Planning first grow - Questions

Hello, I am (mostly) new to all this and I would like a second opinion and advice on my planned setup.

First off the background - I am moving from a rather large house to a small apartment 4 states away, and I had take down my aquarium which was live planted for a few years (thats why I say mostly new). The point of that little story sets the problem and some materials I have.

So, given I already have some of the materials (IE: pumps, hoses, basic lighting, etc), I was thinking I wanted to try a small grow with 2-4 plants.

My Budget: Ideally under $200, but up to $300 if it makes life significantly easier / more relaxed (for lighting, DWC setup, baskets, etc, first time stuff).

I would like something that is small (in a closet), runs quietly, does not generate excessive heat (above the obvious), and something that does not smell too much (ideally, my roommate would not even know about it (at least until it came time to cure) lol.

The Setup:
So I was thinking something like this (feel free to tear it apart and make better suggestions if it sucks)

Lighting:
http://htgsupply.com/Product-FLORALUX-150w-HPS-Mini-Grow-Light.asp
or
http://htgsupply.com/Product-HTGSupply-250-watt-High-Pressure-Sodium-Grow-Light.asp
(correct me if I am wrong, but you can put an MH bulb in an HPS socket, but not vice versa) Need help picking which would be best for me (again, small space, with circulation, but not nearly what it could be)

I was also thinking a DWC setup would be the best type of grow for my situation (again, correct me if I'm wrong) so I will need to find a

1. Tub of some kind (blackened)(any suggestions as to size for 2-4 plants would be great)
2. The little net cups/baskets (would 3" work?, also suggestions as to where to get these would be nice )

I have the pump for it (whisper model aquarium pump, nice and quiet).
I also have check valves, t-valves, air stones, and black airline tubing leftover from the aquarium(clean).

I plan on using the fluorescent lighting and aquarium for a cloning setup down the road when I have a bit more space.

Finally, when it comes to the smell I am hoping a carbon filter can take care of most of it (would this work?).

So some questions I had other than the above are
1. How much ventilation is actually required vs circulation, in this situation, circulation = easy, ventilation = a bit more tricky (though not by any means air-tight, there should be just enough ventilation to keep the temp where it should be)
2. Is a tent required in a situation like this or does the closet itself act as well, the closet.
3. Would the 150 watt light above work?
4. Would an LED 'ufo' light be better in this situation (tri-spectrum) for say 2 plants
5. If the setup is even possible, what would you recommend to grow for the first time, I heard Northern Lights is good for starting out, but suggestions would be good. (Should I start with bag seeds?)

If anybody actually took time to read all that Thank you Even more so if you help me out, let me know if what I ask for is too much as well, it would be a stretch to have a grow in an apartment and not have anybody else know about it, I admit that lol.

Too many questions.
DWC would be a good way to grow. Carbon filter will do the odour no problem. A closet/tent/room all the same thing if light proof CFL lights give out less heat than hps/mh but still give heat out that needs exhausting, which the carbon filter should deal with. You shouldn't interchange MH with HPS untill you get some facts there, although what you say rings a bell.
Check my grow journal (from the start?) Same size grow,DWC, CFLs and HPS bulbs....and a few newbie mistakes!
Oh yeh, welcome!

i would start in soil if i were you... good luck !!

elenor.rigby said:

i would start in soil if i were you... good luck !!

Click to expand...

Started with DWC myself,The advantage is you know exactly what the roots are getting, so mistakes can be corrected quickly. But yeh,I agree with elenor rigby; soil could be better, in fact i'm changing my grow over to 50/50 DWC and soil....untill I can make my bl&^%y stoned mind up!
(I meant some plants in a DWC and some in soil, not some wierd hybrid of 50% soil and 50% water and bubbles! hahaha!)

Thanks for the reply's!

I'll consider the switch to soil, but will probably end up with DWC in the end since I really have most of the stuff (perhaps after a successful grow in soil).

Somebody mentioned CFL as the way for me to go, what size, and how many would you recommend for say 2-3 plants (the area is roughly 3' x 2' x Y (with Y being undetermined prolly 5'+), so not exactly a huge amount of space (its slightly longer than 3', but that area is 'reserved'). Do you mean something like this? http://forum.grasscity.com/do-yourself/231455-inexpensive-diy-grow-light.html

Also I read you journal Sworth, I really hope my first grow goes nearly that smoothly, I expect mine will probably be dead before flowering because of some stupid mistake I make lol

(PS: Will be documenting first build as well, once I get everything ironed out look forward to some pics ^_^)

Hello and welcome.

Ironically enough I'm using much of the same kit (my dwc units is a fish tank)

How big is your aquarium?

I think you should measure your aquarium, find yourself something adequate to make a lid out of, cut the holes into that for your net pots and use the aquarium as ur dwc rez. A good diy net pot I use consists of some ladies fishnet tights (thanks to the missus, before anyone thinks I've got more then my plants in the closet! Haha) cut the feet off, stretch the opening across the holes in your lid, staple them down.

Next take your airstones, you preferably want 2 airstones per plant, attach them (using glue, or weights, or whatever you can think of, just make sure they can't get loose) to the bottom of the aquarium directly bellow the newly made net pots. This will ensure the best possible aeration to the root ball, after all that is what makes a DWC unit work.

You should either spray the whole aquarium black or wrap it in mylar. No light AT ALL can get into the roots, or they will end up being unable to take up nutrients.

After you've got your DWC unit made, its time to think about lighting. Now you say ventilation could be an issue, how much so? If you can do it, I would advise a small 150w hps light above each plant, but if you can't vent outside I would just get 2 for all 4 plants. I bought a few on ebay the other day for £25 each, delivered including wiring bulb and ballast! These lights don't put off much heat, but regardless you need more then adequate ventilation. As a rule of thumb, if you have to run your fan at full speed to maintain temps, you need a bigger fan. And to answer your question about circulation versus ventilation, they perform completely different jobs, and one should never be substituted with the other.
Measure your grow space, width, depth and length, do the following sum:

Length x width x depth, then take your answer and times it by 20, the number you end up with is the amount of air the fan you buy needs to move.

Fans are expensive, do the maths and don't be disappointed

Ideally you will be venting out side. This will keep your intake temp at room temp (25 degrees) and then the lights will probably add 3 to 4 degrees making it up to 27-28 degrees. This is the safe zone for me, I've never had a plant that didn't flourish at these temps.
If outside venting is not an option, at least vent into another room. Consider the fact that a 90degree bend in your ducting will usually knock 30-50% off your fans rated m3/h, so keep those ducts as straight as possible. If sound is a problem (moving air is noisey) then you can buy sound insulated ducting, more expensive but it works.

As for nutrients I've always used canna aqua veg A+B for veg and cana aqua flores A+B for flowering, very clean nutes, I only need to change rez between veg and flowering. These nutes also are very stable in terms of ph, rarely shifting out of the desired parameters.

This is your basic setup, obviously there is other bits and bobs you will need, but these are the basics to get you setup.

If you need further assistance or have more questions please fire away

Happy growin


Roll That Poke That Toke That Smoke That!

Is the main purpose of venting the air out to control temperature? Or is there more too it (besides the potential for stagnant air which may lead to mold)?

(in³ - cubic inches)
Like I said, the main problems for me in this are it needs to be very subtle (IE: Can't run ducts) and quiet (more or less limited to a small osculating fan and a carbon filter). As it stands, I have the potential for about 75in³ of passive airflow (will probably end up being higher pressure, so outward airflow) in and out during the 'light' periods, but during the dark periods that would be limited to roughly 10in³ or less of passive airflow (so relatively little turnover in the air)

Since my initial post, I've decided I was expecting too much for my limitations, so my goal is now 2-3 plants instead of the initial 4-6(probably just 2). The hardest part is going to be the ventilation of the heat. I have been leaning towards LED lighting since it is a small area and small grow, but I am also considering CFL after reading some posts here, would ~100w of blue and ~90w of red spectrum be enough for 2 plants, the last thing I would ever want them to do is starve of light (did that once with a plant in my aquarium, it died a horribly painful death (had mid lighting and needed high). Alternatively I could run it 145w blue and 45 red during veg and swap to something like 45blue and 145 red during flowering. Thoughts on this? (Alternatively I could also make something that was 2x 125w grow cfls (one blue one red, could be talked into 2x 250s)). Though I have no idea the heat they would produce, would 2x 250s be more efficient than 8 (2x45, 6x25) basic cfls?

If the CFLs don't output enough I could probably squeeze another 90w or so on either spectrum, but again, heat is an issue, I need to find the best balance, I plan on growing SOG or SCROG (albeit it will be a rather small sea) lol

I know ideally I would go with HID lights, because I am on a budget and its a great choice given that (and its great for growing), but it's just proving a bit difficult without knowing the actual heat generation of the lights and the exact lighting needs. Unless you think

Thanks for the comment BudZilla, i was wondering a bit about the chemicals and you gave me a good starting point

hello again,

Quite a few questions there, gota try and remember them all haha

Well primarily yes, the ventilation is mainly aimed at controlling heat, but it also draws fresh air in by creating a negative pressure, during the process of photosynthesis plants will quickly use up all available co2, and expel oxygen as a by-product. The co2 contains the carbon that is essentially a building block of your plants, so you want as much fresh air in as possible to replenish the co2 supply. It is also worth noting that plants will use waaay more co2 when the lights are OFF, so considering your stated airflow is a lot lower at night, this just won't do, you will probably stunt growth or something, I've never actually experienced a lack of co2.

If your grow room is 5 foot one way, then there is no way on earth 70 cubic inches will even tickle your plants, let alone be sufficient. It will also be trickling out at such a slow rate that the lights WILL heat the air up in their seriously quick, as it is not being exchanged quick enough, CFL or not..

You speak of the oscilating fan, but u also speak of the carbon filter :s

How are you intending on using the carbon filter? You need an extraction fan to draw air through it.

Also I recall you saying you don't want your flatmate knowing about it, positive airflow will throw the scent OUT of your grow room, and its guna stinnnkkk. Lol

With regards to CFL's and LED's, well yes they can provide you with bud, but to get bud worth having you need so many of them, and then your back to square one because they will make they equivalent heat of 1 big hps. (Well not quite as much but you get my drift...)

They also don't provide very good bud, unless all other parameters of the grow are absolutely perfect and you will still need a fair few of them.

Nearly everyone you could possibly speak to on this site will tell you that they started out using CFL's to save cash but fast realised the small amount you save buying it is nothing compared to the huge difference in yield & quality of MH/HPS.
I understand you wouldn't be buying them because of cost, but if you do buy them I will put money on it that after your first crop you will look at what you got, and then come on here and look at some one's grow journal who used HPS, you will feel like you wasted your time. Plus everything takes so much longer under cfl. I don't have any experience with LED, but I can imagine they will give similar results to CFL. I use CFL as side lighting, its brilliant for that!

One of my friends started a CFL in soil. 2 plants. Veg bulb and a flower bulb. Same strain, Same nutes, same light schedules etc, I started 2 weeks later under a 600w hps in a DWC setup, I got more then 3 times what he got, I was finshed 2 weeks before him, and his weed compared to mine was horrible. Light fluffy buds, not many trichome's, I handled an ounce of it and didn't even get sticky fingers!
Where as my bud was sticky as anything, absolutely coated in crystals, and got us both completely STONKED off the first joint
.

I realise none of this changes your situation, but what I'm getting at is if you really put ur head to it, you can make it work. Between everyone on this forum you are bound to get enough help to make a HPS system run in that space, I'm running a 600w hps as we speak in a TINY cupbard that I can't even get inside! Its very do-able


No worries man, here to help, don't take anything I say as 'what you have to do' is your grow mate, you do what suits you best, I'm just offering up what I know on the subject

As far as nutes go, I tried advanced nute package, that was absolutely horrible, complete nightmare, ok if you can afford to sit with your plants and baby sit them, not so good if you actually have a life LOL
I also tried GH nutes, certainly were not to my taste, and provided a somewhat harsh chemically taste, almost as though it hadn't bene flushed (it had).

I will always recommend the canna aqua, has been brilliant for me, no problems at all yet. I also use 'cana rhizotonic', its a root stimulant and a stress reliever, and can be used on fairly young seedlings and fairly young clones. Does wonders for root mass in dwc

But seriously man, you do what's best for your situation, after all, you know your space and expectations better then we do

Have fun and give us a shout if you need any info or help :thumbsup:

Looks like what I was planning is not possible in the way I envisioned it, so lets try something else (from scratch)

Alright, you know my situation and you seem to know your stuff, so here is an abbreviated version of the situation, let me know what you would do.

As you know, it must be quiet, ideally the person who is also living there will have no idea of its existence. I would like to use only about 3-4' of the total closet length.
Ideally I would be using the 3 existing walls (would be lined with mirrors or other reflective surface) with a 4th wall which is either hinged or removable for easy access (its somewhat of a walk in closet).

The 'door' wall if you will, would be able to have exhaust / intake, but it would only be to the remainder of the closet, which is where the carbon filter would be. The closet only connects to my room, which is ok, but I can't exhaust directly into my room as that would be a bit obvious and I can't exhaust to the outside as there is no access, it must be routed through the remainder of the closet (I'm sure I could come up with some reasonable excuse to leave the door open (the other will be sealed). (In short, I can cut up the 'added' wall as much as I want but I don't want to mess with existing installations)

Here is a very basic, 30 second mock up of the floorplan (not to scale) and a 30 second mock up of the closet and some basics (to scale). How would you do it if you were trying to keep the person living across the hall in the dark lol. Ideally, the solution would not involve me punching holes in my wall. If you can make it work with an HPS system, more power to you, I am stumped, but that's partially because I don't know exactly how much heat a 125/250 watt throws off (Also, 2 plants is what I am shooting for).

Also, if you notice the floor plan, there is also a smaller closet, I would perfer to use that, but I am not sure it is possible, if you can make it work, use that, if not, use the one I have been planning for

http://pumafox.com/junk/floorplan.jpg
http://pumafox.com/junk/floorplan2.jpg

For 2 plants, I'd get a 250w hps but considering your situation...

Inline fans are powerful and make a bit of noise. If your closet is going to be running while you aren't there, your roommate might wonder what the humming is. A 100 cfm fan should exchange the air in a small closet about once per minute which is fine for a 250w. There are a few ways to dampen the noise, but I've never had to do that so I can't really comment.

For ventilation, take the cfms of your vent fan and divide in half. That is the area in sq inches that you need to open up in passive intake for maximum efficiency. 4x 4" circles for 100 cfms. (you can use less, but it will make your fan work harder)

Alternately, you can use two inline fans, one for intake and one for exhaust but that raises another problem. The carbon filter will reduce the efficiency of your exhaust fan by as much as 40%, so your intake fan needs to be taken down with a fan controller just below your exhaust for slightly negative pressure.

I see that you're set on doing hydro. I'd suggest visiting the pond section at Lowes, they've got these 2' round black tubs (10 gal) with channels in the bottom that would be perfect for a 250w flood and drain. They carry the water pumps too, having built one I will suggest the 425 gph pump. You're probably going to do DWC though since it's cheaper and easier, in which case I'd use 5 gal buckets instead of an aquarium, just to make water changes less messy... just lift the lid from one bucket and place in the other, freshly changed one. Buckets are cheap at lowes, $2.50 each. ...those 2' tubs are incredibly useful though, I'd get one anyway ($12)

Good luck man!!!

Alright, I see what you are saying, however I am on a budget, would a slightly smaller hole (say 3 3/4") at the bottom for the intake and a 4" hole with a 100 cfm inline centerfugal fan (in a short duct, probably about 1' then the fan (would probably lay it on a top shelf in rubber holder 1' because I am assuming it won't line up right with a shelf)) at the top work? I ask because with a slightly smaller intake hole you would be creating the negative pressure while still being subtle (it's just a hole in a dark closet, nothing crazy running out of it).

For now, lets forget about the carbon filter, if all else fails I will get a big ass stationary unit for my bedroom since I will be smoking in there anyway, and while I love the smell of weed, I don't necessarily always like to smell like it (would also mask the sound of the inline fan coming from my closet )

That's probably best. There are plenty of ways to neutralize the odor of 2 plants without a carbon filter. Where will your exhaust go?

The exhaust will be going essentially into my room lol like I said, the entire 'operation' needs to be confined to this closet so it will literally be dumping the exhaust about 5' above the intake into the same closet (though the door will be open, so it won't get too hot). As you can see, without it having a proper 'escape', the odor can become a problem. (Not too worried about the heat though, I plan on ordering the parts August 21 (the day after I move in) and to not have everything ready until early September (so it will have cooled off a bit).

Like I said, the hardest part about all this is I don't wan't my roommate to find out, if he could know I'd convert my entire room into a grow lol.

(or if it gives you a picture, air goes in the bottom (from the negative pressure caused by exhaust) and goes out the top through a short duct with a fan which rests on a shelf a few feet above and to the left of the intake (where it will hopefully decide to leave the open door).

Oh, I see... you're basically building a box in your closet, venting to and from the closet, and leaving the door open for the heat. Sounds interesting, can't wait to see the build.

Yah, I can't wait either lol. I should be coming up with a final design in a week or so, still so much to learn before starting.

Here is a basic outline of some components I am considering, I am listing them here as much for my benefit of remembering as well as for some feedback, let me know if anything looks out of place or can be got for significantly cheaper somewhere else. I like to hear your thoughts, after all, you have all done this, I have not.

Also, despite advice, I think I do want to try to start with DWC since I am assuming the chemicals are different than soil grows and I really don't want to pay the costs for chemicals twice (correct me if I am wrong please, thanks)

Lighting: (Lighting Total: $157 (could probably get around $130 on ebay))

HPS Grow Light (250w, for flower) - $117
http://htgsupply.com/Product-HTGSupply-250-watt-High-Pressure-Sodium-Grow-Light.asp
HPS / MH Conversion Bulb (250w, for veg) - $40
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-GrowBright-250-Watt-MH-Conversion-Lamp.asp

Exhaust: (Exhaust Total: $135)

100cfm inline 4" exhaust - $130
http://www.iaqsource.com/product.php?product=111037
4" x 25' Flexible duct ($5 - free shipping)
http://www.amazon.com/Flexible-Duct...ref=sr_1_6?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1312250875&sr=1-6

Grow Enclosure: (Enclosure total: $75) (unless I decide to build one)

62" x 36" x 20" mylar reflective Hydroponic Grow Tent - $75 (free shipping)
http://www.amazon.com/LED-Wholesale...3?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1312251084&sr=1-3

Total Thus Far: $367 +- $23 for shipping - $400

Nutrients: I really need help here, I don't know what I need yet but I am trying to budget the build now, can anybody list the essentials and a cost?

DWC Equipment
1x 4-6 gallon tub with lid - ~$15
Rockwoll Cubes - $8
3" net cups - $3 for a few
http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc...Flow=3&catalogId=10053&langId=-1&ddkey=SearchDual Output Aquarium Pump - $0.00 (have)
1/4" vynal airline tubing, check valve, T-valve, couplers - $0.00 (have)
2x 6" bubble walls - $0.00 (have)
PPM Meter - $17
http://www.amazon.com/HM-Digital-TD...A7ZY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1312252346&sr=8-2
PH up and Down - $19 (will get an actual PH meter shortly down the road, but will use what this comes with initially)
http://www.amazon.com/General-Hydro...KWZY/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1312252730&sr=8-1

Total: $ 60

Grand Total: $460 before nutrients

Can you guys go through that and let me know what I am missing / don't need and help me estimate nutrients for a grand grand total of the setup costs? Thanks!

PS: I know initially I was shooting for under $300, but that is clearly not possible anymore, so lets try to make everything under $600 all said and done, and that really is the most I can spend lol (excluding seeds) (money could be saved on exhaust, I'm sure of it, but remember, it has to be QUIET)

My thoughts on nutes for DWC. use supernatural's GRO and BLOOM Aqua. They are so simple. You don't need to do any pH adjusting at all... And in DWC that will be your biggest issue with your nutes is always adjusting the pH. And i never had to use much of it either.. a little goes a long way!

Hi Fox,

Well you've got most things on the list, but I would advise buying your tent and exhaust system first, set that up, get it running, dial your fan in so you get the hang of maintaining temps, then get your lights and add them to the equation, see what difference they make to heat.

To be all honest, I would advise you to buy a bigger fan then the 4". This is your first grow, but if you manage to get to harvest and get the hang of it, I guarantee you will want to do another grow, and I also guarantee you'll want it bigger and better, and things like fans are not something you want to be buying twice (trust me, lots of us have been there).

You can save the money initially buying a cheap fan, but if you buy a more expensive (but better) fan, then should you want to run mh/hps with a cool tube, you can, no messing around. and no laying out hundreds for a new fan and realising your old one is now completely redundant

As posted above, when in DWC territory you want stable nutes that don't throw your ph & EC all over the show, as these are often the difference between a good grow and a happy harvest or one of those 'what did I do wrong?' Harvests lol.

I think its time for you to go shoppin' good times haha

Drop us a line if you need more help, drop us some +rep If you feel our input has helped you.

BudZilla77