Phillips Ceramic Metal Halide: WHATS THE HYPE ?

Mr.Natural

Mr.Natural

Active Member
I'm reading conflicting info need some reviews from growers that actually use these. Is the bulb that much cooler, I read you could touch it while it was on? What about ballast confusion? Is it worth it ?


Thanks for the help.

:peace:
 
Lightguy420

Lightguy420

Well-Known Member
I work for a Lamp Mfg and as far as I know the only thing about the Ceramic Metal Halides is they have a Higher CRI (Color Rendition) and usually are made to run better on Electronic Metal Halide Ballasts. They have many different configurations that encompass "Ceramic Metal Halide:, but i have never heard of any HID lamp that you can just touch while burning... believe me you do that and i am sure you will have no fingerprints for quite a while...lol HPS and MH lamps and ballasts all have specific ANSI Codes and for proper operation you must make sure that the ANSI code of your lamp matches that of the ballast. ie: MH400 ANSI Code: M59/E on the lamp there is usually the Ansi code and then a / E or O which "E" is rated for Enclosed or Lensed fixtures and "O" would be rated for open fixtures or without a Lens. I have used both Ceramic Rated HPS lamps by Philips and then Standard Non Ceramic Lamps and noticed no difference in growth... i think it is all preference of the individual grower.
 
Lightguy420

Lightguy420

Well-Known Member
I've never used EYE lamps but they are well known for their Grow Lamp division and from looking at that spec sheet it is even rated higher than the ones Mr Natural has inquired about... Ceramic HPS lamps have a 82CRI where this one xivex has listed has a CRI of 90....which is almost true Daytight which would be somewhere around 95CRI and 5750K. This EYE lamp is 6500K which is ideal for vegging... so yeah that lamp look perfect for your vegging, but wouldn;t be recommended for Flowering... they have bomb flower lamps as well... you invest in 1 of each and your good to go...
 
Mr.Natural

Mr.Natural

Active Member
Lightguy420 said:
I work for a Lamp Mfg and as far as I know the only thing about the Ceramic Metal Halides is they have a Higher CRI (Color Rendition) and usually are made to run better on Electronic Metal Halide Ballasts. They have many different configurations that encompass "Ceramic Metal Halide:, but i have never heard of any HID lamp that you can just touch while burning... believe me you do that and i am sure you will have no fingerprints for quite a while...lol HPS and MH lamps and ballasts all have specific ANSI Codes and for proper operation you must make sure that the ANSI code of your lamp matches that of the ballast. ie: MH400 ANSI Code: M59/E on the lamp there is usually the Ansi code and then a / E or O which "E" is rated for Enclosed or Lensed fixtures and "O" would be rated for open fixtures or without a Lens. I have used both Ceramic Rated HPS lamps by Philips and then Standard Non Ceramic Lamps and noticed no difference in growth... i think it is all preference of the individual grower.
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Lightguy420 said:
I've never used EYE lamps but they are well known for their Grow Lamp division and from looking at that spec sheet it is even rated higher than the ones Mr Natural has inquired about... Ceramic HPS lamps have a 82CRI where this one xivex has listed has a CRI of 90....which is almost true Daytight which would be somewhere around 95CRI and 5750K. This EYE lamp is 6500K which is ideal for vegging... so yeah that lamp look perfect for your vegging, but wouldn;t be recommended for Flowering... they have bomb flower lamps as well... you invest in 1 of each and your good to go...
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Nice, many thanks. Light guy, I have a small cabinet used only for flowering,do you have a favorite for small set ups? Heat is a major consideration, as is height, only have about 48" total. How much more heat does a 400w over a 250w? My issue is venting the exhaust heat, I can vent the cab plenty, but not the room it vents into.

Thanks

:peace:
 
Lightguy420

Lightguy420

Well-Known Member
No Worries Mr. Natural... Glad to be of service.... Well for a small set up i would def recommend sticking with the 250W... The 400W would probably just be overkill in a small area a 250 watt will cover 3 x 3 feet. These sized areas would be considered the "Primary Growing" areas. These lights will light-up larger areas, but plants placed outside of the Primary Growing area, will stretch and bend toward the light; a phenomenon called phototropism. Keep these areas of coverage in mind when using multiple fixtures. The best results occur when the areas of coverage overlap. Heat could still be a factor but as long as you are venting out of the cabinet and maybe get a fan to move that air once it is out of the cabinet you should be ok.... they say don;t run over 78 degrees...well i live in the desert and i've ran cycles before at 85-87 degrees in the summer months with no problems...
 
Mr.Natural

Mr.Natural

Active Member
Lightguy420 said:
No Worries Mr. Natural... Glad to be of service.... Well for a small set up i would def recommend sticking with the 250W... The 400W would probably just be overkill in a small area a 250 watt will cover 3 x 3 feet. These sized areas would be considered the "Primary Growing" areas. These lights will light-up larger areas, but plants placed outside of the Primary Growing area, will stretch and bend toward the light; a phenomenon called phototropism. Keep these areas of coverage in mind when using multiple fixtures. The best results occur when the areas of coverage overlap. Heat could still be a factor but as long as you are venting out of the cabinet and maybe get a fan to move that air once it is out of the cabinet you should be ok.... they say don;t run over 78 degrees...well i live in the desert and i've ran cycles before at 85-87 degrees in the summer months with no problems...
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Thanks so much Lightguy, I have been torn between 250 or 400 for weeks. And was leaning toward 400, because of the minimal cost difference but the heat factor always had to be weighed. But with you're info I think a 250 now is the answer...

Thanks again

:peace::peace::peace:
 
T

thalboy

Active Member
I use the Phillips CMH bulbs and absolutely prefer them over standard MH bulbs. One of the best reasons to use them is that they fire up on magnetic HPS ballasts, so you don't have to get two ballasts, or a switchable ballast, to get them to work. I've used them for veg, flower, and now I'm using them in combination with an HPS and I think that's where they really shine.

It might run a little bit cooler than other 400w, but it is still WAY too hot to touch.
 
Lightguy420

Lightguy420

Well-Known Member
It's all preference thalboy... If you look at the specs of the Ceramic Metal Halide vs. the Standard Metal Halide (Same Wattage) you will find almost no difference other than the CRI, which is 82 - 90CRI (depending on lamp type) in the CMH compared to somewhere in the 60CRI area for a standard metal halide. CMH lamps were designed mainley for retail applications or high end offices or lobbys where they need a High Color Rendition, such as retail where you want the colors of whatever it is your selling to pop out...go check the spec on the website man... not trying to be a buzzkill but the facts are facts. What wattage you using thalboy? you have the philips part number or product code (which will be on the glass with 6 numbers *****-*??????? Philips does have a horticulture line called Agro Son or something... if you have one of those where did you get it? Those look pretty interesting from the brouchure i've seen on their website...
 
Lightguy420

Lightguy420

Well-Known Member
yeah i wouldn't recommend running a MH on a Magnetic HPS Ballast... although yeah it might work you do run the risk of a potential fire hazard and void all the UL Listing of the ballast in which the mfg. has intended... they make specific magnetic metal halide ballasts and magnetic HPS ballasts for a reason.. ask an electrician... i would only do that if you are using digital... again just me i know everyone marches to beat of their own drum... just passing along what i've learned from being in the lighting industry and working for a Lamp/Ballast Manufacturer.
 
Lightguy420

Lightguy420

Well-Known Member
i bet you have one of their retrofit lamps that is a metal halide that is designed specifically to run on an HPS ballast, huh?... if that is the case then yeah you are good to go.. but still if you check the specs on it you find you actually have less Lumen Output than a standard MH400 lamp.. but the CRI is 85 vs 65 in your CMH lamp... im sure your plants look bomb under that light!
 
T

thalboy

Active Member
Lightguy420 said:
i bet you have one of their retrofit lamps that is a metal halide that is designed specifically to run on an HPS ballast, huh?... if that is the case then yeah you are good to go.. but still if you check the specs on it you find you actually have less Lumen Output than a standard MH400 lamp.. but the CRI is 85 vs 65 in your CMH lamp... im sure your plants look bomb under that light!
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Yeah, they are retro fit. Specifically says to run them on an HPS ballast. I think they do give off slightly less lumens than standard MH bulbs, but they are supposed to have a better spectrum and produce more UV-B, which is great for trichome and THC development. I'm going to copy and paste the info I read before getting my first CMH bulb, which was about two years ago.

View attachment 1049280

Philips Ceramic Metal Halide HPS-Retro White (CMH) (HPS> <CMH)
250 & 400 Watt Uses HPS Ballast, 20-150 watt on other pages
http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmed18.htm
international / world wide shipping
How was CMH Invented.
its the Arc tube of HPS and the Gases of Metal halide Basically.. and it created something totally new..
theres a few reasons it hasn't come to our Market faster but thats great all the bugs are out..

CMH INFO
Philips Ceramic Metal Halide MasterColor is available in
20-400 watts
20-150 watt PCMH's run on Pulsed start Metal Halide Ballasts Only
250-400 are avail in PS MH or HPS retro..
(we chose HPS retro for many reasons for horti)
the 250 and 400 "HPS Retro White Ceramic Metal Halide" are specifically designed for use in HPS Magnetic Core Ballasts..
cmh bulbs will run on a electronic ballast only if that electronic ballasts Specifically says for use with Ceramic Bulb on the actual ballasts..
actually cmh like the low Freq of Mag core ballasts over High Freq Electronic ballasts.
there preferred range is 144-240Hz mag core ballasts is 60hz



Ceramic Metal Halide ( CMH ) competes and Whomps the EYE Hortilux Blue (MT400D/HOR/HTL - BLUE)
comparing the 400 horizontals.. as the vertical 400 and both vertical and horizontal 250 cmh has 20K hours 5k longer than 400 WOW!

.............................. ...EYE-BLUE..........CMH
Ballast....................... .MH-Probe..........HPS (easy conversion for hps users)
Price .........................$90-100............50-70
Life.......................... ..12,000Hrs.........15,000Hrs
Initial Lumens...............29,000... ..........34,800
Mean Lumens ..............22,000.......... ...29,600
Lumen maintenance.......64%......... .......85%

Now when you take the last 4 lines and really look at that your actually getting Twice the lamp for half the cost..

not only do you get more initial and Mean lumen's a longer life and more usable life (IE 85%)
the CMH has higher Red to Blue ratio and thats what we WANT to promote better Flowering

CMH doesn't Throw Heat like MH or HPS especially MH
it just so happens the arc tube (from the HPS side of the lamp) Blocks and absorbs allot of that energy and instead of radiating it it holds it and releases almost all up.. * Ya cmh does still throw some heat but Nothing compared to Equal Wattage in MH or HPS..

The Philips Retro white is also open Fixture Rated the EYE Blue IS NOT>>
you need to follow those ratings on your lamps if it states Enclosed fixture you better use a fixture rated Enclosed.

now you say but neither have High lumen's like my HPS Extreme.
ya thats because if you notice the SPD on the HPS you will see they increse the Lumen rating by creating more Yellow Light But thats not what we want..
in short hps dumps about IMPHO 50% of its Total outputted energy where the plant cant absorb it. where as cmh when you compare its Whole output about 25% about wasted like HPS (that 50% and 25% is not fully wasted just 95% of it.. in that range)


all below information is direct from advancedtechlighting.com Web site

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You can probably make more sense of that than I can. All I know is that the plants love it, and yeah, the pictures come out pretty good too. :)
 
Lightguy420

Lightguy420

Well-Known Member
lol... yeah unfortunately i can, but that is cool man it's all for information purpose right and to help one another.. cool to see someone is putting these lamps to the test... Wasn't the intent of the lamp but if it works and the plants love it i wouldn't change it either...
 
Mr.Natural

Mr.Natural

Active Member
Hey Lightguy, I'm wondering what the power usage is on one 400w compared to another 400w. The wattage rating is power right? I have all those CFL's running and will replace them with an HPS or CMH, but as long as I stay around the same wattage, it should be the same power drain?
 
samoka_loda

samoka_loda

Member
xivex said:
I'm curious how that bulb stacks up against the Hortilux Blue mH:
http://www.eyehortilux.com/tb/blue/EQS-N-52-78-57816.pdf

Anyone have any experience with bulb these bulbs or care to comment?

Thanks!
Click to expand...
I am using a similar bulb which is a ceramic metal halide and it's a newer bulb that I thought I would try because of the Powerball inside instead of the regular pop can looking ceramic metal halide I am having tremendous and great results with what I call the Powerball ceramic metal halide...
 

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samoka_loda

samoka_loda

Member
To all that has commented or are in this specific conversation I'm going to speak from experience and say that 400 600 or even $315 Watt cmhs are perfect and ideal for growing a good size crop but for a guy like me who may grow one or two plants I speak from experience saying that 150 w standard fixture bulb with you know a special ballast works perfectly fine vegging my plants and it feels like it seems like that using CMH for veg I get the full potential out of them before they go into flower and then I switch to LED but 150 watts even 100 w CMH bulb will grow plants just fine 12 to 14 inches away from plants
 
Herb & Suds

Herb & Suds

Well-Known Member
samoka_loda said:
I am using a similar bulb which is a ceramic metal halide and it's a newer bulb that I thought I would try because of the Powerball inside instead of the regular pop can looking ceramic metal halide I am having tremendous and great results with what I call the Powerball ceramic metal halide...
Click to expand...
And another decade old thread is dragged out :wall:
 
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