CannabisNerd
Well-Known Member
Awesome, thanks for the link! I'll be putting together a hpa system in a month or so and wasn't quite sure on the pump to get, so this helps a bunch. Thanks again
pipe layout and pressure...
- Thread starter muleface
- Start date
muleface
Well-Known Member
hold up before you pull the trigger. I just ordered one. Let me see if its going to work first. It will be in Tuesday. I will install it that night and run it. By work first, i mean something other then end result of my plants...The first pump i ordered was:
https://smile.amazon.com/SHURflo-Industrial-Pump-Model-2088-594-154/dp/B0001FAA5Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1477019903&sr=1-1&keywords=2088-594-154
it only puts out 45-50 psi. which is fine i suppose. I think in these HPA systems, there needs to be some precise design specs or you are not really doing aeroponics. you are just doing hydroponics with a sprayer.
http://aeroponicsdiy.com/make-your-own-high-pressure-aeroponics-system/
this give a high overview of the process, but it really calls for 80-100 psi with droplets in the 40 micron neighborhood. It also wants a solenoid and a Accumulator Tank after the pump. This way you don't have to wait for the pump to build pressure, the solenoid opens up and the accumulator tank is already charged to 100 psi. So just about instant pressure. This keeps the dropplet sizes where you want them. Again, this is my first attempt at this, so maybe creating an idea setup and one that is 80% only provides a negligible difference. I couldn't say. there isn't really a lot out there about this.
my current issue with my pump is it short cycles. it hits the 45 psi and then shuts off, then back on a second later and then back off a second later, and so on. its not the end of the world, it only runs for about 1 minute every 8 minutes or so.
also if you want a timer, check this out. I have one coming tomorrow. it looks awesome, but its pretty inexpensive. so i am cautiously optimistic. apparently you can set it to cycle down to the second. so 55 seconds on 253 seconds off and repeat. not that you would want to do that, but if you needed to you could.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G6O28NA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
going back to my first sentence. I want to see if the pump i ordered will not cycle, it runs at 100 psi and has a bypass built in, so maybe it will work, but I really know very little about what that means, so for 125 bucks its worth trying, if it doesn't work, i can always return it.
Ill keep you posted.
https://smile.amazon.com/SHURflo-Industrial-Pump-Model-2088-594-154/dp/B0001FAA5Y/ref=sr_1_1?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1477019903&sr=1-1&keywords=2088-594-154
it only puts out 45-50 psi. which is fine i suppose. I think in these HPA systems, there needs to be some precise design specs or you are not really doing aeroponics. you are just doing hydroponics with a sprayer.
http://aeroponicsdiy.com/make-your-own-high-pressure-aeroponics-system/
this give a high overview of the process, but it really calls for 80-100 psi with droplets in the 40 micron neighborhood. It also wants a solenoid and a Accumulator Tank after the pump. This way you don't have to wait for the pump to build pressure, the solenoid opens up and the accumulator tank is already charged to 100 psi. So just about instant pressure. This keeps the dropplet sizes where you want them. Again, this is my first attempt at this, so maybe creating an idea setup and one that is 80% only provides a negligible difference. I couldn't say. there isn't really a lot out there about this.
my current issue with my pump is it short cycles. it hits the 45 psi and then shuts off, then back on a second later and then back off a second later, and so on. its not the end of the world, it only runs for about 1 minute every 8 minutes or so.
also if you want a timer, check this out. I have one coming tomorrow. it looks awesome, but its pretty inexpensive. so i am cautiously optimistic. apparently you can set it to cycle down to the second. so 55 seconds on 253 seconds off and repeat. not that you would want to do that, but if you needed to you could.
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B01G6O28NA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
going back to my first sentence. I want to see if the pump i ordered will not cycle, it runs at 100 psi and has a bypass built in, so maybe it will work, but I really know very little about what that means, so for 125 bucks its worth trying, if it doesn't work, i can always return it.
Ill keep you posted.
CannabisNerd
Well-Known Member
Right on man, that's much appreciated. I've played with hpa quite a bit back in the day, like 10 years ago lol. I never quite got it right though. Lots of playing around and had a couple killer crops but it wasn't exactly how I wanted it to run. I had a seloniod and I think a pressure tank? My friend helped me set it up (he was new to it too) and we just kept messing with it until we got a decent spray. No water droplets, more of a fog from the misters.
I'm glad you're doing this because I've been wanting to for ever since then and you're right, there ain't shit for info on a proper build.
Good vibes man, you are ok the right track and seem to be going down the right road.
I use these cycle timers for my dtw systems, they work great but are more expensive, so if you have problems with that timer, check into this one or similar. It does seconds on and off. Don't get the manual one, get the digital if you do, the manual is a bitch to get the right times (it's cheaper though so i tried it first).
Ebay has a seller that has 2 more I believe for 50$which is 50$ cheaper than anywhere else. I got 2 so far and they both are doing what I want.
The the thought of the water slowing down when it hits the 90's and tees etc... is true in a typical plumbing system (actually it's more about turbulence than pressure loss) but with a "looped" manifold; once the manifold is full of water and the pump pressure evens out once all the misters are flowing; the pressure will disperse evenly... but the one issue I see with everyone's manifold designs is they are feeding from one end or the other... you should be feeding from the center most point and you'll get even pressure all the way around... it'll work fine as your results have proven I'm sure.... but it will always work best when fed from the centermost point... look at ez cloners manifolds if you can find a pic of one... if not let me know I'll get u a pic of mine..
CannabisNerd
Well-Known Member
I posted a pic of my lpa cloner manifold on the first page. Agree that having the inlet in the middle is best. But also feel that the less turns of pipe and the shortest length of pipe used is best. If you have a pump that is much bigger than needed, a closed loop manifold would work fine, but if using a pump that isn't overly big for the system, a single line of pipe works wayyyy better. I just built 2 drip manifolds using only a single 3' piece of pipe, capped on both ends with the water inlet in the middle of 4 drip heads. I'm getting 4x the water flow compared to the other closed loop manifold with the same pumps and same amount of drip heads. It's a huge difference .
I think with the aero cloner manifolds it's more about an easy to produce projection molded piece that snaps together than anything... we're honestly splitting hairs at this point, but in a single piece of pipe it's obviously gonna work better because you only have one section to force the water into... it's all situation and need honestly, as with aero cloners you are looking for a more even, not so highly pressurized spray with more volume passing through than actual atomization... you guys are growing using these methods so my input means dick aside from the plumber aspect as I only clone using aero and that's really pretty simple compared to what you guys are doing.... from the plumber pov, i can't really come up with a reason as to why one would be better than the other aside from the feed from the center which we already went over....
Out of curiosity have you ever played with pipe size? My first thought would be to just go with 1/2" but (again reverting to my cloner) when I just checked on my clones earlier I looked at the manifold a little harder than normal due to this thread and noticed that due to the thin-ness of the plastic used the manifolds Id is closer to what 3/4 or 1" pipe Id would be if that means anything... That and I always wondered what size pump was in my 60 site and I just checked n it's over 1000gpm... that's a pretty big pump to circulate 12 gallons of water... but it does work pretty hard in a clone cycle especially when it's running 24/7/365....
I may actually have to build a new manifold for it seeing I clean it so often and I've taken the misters out so many times that a couple don't wanna screw in to easily anymore even using new misters so it's only a matter of time before I have to do something with it... I can only imagine what they charge for a new one..
Out of curiosity have you ever played with pipe size? My first thought would be to just go with 1/2" but (again reverting to my cloner) when I just checked on my clones earlier I looked at the manifold a little harder than normal due to this thread and noticed that due to the thin-ness of the plastic used the manifolds Id is closer to what 3/4 or 1" pipe Id would be if that means anything... That and I always wondered what size pump was in my 60 site and I just checked n it's over 1000gpm... that's a pretty big pump to circulate 12 gallons of water... but it does work pretty hard in a clone cycle especially when it's running 24/7/365....
I may actually have to build a new manifold for it seeing I clean it so often and I've taken the misters out so many times that a couple don't wanna screw in to easily anymore even using new misters so it's only a matter of time before I have to do something with it... I can only imagine what they charge for a new one..
CannabisNerd
Well-Known Member
Agreed mang. And you can build the cloner manifold easily for like 10$. Just use 1/2" pvc, some elbows , some tees and a 1/2" male riser that can screw in to the pump . I doubt you'd even need to glue it. I don't glue mine so it's easy to disassemble . My pump is only 360 or 390gph though which runs 12 misters I believe . Are you sure your pump is 1000gpm or 1000gph? Big pump either way , I bet that creates a nice water bead at that pressure
CannabisNerd
Well-Known Member
The ez clone 60 replacement manifold is about $40
muleface
Well-Known Member
Ok, got the pump in Tuesday, but didn't get to put it in right away. It's in now. I really like it, I jumped from 45 psi to 100 psi. Based on the size of my setup, I run it for 10 seconds, that gives the pump time to ramp up and start straying. I then have it wait 5 minutes before it starts again. My pump is no longer short cycling like it did when i had the 45 psi pump running, it runs for the full 10 seconds. it also is giving must better water distribution in my root beds. Its producing a nice thick fog. For whatever reason my pump is quieter then my last one. But that's not to say its quite, it's not. it's not terrible, but if you are in the room next door you can clearly hear it run. So if you are growing something in an apartment or duplex and don't want your neighbors to hear it, this is not a good option for you.
Some Issues: The pump has to ramp up, meaning it has to pressurize roughly 50 feet of 1/2 pvc piping, yes there is already water in the lines. but it still has to work to get to full pressure. So larger droplets at first, then it gets to the size i'm looking for (i guess) then as it powers down, so more larger droplets while the lines depressurize. How could i resolve this....glad you asked... I will quote a solution...based on what he wrote i can only conclude he is a mad man
This would give you a true HP system, its also more then I can commit to do. Ill see how my current setup works out, but based on the above, i may be better suited to doing a low pressure design. however, i would guess that some of my plants will only get the mist, depending on their locations and distance from the misting heads, so I will comment on that later. I do have a grow journal, I will keep the lows and highs of my progress.
https://www.rollitup.org/Journal/muleface.945867/
not sure if its accessible or not, if you want to view an in depth overview of what i have built, check it out. if you want to see it and can't let me know.
muleface
Well-Known Member
I agree, you can build one for cheap. you just need a 10 bucks in pvc and sprayers. You will also need a drill bit and tap. They have a combo at home depot for around 6 bucks, its super easy, just take your time with the tapping part. or you will not get a clean thread.
As far as gpm goes, gpm doesn't really equal pressure. The submersible pond pumps don't really put out a lot of psi. Most do less then 1 psi. I had one that did like .5 psi or something, it worked great for landscaping nozzles, but not so much for misting nozzles.
CannabisNerd
Well-Known Member
@muleface awesome info brother ! I'm glad to hear that the pump is working , that's excellent . A 10 second spray sounds totally fine to work with as well. I find it crazy that there is so little info on the topic , I haven't even found a book about it that details anything I need to know . Glad to have people like you that do it and report good info . I don't think anyone would be doing Aero if it wasn't for people like you that have the hands on experience and trial and error . Props my man !
Yeah my bad, gph not gpm... but yeah it's the og 60 site, not the newer 64 site one... but it came with a 1057gph pump... I always thought it looked a bit big but never really bothered to check it out but I always noticed it was quite a bit bigger than any other pumps I've bought over the years that I've used for anything and everything I've ever needed to do (in the grow room anyhow), I think the biggest I bought was a couple of 400gph or so that I use for my flood tables....
I have actually made a few diy cloners/manifolds a few years back exactly how you described... I never glued any of my grow room stuff just for the same reason you stated.. I wasn't kidding about the plumber part either, lol...I actually have one of those 27gallon black totes full of 1/2" pvc fittings that I've made things with in my grow rooms over the years that I no longer use or need but the box is there if I get the urge to make something out of pvc...
I do wish I waited a year or 2 before buying one so I coulda got one of the updated square 64 site ones because the 60 site is 6x10 making it like 3' long just about... it's probably almost as big as the 128 or whatever is now... however I probably wouldn't buy another ez cloner, today anyhow... $$$ is always tight but if $ weren't always an issue I wouldn't have a problem buying another, I don't even know how many years it's worked like a champ for me... probably paid for itself 50 times by now but as of late my methods of cloning, and more importantly; my methods of cleaning it have not changed over the years but my success rate isn't as high as it used to be... it was 99.9% forever and I haven't changed anything yet it's dropped down to about 85-90% which still isn't bad but something's amiss... I moved recently so maybe it's the water??? I don't know but I really can't complain... it's held up longer than anything else in my grow rooms... tents have fallen apart, ballasts have blown, all kinds of stuff... but that cloner just keeps kicking...
muleface
Well-Known Member
here are some good websites for aeroponics. These are pulled from NASA's website, i haven't really dug too much into them. But if NASA suggests them, they are probably a good place to start. I have also shot them an email and asked for some research. Maybe they will send me something, who knows.
http://www.nasa.gov/offices/ipp/centers/kennedy/success_stories/Inflatable_Aeroponic_System_BBlinds.html
http://agrihouse.com/aeroponics.php
www.aeroponics.com
www.bio-pharms.com
this is from MIT
http://openag.media.mit.edu/
http://www.nasa.gov/offices/ipp/centers/kennedy/success_stories/Inflatable_Aeroponic_System_BBlinds.html
http://agrihouse.com/aeroponics.php
www.aeroponics.com
www.bio-pharms.com
this is from MIT
http://openag.media.mit.edu/
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muleface
Well-Known Member
apparently this is the stuff they used to grow things in space
http://www.agrihouse.com/secure/shop/item.aspx?itemid=169
I am told martians use this too...
also, am i reading this correctly?
http://www.agrihouse.com/secure/shop/item.aspx?itemid=24
15k for a 2x4 grow space?
http://www.agrihouse.com/secure/shop/item.aspx?itemid=169
I am told martians use this too...
also, am i reading this correctly?
http://www.agrihouse.com/secure/shop/item.aspx?itemid=24
15k for a 2x4 grow space?
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muleface
Well-Known Member
so NASA got back to me. They don't appear to be doing the aeroponic thing anymore or at least not at this time. They did reference me to a Dr. Richard Stoner, apparently he is the father of modern aeroponics.
they also attached this PDF to the reply email. Maybe it will help, but i can't seem to find it as a product for sale, however even if it was, it seem lab grade so outside the scope of what we are doing here. I would guess around 15k.
As i have dug more into this, i am finding more lab/research grade gear. its crazy expensive.
they also attached this PDF to the reply email. Maybe it will help, but i can't seem to find it as a product for sale, however even if it was, it seem lab grade so outside the scope of what we are doing here. I would guess around 15k.
As i have dug more into this, i am finding more lab/research grade gear. its crazy expensive.
muleface
Well-Known Member
so my 100 psi pump works well enough. However, i have 48 - .4mm nozzles. plus about 50 feet of 1/2 pvc so the pressue isn't where it needs to be, i should have gotten an 150 psi pump or maybe larger.
The flowrate of the pump drops to 0.6gpm at 100psi, assuming a perfectly lossless system the nozzles need to deliver less than 0.75gph
http://legacy.shurflo.com/pages/new_industrial/industrial/automotive/doc_sum/8000-812-288.html
http://legacy.shurflo.com/pages/new_industrial/industrial/automotive/doc_sum/8000-812-288.html