Ph issues with Lucas Formula any advice???

Great looking set-up Pitbull. I also ran the lucas formula for a while. I don't recommend the 0-5-10 ratio as veg, I used it as well, and I'm pretty certain that Lucas himself said that he uses only 0-8-10 the whole grow, I found no problems with that in veg. Your pH should not be rising like that. These nutes have pH buffers in them. Possibly a few things: your medium is pH basic and causing it to rise. Did you rinse/soak your medium with pH 5.8 water initially? Are you using other supps you didn't tell us about, many of these can create this problem. Did you let your nutes stabilize for a day before pH adjusting and putting them in your set-up, I find that leaving my water out for a day helps this before I put in the nutes, then I let the solution stabilize overnight, then pH adjust. Also, if you don't already use air stones in the res to oxygenate the water, while leveling temperature, and keeping your nutrients suspended in solution-they have the pH buffers. I feel that the Lucas formula is a safe bet as a nutrient formula, never had any catastophes with it, but after a while nitrogen deficiencies appeared before 6 weeks. When I purchased my nutes I bought the grow as well and as a result of not wanting to waste $120 I began experimenting with GH's formulas on their website, and now go 15-10-5 for veg with 10mL fulvic per gallon, 10-10-10 for week 0-2, 5-10-15 for week 3-4, and 0-10-20 week 5-6, flush after. I use Liquid Kool Bloom and Dry Kool Bloom as supplements, no Floralicious plus as I use H2O2. The flavor is better in my opinion, as is resin production. I use 2.5 mL per gallon LKB week 0-2, 10 mL LKB week 3-4, 1.25 grams per gallon PKB week 5-6. Some claim hermaphroditing can occur with these supplements, use at your descretion. 680 is not high, i run 1000-1200 at .5 with no burn, and I've tested some ratios in DWC buckets up to 2.6 EC without problem, but don't have the guts to try that in my trays, but all depends on your strain, i have indica dominant. Hope that helps, I'm no guru, just wanted to give you a jumpstart on the learning curve of the 3 part formula. I found it aggravating how little experimentation has been tried with the 3 part system, probably due to the simplicity of the Lucas formula. Seems that having to add one extra part is too tedious for the majority.

Rick Ratlin said:

Great looking set-up Pitbull. I also ran the lucas formula for a while. I don't recommend the 0-5-10 ratio as veg, I used it as well, and I'm pretty certain that Lucas himself said that he uses only 0-8-10 the whole grow, I found no problems with that in veg. Your pH should not be rising like that. These nutes have pH buffers in them. Possibly a few things: your medium is pH basic and causing it to rise. Did you rinse/soak your medium with pH 5.8 water initially? Are you using other supps you didn't tell us about, many of these can create this problem. Did you let your nutes stabilize for a day before pH adjusting and putting them in your set-up, I find that leaving my water out for a day helps this before I put in the nutes, then I let the solution stabilize overnight, then pH adjust. Also, if you don't already use air stones in the res to oxygenate the water, while leveling temperature, and keeping your nutrients suspended in solution-they have the pH buffers. I feel that the Lucas formula is a safe bet as a nutrient formula, never had any catastophes with it, but after a while nitrogen deficiencies appeared before 6 weeks. When I purchased my nutes I bought the grow as well and as a result of not wanting to waste $120 I began experimenting with GH's formulas on their website, and now go 15-10-5 for veg with 10mL fulvic per gallon, 10-10-10 for week 0-2, 5-10-15 for week 3-4, and 0-10-20 week 5-6, flush after. I use Liquid Kool Bloom and Dry Kool Bloom as supplements, no Floralicious plus as I use H2O2. The flavor is better in my opinion, as is resin production. I use 2.5 mL per gallon LKB week 0-2, 10 mL LKB week 3-4, 1.25 grams per gallon PKB week 5-6. Some claim hermaphroditing can occur with these supplements, use at your descretion. 680 is not high, i run 1000-1200 at .5 with no burn, and I've tested some ratios in DWC buckets up to 2.6 EC without problem, but don't have the guts to try that in my trays, but all depends on your strain, i have indica dominant. Hope that helps, I'm no guru, just wanted to give you a jumpstart on the learning curve of the 3 part formula. I found it aggravating how little experimentation has been tried with the 3 part system, probably due to the simplicity of the Lucas formula. Seems that having to add one extra part is too tedious for the majority.

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lucas calls for a 0/8/16 and I found that 5/8/16 worked very well and ph would hold at 5.8 for days. I no longer use lucas with GH I now use advanced nutes much better
nutes

its possible with your water @ 280ppm you dont need the hardwater GH nutes. I'm using the lucas formula with just GH Micro+bloom and the ph should stabilize somewhere around 5.8-6. I only add nutes when ppms drop by about 40%-50% and by that stage the PH is still around 5.8-6, it never drifts much even when the plants have drank lots of water. Maybe just try the standard non-hardwater nutes (as this will affect the ph differently) and see if it stabilizes things. Once used properly the Lucas formula works perfect, no need for any other nutes. I started my seedlings on about 300ppm and at 4weeks in veg they are now on the full 0/8/16, anything lower Lucas only recommended for CFL grows. What week are the plants in? Maybe boost the ppms as this will help to stabilize the PH as afaik they contain some ph stabilizer chems that help keep ph down over time.

Rick Ratlin said:

Great looking set-up Pitbull. I also ran the lucas formula for a while. I don't recommend the 0-5-10 ratio as veg, I used it as well, and I'm pretty certain that Lucas himself said that he uses only 0-8-10 the whole grow, I found no problems with that in veg. Your pH should not be rising like that. These nutes have pH buffers in them. Possibly a few things: your medium is pH basic and causing it to rise. Did you rinse/soak your medium with pH 5.8 water initially? Are you using other supps you didn't tell us about, many of these can create this problem. Did you let your nutes stabilize for a day before pH adjusting and putting them in your set-up, I find that leaving my water out for a day helps this before I put in the nutes, then I let the solution stabilize overnight, then pH adjust. Also, if you don't already use air stones in the res to oxygenate the water, while leveling temperature, and keeping your nutrients suspended in solution-they have the pH buffers. I feel that the Lucas formula is a safe bet as a nutrient formula, never had any catastophes with it, but after a while nitrogen deficiencies appeared before 6 weeks. When I purchased my nutes I bought the grow as well and as a result of not wanting to waste $120 I began experimenting with GH's formulas on their website, and now go 15-10-5 for veg with 10mL fulvic per gallon, 10-10-10 for week 0-2, 5-10-15 for week 3-4, and 0-10-20 week 5-6, flush after. I use Liquid Kool Bloom and Dry Kool Bloom as supplements, no Floralicious plus as I use H2O2. The flavor is better in my opinion, as is resin production. I use 2.5 mL per gallon LKB week 0-2, 10 mL LKB week 3-4, 1.25 grams per gallon PKB week 5-6. Some claim hermaphroditing can occur with these supplements, use at your descretion. 680 is not high, i run 1000-1200 at .5 with no burn, and I've tested some ratios in DWC buckets up to 2.6 EC without problem, but don't have the guts to try that in my trays, but all depends on your strain, i have indica dominant. Hope that helps, I'm no guru, just wanted to give you a jumpstart on the learning curve of the 3 part formula. I found it aggravating how little experimentation has been tried with the 3 part system, probably due to the simplicity of the Lucas formula. Seems that having to add one extra part is too tedious for the majority.

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Thanks for the compliment and very helpful reply!!! I soaked my rockwool cube in water ph'd at 5.5 but didn't do anything to the hydroton.. I never new I was supposed to... I'm vegging my plants under cfl's before putting them under the 600 watt hps for flowering.. Which is why I'm using the Lucas Formula at 5ml micro-10ml bloom... My understanding of the Lucas Formula is if your vegging under cfl's u use it at 5ml micro-10ml bloom and don't switch to the 8-16 until flowering under hps.. is this right?? My ballast offers a dimmable feature to help the plants transition to the new light..

hellraizer30 said:

lucas calls for a 0/8/16 and I found that 5/8/16 worked very well and ph would hold at 5.8 for days. I no longer use lucas with GH I now use advanced nutes much better
nutes

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Thanks for the help!!

karmeron said:

its possible with your water @ 280ppm you dont need the hardwater GH nutes. I'm using the lucas formula with just GH Micro+bloom and the ph should stabilize somewhere around 5.8-6. I only add nutes when ppms drop by about 40%-50% and by that stage the PH is still around 5.8-6, it never drifts much even when the plants have drank lots of water. Maybe just try the standard non-hardwater nutes (as this will affect the ph differently) and see if it stabilizes things. Once used properly the Lucas formula works perfect, no need for any other nutes. I started my seedlings on about 300ppm and at 4weeks in veg they are now on the full 0/8/16, anything lower Lucas only recommended for CFL grows. What week are the plants in? Maybe boost the ppms as this will help to stabilize the PH as afaik they contain some ph stabilizer chems that help keep ph down over time.

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So should I purchase a RO system?? The problem with this is I already bought 2 gallons of GH Micro HW online(No returns).. So it would suck to have wasted my cash lol... On a good note I upped the nutes last night and when I check the res today they seem to be holding steady at 5.8, But I don't want to get my hopes up to early lol.. With my luck the ph will shot up by this afternoon lol...

pitbull420 said:

So should I purchase a RO system?? The problem with this is I already bought 2 gallons of GH Micro HW online(No returns).. So it would suck to have wasted my cash lol... On a good note I upped the nutes last night and when I check the res today they seem to be holding steady at 5.8, But I don't want to get my hopes up to early lol.. With my luck the ph will shot up by this afternoon lol...

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An RO system could be good if your tap water is pretty bad, though costly, can you buy decent RO water anywhere cheap?
Let us know if she holds steady after upping the nutes At the start I had to add ph down before I started using a decent dosage of nutes, so I do think the nutes definitely help in steadying the PH. If you already bought a lot of nutes I'd give them a longer try out and see if they will work with your water, im sure the system will balance as time goes by, the lucas formula is pretty much foolproof

How are the plants looking?

your tap water ppm is fine no need for a RO system unless you want to buy it.
ive seen and used worse, and are you on a well? either way you probibly
dont need micro for hard water, but I would have my water tested before
you change. any city water supply store test water and its normally free
and not a uncommon thing to have done

karmeron said:

An RO system could be good if your tap water is pretty bad, though costly, can you buy decent RO water anywhere cheap?
Let us know if she holds steady after upping the nutes At the start I had to add ph down before I started using a decent dosage of nutes, so I do think the nutes definitely help in steadying the PH. If you already bought a lot of nutes I'd give them a longer try out and see if they will work with your water, im sure the system will balance as time goes by, the lucas formula is pretty much foolproof

How are the plants looking?

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This is the one I've been experimenting with.. I took it a couple days ago but not much has changed since then..It's Blue Mystic from Nirvana.. U can see the leaves cupping from the ph issues I've been having but the new growth is looking great..

yeh its looking good, the ph doesnt seem to be affecting them much

A few things; your tap water sucks. I had similar water and moved to RO. I've found that GH nutes aren't that stable when it comes to pH so expect swings to some degree (usually up). Lastly, improper feeding levels will cause pH swings and I think the lucas formula is too strong.

homebrewer said:

A few things; your tap water sucks. I had similar water and moved to RO. I've found that GH nutes aren't that stable when it comes to pH so expect swings to some degree (usually up). Lastly, improper feeding levels will cause pH swings and I think the lucas formula is too strong.

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lucas being to strong um I leen to it being to week!! everytime I try that 0/8/16 he claims is a win all I ran into a nitrogen def. and thats
the reason I went to 5/8/16 with GH. either way I do agree with the PH swings with GH and thats why I went to advanced nutes and now
it would take a act of got to get my PH move from 5.8 once set. RO would be ideal but his ppm in his water aint perfect but not to hard
to adjust his ppms to compansate

i use gh with my water @70-90ppm,ph 7.1 from the tap and with the lucas formula the ph barely moves from 5.8, not sure why you say GH is bad for ph?? i havent used ph down or up sice the first feed over month ago.

I agree though that lucas formula can be a bit weak for some strains though

karmeron said:

i use gh with my water @70-90ppm,ph 7.1 from the tap and with the lucas formula the ph barely moves from 5.8, not sure why you say GH is bad for ph?? i havent used ph down or up sice the first feed over month ago.

I agree though that lucas formula can be a bit weak for some strains though

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Im runing mainly to strains and both show signs of def with anything lower than 1100ppm so I shoot for 1300ppm and set ph at 5.8
and thing are awsome with advanced nutes but with GH I would get PH swings and it seemed everyday I was adding down.
the lucas with my water on the 0/8/16 was like 800ppm with GH and with 5/8/16 it was 1000ppm and he say not to use supliment
so lucas/ GH didnt work for me

hellraizer30 said:

Im runing mainly to strains and both show signs of def with anything lower than 1100ppm so I shoot for 1300ppm and set ph at 5.8
and thing are awsome with advanced nutes but with GH I would get PH swings and it seemed everyday I was adding down.
the lucas with my water on the 0/8/16 was like 800ppm with GH and with 5/8/16 it was 1000ppm and he say not to use supliment
so lucas/ GH didnt work for me

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wow it only came out at 800ppm@ 0-8-16, mine comes out around 1100-1200ppm with no ph down or up needed,strange

yah without changing his mix or adding sups I could never get what he said It should come out to
so you can understand why that didnt work for me

hellraizer30 said:

lucas being to strong um I leen to it being to week!! everytime I try that 0/8/16 he claims is a win all I ran into a nitrogen def. and thats
the reason I went to 5/8/16 with GH. either way I do agree with the PH swings with GH and thats why I went to advanced nutes and now
it would take a act of got to get my PH move from 5.8 once set. RO would be ideal but his ppm in his water aint perfect but not to hard
to adjust his ppms to compansate

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0-8-16 is about 1.8 EC and your feedling levels at 5-8-16 equals about 2.2 EC. Both are way too high and I have a feeling you probably misdiagnosed nutrient burn or an excess of potassium as a nitrogen deficiency.

To the OP - after I switched to RO, my GH pH stability was a little better so don't discount your crappy tap water as the culprit.

it only came out at 800ppm@ 0-8-16, mine comes out around 1100-1200ppm with no ph down or up needed,strange

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Hellraizer is on the .5 conversion or Nacl scale, you're on the 442 scale or .7 conversion.

homebrewer said:

0-8-16 is about 1.8 EC and your feedling levels at 5-8-16 equals about 2.2 EC. Both are way too high and I have a feeling you probably misdiagnosed nutrient burn or an excess of potassium as a nitrogen deficiency.

To the OP - after I switched to RO, my GH pH stability was a little better so don't discount your crappy tap water as the culprit.
Hellraizer is on the .5 conversion or Nacl scale, you're on the 442 scale or .7 conversion.

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could be a easy misdiagnoses but it was 100% nitrogen def.

Your ph swings are due to the fact that you never conditioned your hydroton. You have to soak new, never used hydroton for several days to get the PH to stabilize. I learned this the hard way. Even after rinsing the shit out it my PH would go from 5.8 to 6.3+ overnight. Just keep knocking your rez ph down and it will eventually stabilize. Probably take about two weeks.

Trust me on the hydroton PHing prior to use. I am currently using about 300 liters of the stuff right now. The last 100 liter conditioning took more than a week and I ended up using about 2 cups of PH down in a 50 gallon conditioning tub.

Don't try to rigidly follow "the formula". Monitor your PPM's with your rez topped off and add a little balanced nutrients when the PPM drops below where you want it to be. After two weeks, just dump and start over. You will get a feel for how long a rez can last given how many plants you have and how big they are. For me, my 50 gallon veg rez lasts a month with only a little nutrient top offs. Full on flower though, my girls drink 25 gallons of water in 3 days! I unchained myself from my rez by putting piping in a 25 gallon storage tote full of 1/4 strength nutes at a PH of 4.5. Every fill cycle the top off tank adds what is needed to the Rez. PPM's stay constant as does the PH. I actually wish I could get the PH to swing a little more. Anyways, I'm prattling on and on. Its your hydroton dude but an RO system should be your next purchase.

hellraizer30 said:

could be a easy misdiagnoses but it was 100% nitrogen def.

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Just to compare and contrast here, when I used GH, I only used 4-5mls of micro per gallon and below is a pic of a plant at day 60, and this is my 'heavy feeder' too. Less is more when feeding.