Quick Q about wiring a 2 Gang electrical outlet box... Grounding outlets together...

smoke and coke

smoke and coke

Well-Known Member
i dont think your going to run 220v and a ground to that box and get 120volt powering outlets without a neutral. you can not use the bare ground for the neutral. you needed to run a 10/3 with grnd. throw up a wiring diagram of the light controller.

my thought is you will only feed that box with 120 volt 30 amp so you will only need 1 space in your main box and not 2.

turn off that 2 pole 30 amp and see what doesnt work.
examples- hot water heater, dryer, cooktop, maybe a well, air condensor unit for central air, small garage sub panel.
 
S

str8sativa

Well-Known Member
DrGribble said:
I just ran into a big disappointing (I stupidly assumed I had available space in my service panel because there were 4 breakout tabs still (dumb) and just opened it up to realize there is no space... I never found a way to to disconnect the power outside the house like I had thought was there it was simply for the Central Air it looks like. There is a double pole 30 amp breaker, exactly as the one I purchased that IS WIRED however I cannot yet figure out what it controls or if it's even still in use... This house is pretty old and has been remodeled and changed up a lot by previous owner, we moved in just a couple years ago.

Anyway this 30-Amp double pole breaker is labeled "Dishwasher" but it's not for the dishwasher, I think these are all incorrectly labeled or not updated also spots 19 & 20 are unlabeled and when I toggle them on/off I don't notice anything either. I am wondering if I can just toggle the 30-amp and the two others unlabeled off and try and use EVERYTHING in the house room by room in a systematic approach to figure these things as un-used or not. I really need to get this hooked up but with no available spaces that really sucks. I wouldn't be surprised if there's some stuff in here that was phased out... I mean I see "Washer/Dryer" listed THREE TIMES in the service panel and I know which one actually controls the washer/dryer. I think the upstairs bathroom used to have a washer/dryer but the wall was patched and hidden and the dryer vent outside that wall has been out of use since we lived here... maybe that one would work.

I wouldn't be surprised if I thought one was of no use then 3 months down the road I notice something isn't working haha... like the heat... at this point it's looking like I am going to have an electrician up in my grow room with my plants surrounding him, awkward... at this point I am getting annoyed and frustrated knowing how simple this is but running into setbacks because I am trying to do it for the first time. I gotta have a way to get that power though... that's all I know.

Hmm...
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you can take 2 15s off and put a 30 breaker but you would have to beef up the wires not best idea or easiest. i had to do this the other day go to your panel box with sharpie and flashlight have some one inside on the phone with you turn off one breaker at a time see whats not working in the house and what outlets no longer have power, then right it down on the panel will take few minutes to do them all but worth it. easiest thing to do is tap into one of your thirtys that is barley used or that you can use the twelve hours when your lights are off.

i run flower 9pm to 9am and if i wanna use my dryer i have to unplug the light cord and plug in the dryer. so a more ghetto cheaper version about putting the sub panel in
 
DrGribble

DrGribble

Well-Known Member
smoke and coke said:
i dont think your going to run 220v and a ground to that box and get 120volt powering outlets without a neutral. you can not use the bare ground for the neutral. you needed to run a 10/3 with grnd. throw up a wiring diagram of the light controller.

my thought is you will only feed that box with 120 volt 30 amp so you will only need 1 space in your main box and not 2.

turn off that 2 pole 30 amp and see what doesnt work.
examples- hot water heater, dryer, cooktop, maybe a well, air condensor unit for central air, small garage sub panel.
Click to expand...

I am running my ballasts at 220/240v, since buying this... that is the plan! :)

And guess what! I found a double pole location for the CAP unit too, underground sprinkling I have NOT USED ONCE since living here for plenty of years! I don't need it, never needed it, won't miss what I never used! boom!

I am so stoked right now because I was not happy I had to route something in here from another circuit to run that 3rd 600... Now I just need to see if the power company will shut me off for 20-30 minutes so I can swap out the breakers and turn me back on remotely or if that is not possible... they did it once years ago when I missed a payment so if they could be so kind once again. I know I can swap it on a live panel but 'fuck that' I am not going to be that guy with my less than professional level of knowledge. The double pole location is the very top spot too right by the two main lines... yes, please cut my power, if it were the bottom locations I wouldn't worry half as much.
 
S

str8sativa

Well-Known Member
DrGribble said:
I am running my ballasts at 220/240v, since buying this... that is the plan! :)

And guess what! I found a double pole location for the CAP unit too, underground sprinkling I have NOT USED ONCE since living here for plenty of years! I don't need it, never needed it, won't miss what I never used! boom!

I am so stoked right now because I was not happy I had to route something in here from another circuit to run that 3rd 600... Now I just need to see if the power company will shut me off for 20-30 minutes so I can swap out the breakers and turn me back on remotely or if that is not possible... they did it once years ago when I missed a payment so if they could be so kind once again. I know I can swap it on a live panel but 'fuck that' I am not going to be that guy with my less than professional level of knowledge. The double pole location is the very top spot too right by the two main lines... yes, please cut my power, if it were the bottom locations I wouldn't worry half as much.
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better safe then sorry get uncle fester to do it haha
 
smoke and coke

smoke and coke

Well-Known Member
didnt think the power co. would turn off your power so you could swap a breaker and connect a branch circuit. around here they would laugh at you and tell you to call a lic. electrician.
 
DrGribble

DrGribble

Well-Known Member
smoke and coke said:
didnt think the power co. would turn off your power so you could swap a breaker and connect a branch circuit. around here they would laugh at you and tell you to call a lic. electrician.
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That's what I am afraid of, I think they'd have to physically come out and pull the meter come to think of it and I am sure that's gonna cost some money one way or the other... damn. Well still, I know I have a location for the breaker so that's one step closer to 12/12. I don't wanna flip til I can get all 3 lights powered but I could probably do it just about anytime...
 
smoke and coke

smoke and coke

Well-Known Member
ok the controller is only for 220 volt lights and the 120 volt is for the timer.

you should call an electrician. if i came over to connect a wire into a panel, i would have to see the other end to make sure i was connected properly first. then after connecting to the panel, it needs to be tested for good power. so the electrician would see what you were doing.

if you have any doubt about doing it yourself, then dont do it and get help.
 
herballuvmonkey

herballuvmonkey

Well-Known Member
Wow I wish I would have seen this thread long ago. As I was reading I was like"this guys in for a rude awakening". But then you figured it out. Next time PM me and I will tell ya how to do it without the lighting controller and using a commercial timer. Cheaper easy and safe. By the way, I am a certified (not licensed) electrician. I said in one of my other posts I wish there was a way I could wire up a lot of you guys probs for ya.
 
DrGribble

DrGribble

Well-Known Member
Thanks again for the responses and yeah I kind of learn as I go, obviously sorted out a considerable amount of misconceptions already but still learning a lot in the process. This is one area I would have asked and searched, read and read for a while before actually touching it. It's all good to play around with the stuff if it's not connected to the service panel but that was definitely the last place I was going to go (if I even did) I have an electrician who will call me back monday morning (bleh) to quote me on replacing the breaker and finishing up the wiring for me since I handled a lot of the time consuming stuff I am hoping under $100. I am still kind of reluctant to let some electrician I don't know see my garden because who knows who he's going to casually talk to about it.... "blah blah today at work"...

It's a perfectly legit medical grow but still... I am not at a comfort level with anyone knowing who does not need to.

by the way are you talking about Hot Water timers or something? That 4000W Cap Unit was only $140... I know there it can be a lot cheaper but still, $140 isn't much I think I'd spend way more on water heater timers for the same amount of lights (unless I can wire them all to a single one?)


Here's where I want my breaker too... right there in the scary spot.

DSC03799.jpg
 
Brokeoldbloke

Brokeoldbloke

Active Member
Yah, safest bet is to let a electrician do it. I already see other things in the panel I don't like. Some being the wrienut, that the furnace breaker is double-up and its a birds nest. That being said you can probably slide a peice of cardboard in between main lugs and the breakers making a shield so you don't touch them . Also wear a pair of dry leather glove when replacing it.
 
DrGribble

DrGribble

Well-Known Member
Brokeoldbloke said:
Yah, safest bet is to let a electrician do it. I already see other things in the panel I don't like. Some being the wrienut, that the furnace breaker is double-up and its a birds nest. That being said you can probably slide a peice of cardboard in between main lugs and the breakers making a shield so you don't touch them . Also wear a pair of dry leather glove when replacing it.
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Thanks, yes it is a mess and I wish I was an electrician right now so I could just go in there and clean it all up, simple wire management would make that look good again... I am a real fanatic when it came to wire/cable management in many areas of my life too so looking at this is almost depressing (lol) I have also seen the use of a cardboard shield is quite a popular option, as of right now I am still not doing it but know I could pull it off with care... I'd be in there 5 minutes, out and relieved... or crispy on the floor?

Videos like this one (working on and swapping breakers in a live panel) really start to make it look less mystifying... I've watched tons, I mean he's even poking at the main lines with his finger. I think the true way I'd end up killing myself is if I somehow had a piece of metal contact both leads together and that would take quite a bit of skill to pull off by accident. I dropped a wrench when working on my car once and it connected pos/neg terminals on the battery for a second and arc welded itself for a second... so I know how exciting that can be.

[video=youtube;XmWhDaF1cPU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmWhDaF1cPU[/video]
 
Brokeoldbloke

Brokeoldbloke

Active Member
Good video, it explains it well. It would be nice if you had a main breaker. Just like your battery you can't allow the live wire/lug come in contact with any bare metal surface in the panel without fireworks. I doubt it would kill you maybe just a bad burn or blindness but everybodys resistance is different to shock. The Arc Flash fireworks is metal that has vaporized. The electrical safety standards are crazy strict now. I think you're suspose to suit up in arc rated gear now, like coveralls and a face shield, just to remove a panel cover. I'd like to hear what your electrician does.
 
DrGribble

DrGribble

Well-Known Member
I got some awesome welding goggles coming any day now... I bought those so my Metal Halides wouldn't mess with my eyes so much... open hood and vertical makes it really tricky to avoid eye contact with them... those would be handy if anything you described were to happen... still hesitant, slowly but surely feeling like I should just knock it out in a few minutes but I am not quick to rush into it. The ground bar is pretty full too, I'd have to double up on a ground screw with something else (it's already happened in there) I assume that's no big deal.

I'll still be talking about this 2 days from now as I still contemplate not doing it I bet... it's funny how worked up all the warnings, advice and so on can get you about someting an electrician wouldn't blink twice at just because it's been done so long and they're so much more comfortable with it. I'm guessing they work on live panels quite often and the main lugs are live always no matter what even with a main breaker so I don't see it making a substantial difference... wondering if I just flipped the breaker underneath the one I am swapping too if that would make it an even safer area.
 
DrGribble

DrGribble

Well-Known Member
It became more apparent to me when I traced the steps of an electrician that came in here when I moved in (to install 220 for dryer) he ran the ground and neutral for that device to the same screw which appears to be already holding 2 a ground or two more. I also see all throughout this thing there's plenty of 'mixed gauge' ground under single screws... my thoughts on this were way more technical and careful than the mess I am seeing here but it's making me think that it works as I have never once had a problem -- It's crazy to see based on what I have read though.

I have a Cutler Hammer so it accepts 3 wires per grounding screw but AFAIK they are supposed to be same size and I am not sure how that applies to my 10 gauge wire which is considerably thicker than some of the stuff in here, based on what I see here I am tempted to just ground it where I see 2 or less ground wires under a post -- Nothing in here seems to match in gauge it's kind of ridiculous, I feel like I may be a better electrician at this point from a few days of reading than whoever did some of this work and I have never done any of it myself lol.

Ground location is just about the only thing that's keeping me from maybe attempting it... but it looks like there's no 'right answer' location for me to run my ground based on how everything else is already apparently done wrong.

DSC03802.jpgDSC03805.jpg
 
DrGribble

DrGribble

Well-Known Member
Also, would it matter if I grounded to the bottom bar, or should I stick with the top bar which is easier to access, there is actually an open spot on the bottom bar but I thought the furthest back/bottom one was probably more for the neutrals although like I said I see neutrals and grounds under the same screw, I found an open spot in the lower bar (furthest back in the panel) but it seems like there's more neutrals there than grounds and they are more in the top bar) I am thinking at this point ground and neutrals can go anywhere there's space for them... accessing the screw to the lower bar is going to be a lot harder especially with wires everywhere in front of it but it's completely open from what I can see and EVERYTHING in here is doubled, tripled, and even a gang of 4 in one I think I saw (lol)
 
N

NW2AZ

Member
I still say run a sub pannel. Very easy basic wiring as long as u run it off a high enough guage you could power your entire room on the single panel.
I now run a 50 amp 6-3 from my main panel to my sub on my wall. I then have two pole 20amp breakers for my lights running 12-3 to 220 outlets. I also re used my single pole 20 amp breaker on the sub panel and ran multiple outlets off the single leg using 12-2. Make sure when wiring the sub panel to follow a tutorial.
 
N

NW2AZ

Member
DrGribble said:
Also, would it matter if I grounded to the bottom bar, or should I stick with the top bar which is easier to access, there is actually an open spot on the bottom bar but I thought the furthest back/bottom one was probably more for the neutrals although like I said I see neutrals and grounds under the same screw, I found an open spot in the lower bar (furthest back in the panel) but it seems like there's more neutrals there than grounds and they are more in the top bar) I am thinking at this point ground and neutrals can go anywhere there's space for them... accessing the screw to the lower bar is going to be a lot harder especially with wires everywhere in front of it but it's completely open from what I can see and EVERYTHING in here is doubled, tripled, and even a gang of 4 in one I think I saw (lol)
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In the main panel i see grpunds and neutrals on the same bar all the time which makes sense becasue the bars are both attatched directly to the panel on a main. On a sub panel however to stay to 'code' the neutral doesnt make contact with the panel only the ground bar. This always confused me because they turn into the same thing in the main panel. Not going to argue woth a licesened electrician they usually know what theyre talking about. Its sweet i work with one who is very green friendly.
 
DrGribble

DrGribble

Well-Known Member
Yeah I have read the same thing regarding the grounds/neutrals as they are connected at main panel... I was worried that maybe routing that bare copper wire into a spot would somehow zap me in some way if I touched it to too many wires but I suppose being shielded neutrals and other grounds I am worrying about nothing. That one available screw in the lower bus seems to be perfect though I was just paranoid about my screwdriver contacting all these wires at once but again probably doesn't matter I guess... anything with a bunch of bare wire attached to it leads me to believe it's less hazardous.

I am slowly getting over my paranoia and may just all of a sudden go do this... still reading though, I am kind of anal about being thorough when my life is at risk :P
 
DrGribble

DrGribble

Well-Known Member
All that remains to be said can be summed up in this photo I just took, stoked.

DSC03807.jpg


And since the wires to the underground sprinkling are no longer live or attached to anything w/ power I just taped each end individually then together and tucked them away so when it comes time to wanna use the sprinkling someday I just gotta spend 2 minutes swapping it back. Don't think I'll ever do that unless I move and a new owner takes the home though.
 
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