Oxgentated water for plant growth?

OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Aqua Man said:
I mean low oxygen also leads to reduction in beneficial bacteria and others also opening it up to infection so that point is correct. But it's not actually anaerobic conditions or bacteria
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The bad bacteria that cause root rot are anaerobic and that's why they flourish in oxygen deprived conditions like are caused by overwatering and poor drainage. They use up any oxygen they can get and that's why the O+ molecule is so effective against them. Kinda like my dugout water. Now that it's summer and the ice is gone our water is clear and has very little smell. All winter it was grey and stinky because I don't have a decent air stone on the air line to the dugout. Going to fix that before next winter. Borrow my neighbour's little boat and use a grapple to get the air line up then attach a 50' roll of that weeper hose for the garden to the end and a chunk of steel to hold it down to the bottom near my intake. Makes millions of tiny bubbles that mostly disappear into the water before reaching the surface 12' up. We had one on before and it did a great job.

To have a bath you had to add a shot glass of 35% peroxide or bleach to the water or it sucked to be in there. Leaves a black ring around the tub if you don't use that too. :(

Good bacteria are aerobic and flourish when there's lots of O2 in the soil or water.

A little Wikipedia search . . .

An anaerobic organism or anaerobe is any organism that does not require oxygen for growth. It may react negatively or even die if free oxygen is present. In contrast, an aerobic organism (aerobe) is an organism that requires an oxygenated environment. Anaerobes may be unicellular (e.g. protozoans,[1] bacteria[2]) or multicellular.[3]
 
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Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
The bad bacteria that cause root rot are anaerobic and that's why they flourish in oxygen deprived conditions like are caused by overwatering and poor drainage. They use up any oxygen they can get and that's why the O+ molecule is so effective against them. Kinda like my dugout water. Now that it's summer and the ice is gone our water is clear and has very little smell. All winter it was grey and stinky because I don't have a decent air stone on the air line to the dugout. Going to fix that before next winter. Borrow my neighbour's little boat and use a grapple to get the air line up then attach a 50' roll of that weeper hose for the garden to the end and a chunk of steel to hold it down to the bottom near my intake. Makes millions of tiny bubbles that mostly disappear into the water before reaching the surface 12' up. We had one on before and it did a great job.

To have a bath you had to add a shot glass of 35% peroxide or bleach to the water or it sucked to be in there. Leaves a black ring around the tub if you don't use that too. :(

Good bacteria are aerobic and flourish when there's lots of O2 in the soil or water.

A little Wikipedia search . . .

An anaerobic organism or anaerobe is any organism that does not require oxygen for growth. It may react negatively or even die if free oxygen is present. In contrast, an aerobic organism (aerobe) is an organism that requires an oxygenated environment. Anaerobes may be unicellular (e.g. protozoans,[1] bacteria[2]) or multicellular.[3]
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The most common root rot (pythium) is not bacterial nor fungus it has been misclassified for many years and not anaerobic.
 
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Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
The bad bacteria that cause root rot are anaerobic and that's why they flourish in oxygen deprived conditions like are caused by overwatering and poor drainage. They use up any oxygen they can get and that's why the O+ molecule is so effective against them. Kinda like my dugout water. Now that it's summer and the ice is gone our water is clear and has very little smell. All winter it was grey and stinky because I don't have a decent air stone on the air line to the dugout. Going to fix that before next winter. Borrow my neighbour's little boat and use a grapple to get the air line up then attach a 50' roll of that weeper hose for the garden to the end and a chunk of steel to hold it down to the bottom near my intake. Makes millions of tiny bubbles that mostly disappear into the water before reaching the surface 12' up. We had one on before and it did a great job.

To have a bath you had to add a shot glass of 35% peroxide or bleach to the water or it sucked to be in there. Leaves a black ring around the tub if you don't use that too. :(

Good bacteria are aerobic and flourish when there's lots of O2 in the soil or water.

A little Wikipedia search . . .

An anaerobic organism or anaerobe is any organism that does not require oxygen for growth. It may react negatively or even die if free oxygen is present. In contrast, an aerobic organism (aerobe) is an organism that requires an oxygenated environment. Anaerobes may be unicellular (e.g. protozoans,[1] bacteria[2]) or multicellular.[3]
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That's what I'm trying to say they generally do not do well in oygenated media. Yet you still see root rot in well oxygenated hydro systems and soils. It's not the anaerobic bacteria. It's the decline in beneficial bacteria that leave the roots susceptible to infection. It's literally the root and plant health is comprised by over watering and low oxygen which leads to infection. Not the increase of anaerobic bacteria
 
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Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
The cooler temps slow down the infection. Not because of higher o2 but because of metabolism and reproduction of the pathogen.

I hope you know me well enough that you know I'm not trying to be argumentative but rather debate and am absolutely open to being informed otherwise. I'm a stubborn old sole but I am respectful and open to learning if I have it wrong.
 
xtsho

xtsho

Well-Known Member
A pump on the bottom of a reservoir pointed up oxygenates better than air stones. The action of the water rolling on the surface gets more oxygen into the solution. But that wouldn't really work for DWC since you want the bubbles breaking the surface and creating small droplets of water. But as far as oxygenating a reservoir a pump on the bottom is the way to go. You can use a small one on the bottom of a five gallon bucket. That's how I mix my nutes. My reservoir has a small pump on the bottom.

 
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Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
xtsho said:
A pump on the bottom of a reservoir pointed up oxygenates better than air stones. The action of the water rolling on the surface gets more oxygen into the solution. But that wouldn't really work for DWC since you want the bubbles breaking the surface and creating small droplets of water. But as far as oxygenating a reservoir a pump on the bottom is the way to go. You can use a small one on the bottom of a five gallon bucket. That's how I mix my nutes. My reservoir has a small pump on the bottom.

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I wouldn't necessarily say better but I wouldn't necessarily say worse either.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Aqua Man said:
I mean low oxygen also leads to reduction in beneficial bacteria and others also opening it up to infection so that point is correct. But it's not actually anaerobic conditions or bacteria
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I think there's a little confusion about the terminology here.

Low or no oxygen is an anaerobic condition by definition and the bacteria etc that thrive there are considered anaerobic. Like the conditions that occur when prolonged overwatering causes all the O2 to be used up and will no longer support the good, aerobic bacteria so the bad ones begin to multiply rapidly. Both are always present and when conditions switch to favour one then that one wins.

Peroxide can wipe the bad buggers out but if anaerobic conditions persist they'll be back. Use more porous medium and change watering method to keep the whole root zone aerobic and things will work a lot better.

I've never had any kind of root rot in my potted plants but I tend to underwater if anything. Out of 50 DWC grows I only had root rot twice and both times it was when I used clones that had rooted in a medium with real dirt in it. Never with the ones rooted in soilless like the Sunshine #4 I used to use nor the ones in the ProMix HP I've been using for almost 10 years now. I've always run my DWC sterile and beat back the root rot both times with heavier doses of peroxide. From 0.5ml/L of 35% twice a week for maintenance up to 8-10ml/L daily when killing the rot. Hardly affected my yields either time.

That was before making a chiller then no peroxide at all but temps in the tubs were 65-68F all the time. I've never used beneficials in DWC.

There's more than one kind of root rot and they all get their day in the spotlight when conditions go their way.

:peace:
 
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Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
I think there's a little confusion about the terminology here.

Low or no oxygen is an anaerobic condition by definition and the bacteria etc that thrive there are considered anaerobic. Like the conditions that occur when prolonged overwatering causes all the O2 to be used up and will no longer support the good, aerobic bacteria so the bad ones begin to multiply rapidly. Both are always present and when conditions switch to favour one then that one wins.

Peroxide can wipe the bad buggers out but if anaerobic conditions persist they'll be back. Use more porous medium and change watering method to keep the whole root zone aerobic and things will work a lot better.

I've never had any kind of root rot in my potted plants but I tend to underwater if anything. Out of 50 DWC grows I only had root rot twice and both times it was when I used clones that had rooted in a medium with real dirt in it. Never with the ones rooted in soilless like the Sunshine #4 I used to use nor the ones in the ProMix HP I've been using for almost 10 years now. I've always run my DWC sterile and beat back the root rot both times with heavier doses of peroxide. From 0.5ml/L of 35% twice a week for maintenance up to 8-10ml/L daily when killing the rot. Hardly affected my yields either time.

That was before making a chiller then no peroxide at all but temps in the tubs were 65-68F all the time. I've never used beneficials in DWC.

There's more than one kind of root rot and they all get their day in the spotlight when conditions go their way.

:peace:
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Yes this is where the confusion is.
Anaerobic by definition is an area void of free oxygen. Not low in oxygen.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anaerobic

What I'm saying it it's not the bacteria that case root rot. It's not a bacterial disease.

Plant health and roots suffer as well as aerobic bacteria. This decline in population of beneficial bacteria essentially lowers the plants immunity to disease and with the plants roots and health declining because of insufficient o2 levels this compounds the issue. This makes the plant very susceptible to pythium (root rot) it's not a bacteria or fungus and is the most common form of root rot. This is why you see root rot even in highly oxygenated mediums. It's almost always present and will attack unhealthy root systems. They become unhealthy because if the lack of 02 and pythium takes hold. It's not because of anaerobic bacteria.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium

Anaerobic bacteria don't really like oxygen at all even in low levels.

If it were true that anaerobic bacteria were the cause all we would have to do is oxygenate the medium and the root rot would go away. But this is not the case.
 
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Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
Renfro said:
That's an partially incorrect statement, it is fungal. Look up Pythium, that is the cause of root rot.

Pythium-induced root rot is a common crop disease. When the organism kills newly emerged or emerging seedlings, it is known as damping off,
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It's not wrong. Pythium was previously and mistakenly classified as fungi they are not. I understand what I'm saying goes against what we have learned for a long time so thats going to make this a hard convo. I'm good with that and would rather take the time to go back and forth with peers to get us all the correct info. Even if it means I'm wrong.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythium
 
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Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
There are bacteria such as Bacillus amyloliquefaciens that have shown to attack fungi and oomycetes. These have been used in agriculture for some time now. In fact that is the strain used in several hydroponic and soil innoculants sold to cannabis growers for that purpose.

Contrary to common belief root rot is not caused by bacteria. It's cause is weak susceptible new roots and damaged unhealthy roots. The root cause is often lack of oxygen leading to unhealthy roots. The lack of oxygen also can have an effect on the bacteria such as the one I listed that provides protection by killing off pythium in a kind of symbiotic relationship.

So like I said its not anaerobic bacteria that is the culprit here.

I am fully accepting and welcome a debate over this. I'm not a microbiologist so help for or against the statement is welcome. Please don't feel the need to hold back.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Aqua Man said:
I am fully accepting and welcome a debate over this. I'm not a microbiologist so help for or against the statement is welcome. Please don't feel the need to hold back.
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I'm trained as a chemist and not a biologist, micro or otherwise, so all I know is don't let things get and stay soggy or some nasty shit is gonna kill your roots and screw up your plants.

It's bacteria and fungi that cause decay which is great in the compost pile but bad in your grow room. Not all are anaerobic or it wouldn't be common practice to turn the pile over to get air into it.

Hardly worthy of debate imo and my interest in delving deeper into this particular subject and it's finer points is rapidly waning.

I think we can all agree that compacted, soggy medium is bad and loose well drained medium is good. 'Nuff said. :)

:peace:
 
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Aqua Man

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
I'm trained as a chemist and not a biologist, micro or otherwise, so all I know is don't let things get and stay soggy or some nasty shit is gonna kill your roots and screw up your plants.

It's bacteria and fungi that cause decay which is great in the compost pile but bad in your grow room. Not all are anaerobic or it wouldn't be common practice to turn the pile over to get air into it.

Hardly worthy of debate imo and my interest in delving deeper into this particular subject and it's finer points is rapidly waning.

I think we can all agree that compacted, soggy medium is bad and loose well drained medium is good. 'Nuff said. :)

:peace:
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Im good with that
 
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