitates the government's own inflationary financing in "periods of emergency." It makes easy the inflationary financing of budget deficits and the inflationary refunding of government loans. It stabilizes the government bond market through inflationary methods and manipulates this market to the advantage of the government. It does all this by wrecking the purchasing power of the dollar; by subtly stealing from the people of this country what it thus provides for the government, through a process exactly on par with the coin clipping of ancient kings but much less visible."

"
 

hanimmal

Well-Known Member
Hey ND, sorry man, I was feeling like shit all day yesterday (hung over) and never came back to our seemingly daily economic chat/debate!

SO I am trying to read all those things, but am approaching finals and am getting through them a little slow (didn't help I was hugging the toilet yesterday).

Reading that washingtonblog though I followed one of the links where it said Bernake said that it is the Feds fault about the Depression:

http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=59405
Friedman: Well, we have to distinguish between the recession of 1929, the early stages, and the conversion of that recession into a major catastrophe.
The recession was an ordinary business cycle. We had repeated recessions over hundreds of years, but what converted [this one] into a major depression was bad monetary policy.


The Federal Reserve System had been established to prevent what actually happened. It was set up to avoid a situation in which you would have to close down banks, in which you would have a banking crisis. And yet, under the Federal Reserve System, you had the worst banking crisis in the history of the United States. There's no other example I can think of, of a government measure which produced so clearly the opposite of the results that were intended.
And what happened is that [the Federal Reserve] followed policies which led to a decline in the quantity of money by a third. For every $100 in paper money, in deposits, in cash, in currency, in existence in 1929, by the time you got to 1933 there was only about $65, $66 left. And that extraordinary collapse in the banking system, with about a third of the banks failing from beginning to end, with millions of people having their savings essentially washed out, that decline was utterly unnecessary.


At all times, the Federal Reserve had the power and the knowledge to have stopped that. And there were people at the time who were all the time urging them to do that. So it was, in my opinion, clearly a mistake of policy that led to the Great Depression.
Can you guess what it was that they did to decrease the money supply?
And who do you think it is that he is referring to that had the knowledge of what to do and urging them to do it. Remember this is Leading up to the Great Depression, and I have said all along that they did not have a clue what was going on pre-depression with the macro economy.

After citing how Friedman and Schwartz documented the Fed's continual contraction of the money supply during the Depression and its aftermath &#8211; and the subsequent abandonment of the gold standard by many nations in order to stop the devastating monetary contraction &#8211; Bernanke adds:
More of what I am talking about.

Bernake:It was in large part to improve the management of banking panics that the Federal Reserve was created in 1913. However, as Friedman and Schwartz discuss in some detail, in the early 1930s the Federal Reserve did not serve that function. The problem within the Fed was largely doctrinal: Fed officials appeared to subscribe to Treasury Secretary Andrew Mellon's infamous 'liquidationist' thesis, that weeding out "weak" banks was a harsh but necessary prerequisite to the recovery of the banking system. Moreover, most of the failing banks were small banks (as opposed to what we would now call money-center banks) and not members of the Federal Reserve System. Thus the Fed saw no particular need to try to stem the panics. At the same time, the large banks &#8211; which would have intervened before the founding of the Fed &#8211; felt that protecting their smaller brethren was no longer their responsibility. Indeed, since the large banks felt confident that the Fed would protect them if necessary, the weeding out of small competitors was a positive good, from their point of view.


In short, according to Friedman and Schwartz, because of institutional changes and misguided doctrines, the banking panics of the Great Contraction were much more severe and widespread than would have normally occurred during a downturn. &#8230;


Let me end my talk by abusing slightly my status as an official representative of the Federal Reserve. I would like to say to Milton and Anna: Regarding the Great Depression. You're right, we did it. We're very sorry. But thanks to you, we won't do it again.
Best wishes for your next ninety years.
This guy is using these as examples of how the Fed is bad, but failed to realize that these people are actually talking about failed practices of the old economic system. The let them fail mentality that we hear so much today is what they were warning about.


Anyway I will be back later, I need to go get some stuff done.
 

NoDrama

Well-Known Member
Your right han, until Keynes came along everyone was just fucking STUPID!! No one had a clue because everyone lived in a fucking cave until AFTER the depression. What a crock of BS. I Laugh at your premise. The fed did it on purpose to kill off all the little banks that were not part of the Reserve system so that there was less competition for them to deal with. Since they can just create money at will it only makes sense to cause a huge price destruction so that when the damage is done you can go in and buy it all back for pennies on the dollar. And that is exactly what the Fed controlled banks did.

Don't trust anything Bernanke says, after all he is the one who said that the US was not in any trouble, he was CONFIDENT that the economic situation would reverse and everything would be just fucking great, no worries at all. The guy is a HUGE lie creation machine!! Must be that the Fed just doesn't understand economics eh?

Still none of this does anything to argue for the Fed NOT creating money out of thin air. They do and we all know they do, they have said repeatedly in Media and in their own publications that they create money out of thin air. The preponderance of Evidence is obvious to anyone who opens their eyes.
 
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