PPM question!!

B

Boston Brian

Active Member
Hello, just have a question that i would greatly like to shed some light on. I am currently on week 7 of flower. Using GH trio big bud and bud candy. I use tap water with a PPM of 300ish on my blue lab meter. Anyway.. i noticed around week 5 i had super high PPM in my run off. like 1900ish.. its now been 3-4 good watering's with straight tap water and just checked run off and its 1300ish. so 300 in 1300 out.. again i have only used tap for awhile now (usually water every 3 days) But is this high PPM because my tap water is so hard? and maybe just the minerals or something? i have tested so many things and just cant wrap my head around this. Since only using tap plants started to fade big time.. purple/yellow/dying leaves. I tested my soil Ph to see if the plants are not eating and its at a solid 6.5 using a blue lab soil pen. I add a little lime at the start to my soil to help keep that PH in range as i find the stuff that comes in Happy frog and ocean forest doesn't get me thru a full run.. Today i watered with plain tap at 6.9ish PH. 300PPM tested the run off it was 6.5PH and 1300ppm.. im using amazon fabric pots that have gotten a few runs in them... is this the bags holding onto all the minerals from my hard tap? is this what is giving me these insane PPM? even when i fed i never went that high.. with nutrients when i did feed it was around 1300ish as i went lower then half dose when i fed. Again plants looked good and are close to finish.. But im just so confused about this PPM thing.. i stopped feeding thinking that there was plenty in the soil from getting such high readings.. but since i stopped feeding plants have seriously started to fade a little before i wanted them too.. Is this a combo of hardtap/fabric pots? Not enough run off when i fed(its a PITA watering 8 five gallon fabric pots with good runoff) Were my plants not feeding? Is the stuff in the soil not available to the plants even though it has a high PPM?
 
LeastExpectedGrower

LeastExpectedGrower

Well-Known Member
It's because you're still leaching out that overly high build up in your soil from before...and FFOF is hot anyway so there's plenty to try to leach out. 1300 isn't awful so I'd be feeding them at least a bit again.

Rather than just watering to some runoff for 3-4 times next time, push a BUNCH of water through at once like . I dropped my PPM from ~2500 down to 330 in a 5 gallon bag by putting 5 or 6 gallons of water (pH'ed to 6.5, but my well water is 220ppm) in one go. Then you're not starving your plants for a week or two before you re-feed.

Also, if you're using GH Trio, and have a water PPM over 300, try their Micro Hardwater instead of standard Micro. I grabbed some and think it makes a huge difference.
 
B

Boston Brian

Active Member
LeastExpectedGrower said:
It's because you're still leaching out that overly high build up in your soil from before...and FFOF is hot anyway so there's plenty to try to leach out. 1300 isn't awful so I'd be feeding them at least a bit again.

Rather than just watering to some runoff for 3-4 times next time, push a BUNCH of water through at once like . I dropped my PPM from ~2500 down to 330 in a 5 gallon bag by putting 5 or 6 gallons of water (pH'ed to 6.5, but my well water is 220ppm) in one go. Then you're not starving your plants for a week or two before you re-feed.

Also, if you're using GH Trio, and have a water PPM over 300, try their Micro Hardwater instead of standard Micro. I grabbed some and think it makes a huge difference.
Click to expand...
I think you are right, although I did run no nutrients and had them vegging in the FFOF And HF mix with lime for a long time maybe 2ish months so there def was little food left in the medium. And I only fed with liquid maybe 5-6 times
 
B

Boston Brian

Active Member
Nutty sKunK said:
Don’t flush that?! Looks great. Keep it that way until harvest. If it makes you feel better just use water on the last couple of waterings but don’t drown/starve it lol
Click to expand...
Also sorry for this might be a stupid question.. but when plants fade during flower is it normal for the tops of the plants to fade first? and the bottoms still a vigorous green? or is that caused by somthing else? i have 7-9 week strains growing and on week 8ish so about to be done anyway but i think a few are going to go closer to 10-11 weeks based off the looks and trichs. But yea top of plant fading first normal?
 
Lordhooha

Lordhooha

Well-Known Member
Boston Brian said:
Also sorry for this might be a stupid question.. but when plants fade during flower is it normal for the tops of the plants to fade first? and the bottoms still a vigorous green? or is that caused by somthing else? i have 7-9 week strains growing and on week 8ish so about to be done anyway but i think a few are going to go closer to 10-11 weeks based off the looks and trichs. But yea top of plant fading first normal?
Click to expand...
There shouldn't be a fade. No flush and get some close up pics of those buds they look like they have 4 weeks or more to go.
 
Nutty sKunK

Nutty sKunK

Well-Known Member
Boston Brian said:
Also sorry for this might be a stupid question.. but when plants fade during flower is it normal for the tops of the plants to fade first? and the bottoms still a vigorous green? or is that caused by somthing else? i have 7-9 week strains growing and on week 8ish so about to be done anyway but i think a few are going to go closer to 10-11 weeks based off the looks and trichs. But yea top of plant fading first normal?
Click to expand...
Im pretty sure you’d fade if you were subjected to that intense lighting for 2 months lol

In other words it’s normal for indoor growing but it’s a sign of too much light for too long
 
CheGueVapo

CheGueVapo

Well-Known Member
Do you have values what the 300ppm water contains? What about sodium chloride, do you know how much is in?

One big problem withmeasuring the Minerals in the drain is that you simply dont measure that.... what you measure is always only just "electrical conductance", then we "assume" the minerals from that, like if they all would be calcium-ions or sodium-ions ppm500/700, yup, its just straight GUESS lol....thats deeply wrong, just a really bad assumption ALWAYS, does not work this way, its definetly not all calcium-ions and definetly not all sodium-ions, but thats what the scale shows you in fact, the PPM if they were all THOSE, but it's better than knowing NOTHING right?... right, because we have nothing else to assume the minerals... nothing!

Heres the yet more bigger problem: The drain from the soil contains a lot of organic matter (living & dead) with bond-tied minerals inside that (living & dead) matter. The EC/ppm-probe cannot differ between the water-diluted accessible minerals which may burn your roots and the organic-bond minerals inside the matter that just "swim" in the water... thats not the same... those also raise the electrical conductivity in the probe measurement, but those are not of concern to your roots, it's just some "soil-matter" that increaeses the electrical conductivity..... this does not count for plants, they are not sensitive to elecrical conductivity at all.. they only care about the real "salinity" of those minerals who are diluted in the water, not the soil-crumbs, and those organic matters are not "diluted" yet just swimming aroung, they dont mind them saying "hello", its' just organic matter not affecting the plant... in fact the roots can "dock" on these and make them release the minerals! Thats the thing in organic grow.... ion-exchange with the pool of organic matter! You dont need the EC-meter at all guessing like a fortuneteller on your organic grow.

For example a particle of dolomite (an-organic also).... is bond tied CaMg... you can flush those particels out with the drain and measure, at it shows these minerals conductivity..... but they are NOT diluted in the water....this particle must release the Ca and Mg first to increase the actual REAL mineral-salinity of the water. You cannot measure that.. no way.

Dont confuse that drain runoff values with the EC/ppm of your mineral feed. What you flush out and measure is the organic matter.... the best and safest long term nutrition ever, dont flush it .... plants feed good from that, while microbes release those minerals from the organic-matter to be accessible. In nature plants dont need nobody to flush in big packs of Nutes in they get all they need from that reservoir, that you worry about beeing so high ppm...

Thats why it is said to dont take the EC/ppm of your organic feed serious... it doesn't matter, because most of it is organic matter, not diluted mineral-salts.... thats a huge difference... but SAME electrical conductivity raise happens!

Flush CAN be neccesary if you build up either too much Ca/Mg from the tap, or, when your pots build up to much sodium-chloride from the tap.Thats why checking your local water-suppliers "data" can help you find out whats problematic on the long term. Usually tap is ok for the time of the grows with enough soil... tap differs, each tap is unique and it changes over time, not stays the same. Usually the companies release data for every quarter of the year after it has been passed. Keep an eye on that... i have 100mg NaCl per liter..... I save salt cooking my potatoes...the water supplier sends me a lot for free ;) That is a big concern for plants and for small pets like birds.... dont feed that salty goop.

The data from your water supplier gives you more hints, than the EC-meter ever can do.... that just confuses you with measuring electrical conductancies and making bad assumptions.... ;)
 
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Lordhooha

Lordhooha

Well-Known Member
CheGueVapo said:
Do you have values what the 300ppm water contains? What about sodium chloride, do you know how much is in?

One big problem withmeasuring the Minerals in the drain is that you simply dont measure that.... what you measure is always only just "electrical conductance", then we "assume" the minerals from that, like if they all would be calcium-ions or sodium-ions ppm500/700, yup, its just straight GUESS lol....thats deeply wrong, just a really bad assumption ALWAYS, does not work this way, its definetly not all calcium-ions and definetly not all sodium-ions, but thats what the scale shows you in fact, the PPM if they were all THOSE, but it's better than knowing NOTHING right?... right, because we have nothing else to assume the minerals... nothing!

Heres the yet more bigger problem: The drain from the soil contains a lot of organic matter (living & dead) with bond-tied minerals inside that (living & dead) matter. The EC/ppm-probe cannot differ between the water-diluted accessible minerals which may burn your roots and the organic-bond minerals inside the matter that just "swim" in the water... thats not the same... those also raise the electrical conductivity in the probe measurement, but those are not of concern to your roots, it's just some "soil-matter" that increaeses the electrical conductivity..... this does not count for plants, they are not sensitive to elecrical conductivity at all.. they only care about the real "salinity" of those minerals who are diluted in the water, not the soil-crumbs, and those organic matters are not "diluted" yet just swimming aroung, they dont mind them saying "hello", its' just organic matter not affecting the plant... in fact the roots can "dock" on these and make them release the minerals! Thats the thing in organic grow.... ion-exchange with the pool of organic matter! You dont need the EC-meter at all guessing like a fortuneteller on your organic grow.

For example a particle of dolomite (an-organic also).... is bond tied CaMg... you can flush those particels out with the drain and measure, at it shows these minerals conductivity..... but they are NOT diluted in the water....this particle must release the Ca and Mg first to increase the actual REAL mineral-salinity of the water. You cannot measure that.. no way.

Dont confuse that drain runoff values with the EC/ppm of your mineral feed. What you flush out and measure is the organic matter.... the best and safest long term nutrition ever, dont flush it .... plants feed good from that, while microbes release those minerals from the organic-matter to be accessible. In nature plants dont need nobody to flush in big packs of Nutes in they get all they need from that reservoir, that you worry about beeing so high ppm...

Thats why it is said to dont take the EC/ppm of your organic feed serious... it doesn't matter, because most of it is organic matter, not diluted mineral-salts.... thats a huge difference... but SAME electrical conductivity raise happens!

Flush CAN be neccesary if you build up either too much Ca/Mg from the tap, or, when your pots build up to much sodium-chloride from the tap.Thats why checking your local water-suppliers "data" can help you find out whats problematic on the long term. Usually tap is ok for the time of the grows with enough soil... tap differs, each tap is unique and it changes over time, not stays the same. Usually the companies release data for every quarter of the year after it has been passed. Keep an eye on that... i have 100mg NaCl per liter..... I save salt cooking my potatoes...the water supplier sends me a lot for free ;) That is a big concern for plants and for small pets like birds.... dont feed that salty goop.

The data from your water supplier gives you more hints, than the EC-meter ever can do.... that just confuses you with measuring electrical conductancies and making bad assumptions.... ;)
Click to expand...
You realize the values and ppm in city water can change hour by hour and day by day right?
 
CheGueVapo

CheGueVapo

Well-Known Member
Sure, but you see in the quarters of the year charts, what measure the watrer supplier takes in the seasons to manage the values.
For example mine has higher cal/mag and nacl in the winter than in the summer.... when you review the values in a row, you know what you have in the actual quarter.

Also you measure the PPMs of the tap and the PH of the tap, so you actually SEE if these values are "stable" or changing.
Mine only changes rarely, realy slow, stable values over monthes are the normal.

Daily changes in fact dont happen at all here, mine is stable, only because it "CAN" happen, doesn't mean it actually happen... lol
yeah sure, an asteroid "CAN" hit your roof hour by hour day by day.... right? :rolleyes:

You check the values from your supplier and the time-developement not to get EXACT values... but to know APPROXIMATELY what's in.... because if you dont look that up, you approximately KNOW NOTHING about it, day by day, hour by hour, right? :P

Edit: I dont care anymore whatever im using RO-membrane ;)
 
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Lordhooha

Lordhooha

Well-Known Member
CheGueVapo said:
Sure, but you see in the quarters of the year charts, what measure the watrer supplier takes in the seasons to manage the values.
For example mine has higher cal/mag and nacl in the winter than in the summer.... when you review the values in a row, you know what you have in the actual quarter.

Also you measure the PPMs of the tap and the PH of the tap, so you actually SEE if these values are "stable" or changing.
Mine only changes rarely, realy slow, stable values over monthes are the normal.

Daily changes in fact dont happen at all here, mine is stable, only because it "CAN" happen, doesn't mean it actually happen... lol
yeah sure, an asteroid "CAN" hit your roof hour by hour day by day.... right? :rolleyes:

You check the values from your supplier and the time-developement not to get EXACT values... but to know APPROXIMATELY what's in.... because if you dont look that up, you approximately KNOW NOTHING about it, day by day, hour by hour, right? :P

Edit: I dont care anymore whatever im using RO-membrane ;)
Click to expand...
Yep me too I've got a monster ro unit. Touch screen and does a bit over 10000 gallons a day. But never had issues running city or well water. It's all balance honestly.
 
CheGueVapo

CheGueVapo

Well-Known Member
Lordhooha said:
It's all balance honestly.
Click to expand...
I agree.... i just said informing yourself about whats in the water of your city - the mineral values (mg/l) - can definetly help you balance your feeds better, especially if you want to recycle your soil, and preserve it. The EC/ppm-reading alone simply don't tell you enough information.... you bring that "reading" into picture with the information the water supplier provides you. If you ignore that, it's harder to balance. Just that!
 
CheGueVapo

CheGueVapo

Well-Known Member
Its about incorporating the minerals from the tap into your feeding. You must consider those minerals. SOme water have so much nitrates you must consider thos amounts of N or you easily overfeed N....If you have soft-water chekc wiesely how many magnesium... sometimes it's NONE... you must consider that.

It does not spontaneously jump the next day to lots of magnesium, because your water supplier does not spontaneously changes the source of his water or his procedures.... he just adjusts a little.

You must be aware of the minerals of the tap and when certain ones reach higher certain amount you must take them into account, reduce your feed on these. Sodium chloride is a very special one. You dont need the masses that are in tap! They protect the pipes from freezing, but those doses are to high for plants.... the pots salt up in the long run... it is unavoidable! Maybe it works 100days with good draining and so you not notice it having a good yield... but the soil is going CRAPS if you continue that! You must throw it away some day.... because you fucked up balancing the tap!

Get that?

5mg/l K in the TAP? You take that into ACCOUNT, it's something!
 
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Lordhooha

Lordhooha

Well-Known Member
CheGueVapo said:
Its about incorporating the minerals from the tap into your feeding. You must consider those minerals. SOme water have so much nitrates you must consider thos amounts of N or you easily overfeed N....If you have soft-water chekc wiesely how many magnesium... sometimes it's NONE... you must consider that.

It does not spontaneously jump the next day to lots of magnesium, because your water supplier does not spontaneously changes the source of his water or his procedures.... he just adjusts a little.

You must be aware of the minerals of the tap and when certain ones reach higher certain amount you must take them into account, reduce your feed on these. Sodium chloride is a very special one. You dont need the masses that are in tap! They protect the pipes from freezing, but those doses are to high for plants.... the pots salt up in the long run... it is unavoidable! Maybe it works 100days with good draining and so you not notice it having a good yield... but the soil is going CRAPS if you continue that! You must throw it away some day.... because you fucked up balancing the tap!

Get that?

5mg/l K in the TAP? You take that into ACCOUNT, it's something!
Click to expand...
No runoff watered from the bottom never had an issue. You seem to try and over complicate things.
 
SirPsycho

SirPsycho

Well-Known Member
Boston Brian said:
Hello, just have a question that i would greatly like to shed some light on. I am currently on week 7 of flower. Using GH trio big bud and bud candy. I use tap water with a PPM of 300ish on my blue lab meter. Anyway.. i noticed around week 5 i had super high PPM in my run off. like 1900ish.. its now been 3-4 good watering's with straight tap water and just checked run off and its 1300ish. so 300 in 1300 out.. again i have only used tap for awhile now (usually water every 3 days) But is this high PPM because my tap water is so hard? and maybe just the minerals or something? i have tested so many things and just cant wrap my head around this. Since only using tap plants started to fade big time.. purple/yellow/dying leaves. I tested my soil Ph to see if the plants are not eating and its at a solid 6.5 using a blue lab soil pen. I add a little lime at the start to my soil to help keep that PH in range as i find the stuff that comes in Happy frog and ocean forest doesn't get me thru a full run.. Today i watered with plain tap at 6.9ish PH. 300PPM tested the run off it was 6.5PH and 1300ppm.. im using amazon fabric pots that have gotten a few runs in them... is this the bags holding onto all the minerals from my hard tap? is this what is giving me these insane PPM? even when i fed i never went that high.. with nutrients when i did feed it was around 1300ish as i went lower then half dose when i fed. Again plants looked good and are close to finish.. But im just so confused about this PPM thing.. i stopped feeding thinking that there was plenty in the soil from getting such high readings.. but since i stopped feeding plants have seriously started to fade a little before i wanted them too.. Is this a combo of hardtap/fabric pots? Not enough run off when i fed(its a PITA watering 8 five gallon fabric pots with good runoff) Were my plants not feeding? Is the stuff in the soil not available to the plants even though it has a high PPM?
Click to expand...
What grow medium are you using? is it soil?
if so, there might be some nutes in the soil already when you bough it.
If you buy soil put it in a small pot and drain it all the way out. Check the ppm on the run off then add nutes as required.
 
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