organic soil ph and nutrient inbalance (experienced opinions and advice needed)

Hi all!
I planted 5 seeds one month ago, Zamaldelica from ace seeds (malawi x thai x zamal).
I am super-excited about this pure sativa hybrid

I have been growing for quite a long time, i have grown through 5 seasons these last 4 years, inside and out.
Through all of these 5 seasons, i got nutrient problems in 4.. the last 4.

I have read sooo much, i have Jorge Cervantes bible, i have ppm tester, ph tester. I have all those basic things needed to grow a decent crop.
So why god, why, do i ALWAYS have problems with the soil!! i am getting so tired of it that im thinking to quit growing, its just too difficult! (and there is people saying growing this plant is easy, pffffff!)

I want to keep my grow simple, i dont want to complicate it by using 10 differnt bottles of nutrients.
Because of this i decided to go with a soil rich in nutrients, Biobizz all-mix.
My plan is to use biobizz allmix, mixed with a local soil called "organic flowering-soil, peat-free".
I will transplant one week before i induce flowering, so that there is new, rich soil to provide nutrients and room for the roots.
After i will only use molasses and some bat guano to topdress. (my Molasses is especially rich in potassium, calcium and iron)

Lets get to the question:

I am in vegetative stage.
I repotted my 5 plants one week ago. Three of the plants are in 3L pots (1 gallon) and two of them are in 5L pots (about 2 gallon).
When i transplanted i also added about a teaspoon of epsom salt in each pot, and a spoonfull of mycorhizzae.
Now, one week later i am seeing a magnesium deficiency. How is it even possible??
Temperature: In the daytime it is about 23c and in the nighttime it is about 18 ( some nights a little bit lower but i try to avoid that)
I am using a heating mat under the plants to give the roots a little bit of extra cosy warmth. the heating mat is about 26c.
Humidity: around 70%
Soil: Right now it is about 60% biobizz allmix, 30% local "flowering-soil, peat free", 5% perlite, 5% expanded clay pellets, micorhizzae and dolomite lime added.
Tent: it is a darkstreet 90 (90 x 90 cm, 180 cm height)
Light: right now using a 125w CFL.
When inducing flowering i will upgrade to either a 400w HID dual spectrum OR a 250w hps + 90w led + 125w cfl

My water has a Ph of 7,8 and i saw that my runoff had the same ph.
Many, many, many forums and people are saying that when growing organic there is no need to adjust PH?
But Ph (and over-fertilization) is the most possible cause to why this is happening.
Ppm in my water is 100, we have soft water in this country.

i need some advice from experienced growers, what do you think i am doing wrong?
I really dont care about having a big harvest, but i dream about having a healthy and happy almost pure sativa. And so far, during these seasons, i have never achieved that.
Pleease; help me to make my girls happy and thriving.
Best regards

Soil in general doesnt work for indoor dope growing unless you are very experienced and dialed in. I had the same issues as you until the bloke at the hydro shop put me onto canna pro coco mix used with canna terra vega and flores. No ph adjustment and very easy to manage vega in veg and flores in flowering. I now get triple what i used to get. You dont have to use canna just make sure its professional coco made for growing dope.

simple, no magic sauces,very healthy green plants from top to bottom and a high success rate.
Also dont start seedlings in hot soil or the coco, use jiffy pellets.

Thanks for the reply!
Yeah, i've heard of coco plenty of times, and i even saw a instruction video on youtube about it.
Been thinking to try it,, but thought that if i even cant manage with rich, nutritious soil it would be even more difficult with that. Maybe im wrong.
It's cool to be growing organic, and it is what i would prefer, but if i'm only spending money on electricity, then there is no point.
I dont know if it is possible to grow in coco using organic liquid ferts, it should be?
You are not using any ph adjustments? :O then your water have to be really good. As i said before this water has a ph of 7,8, so i guess i will have to ph down wether im using soil or coco.
Anyways thank you for the advice! Next run i will try coco, as a last hope

Simple...get rid of the dolomite lime.

I use dolomite lime as a ph down in my res. There is no actual nutritional advantage to the plants from this lime as it is not in a usable state.

lime as down???? no advantage??

the lime buffers the solution and makes ph more stable and less vulnerable to fatal swings. and as it breaks down provides cal and mag.

Part of the problem could be the lack of light during veg... There are three main factors to consider when growing.

a) temp/co2

b) nutrients/water

c) light/par

You can only cater to the level of the lowest factor... In other words if your giving your plant little light they need very little nutrient or co2. Reversely when you have a lot of light you can feed more and up the levels of co2.

Sounds like you may be giving them to much, often having to much looks the same as a deficiency.

thank you all for the nice replies

Bird mcbride: Hmm, maybe i should get rid of the lime. i've read that Dolomite lime work as a PH buffer, therefore making it stay at 7, at all times. Apparently that is not the case for me, or it just didnt start working yet.
Anyways it is strange i now have a alkaline soil if im using lime. Do you think dolomite lime can make a soil alkaline?

Velvet elvis: yeah.. i added quite alot of lime when transplanting, around two tblspoon per gallon of soil. Im afraid that if i add more, we will see a nutrient lockout further down the road.
I think i put too much lime in my last season, that plant (chocolope) had an acidic soil so i tried to bring it up by adding lime in the water. It didnt help, and my plant just got worse. I had to harvest it 2 weeks earlier because of that
But its like this; last season i had an acidic soil with PH6, this season i am having a alkaline soil with almost ph8.
Growing in soil indoors seems to be veeeeery unpredictable, and i dont like that!

OG gardenz: You might be right! i didnt reflect on that before. Thanks for the input!
Well im using the cfl now in veg so that my electricity wont go through the roof, it is somewhat of a safety-concern.
i was thinking to upgrade my light when i start flowering.

I should mention that one out of my 5 plants is not showing any signs of deficiency.. it is the fastest one growing, with the thinnest most sativa-like leaves, but i suspect it is a male because of its fast growth and long space between internodes. if it isnt a male, i've found my contestant
There is 5 plants in there, but i will veg them all until i can see the sex of them and then i am thinking to choose ONE and continue to veg it. I will then put a screen on top so that i can fill the whole area with beautiful sativa buds, from a single plant.
I felt that last time, having alot of different strains and plants in my growroom i got distracted by all of them. Now i only want one, so that i can spend all my energy and effort on that.

StrictlyHerb said:

My plan is to use biobizz allmix, mixed with a local soil called "organic flowering-soil, peat-free".

Click to expand...

A plan for mud and bugs.

How come?
the local soil i bought was probably the most expensive one they had in the garden center. It's high quality soil, really really dark color, almost black.
Its not some compost i made myself
But thanks anyway

Hi there. thought Id offer some input. Firstly I used to use almost exactly the same setup. Biobizz all mix, mollases, bat guano, a bit of Tarrantulla microhizzae and super thrive with the odd bit of diluted epson salts. Always had great results.
As Hotrodharley says above, as a rule, never bring anything thats been outdoors, indoors it will always contain bugs especially soil.
I had a break from growing and recently changed to a new soil which I regret. Halfway though veg I started to get cal mag and N deficiency. I couldn't work out why and someone here suggested that it might be due to soil toxicity due to bad drainage. Low and behold he was right and it was the last thing I suspected. I fully flushed them, waited 4 days for them to completely dry out and they have recovered and all new growth nice and green. Its something worth checking for, stick your finger in one of the drainage holes and see if the soil is sludgy, if so that could be the problem. Flushing sounds like it would add to the problem but you need to do it to rinse all the toxins out. I quick dried after that by sticking rolled up toilet roll into the holes and changing them every few hours.
So my advice in a nutshell, have a quick check of the drainage.

too much lime. 1 tbsp per 5 gllons

After the problems Ive had with soil, def going back to these Hempy Buckets on my next grow, almost impossible to fuck up, no ph problems, no under water over water problems, can completely flush in an instant. I easly pulled minimum 125 grams dry off a 250w wardrobe grow, 2 plants. Highly recommended http://www.cannabis.info/gb/abc/10002673-guide-to-hempy-buckets

Dolomite lime brings to much Mg to the table. Use sparingly.
Better options are powdered Oyster shell and Egg shells ground down as fine as you can get them....

As far as flipping to Coco goes. Your going to be replacing one problem with another....I've over the years done Coco, Hydro and soil.....42 years later all I do is Organic water only soils and use a limited amount of particular liquid organic nutes for HEAVY feeders... I hate Coco, Hydro is a pain and once you get your soil and methods dialed in......It's simply fun...
I build my own soils and recharge used soils to be used over and over again with very little adjustment.
I do a 2 step veg and bloom style with 2 different soils for each. Your right on track with up potting to your final pot size and flipping them after 7-10 days (roots grow into the new media and flip) for that type of 2 step style...

I don't use or care for many "all in one" or "prebuilt" soils for veg or bloom, other then Potters Gold for plants in Solo cups before being moved to 1 gallons (Nice mild 30 day water only starter soil - will work for the 1 gallon size too but, I like to start them on my veg base at that point. It's a bit more zippy and the plant acclimates to whats coming as far as nutritional content.)

In bloom things get hotter yet as far as nutrient contents but again, not so you "see" any tip burn or overage. In strains that can and/or do express color....I bump the K up by as much as 6 points and that will go a long way to bringing out oranges, reds, purples and browns. A lower drop in night temps boost that effect...Depends on the strain..

Ok then, the point of all this is .......you should start building your own soil.

HERE is a great guideline to starting on that.

http://forum.grasscity.com/organic-growing/1116550-easy-organic-soil-mix-beginners.html

I might for a rule of thumb with this guide.....Make a mix of 1 cup Soft rock Phosphate, 1 cup Hard rock dust, 1 cup Greensand, 5 cups Garden Gypsum. Mix well and use 4 cups of that mix for your mineral amendment.....NOTE: when you recycle and recharge the soil - you shouldn't have too re amend the mineral mix for close to a year of use from that batch of soil..

READ IT ALL...get a good grow in?...Now you can begin to "play" with your nute mix and adjust to get results your looking for

I simply find that premixed soils simply don't preform as well as the soils I build. There are some interesting use's for premix's that I amend and use several soils to get what I want for a bloom soil BUT, that's a down the road thing for you yet. Get yours dialed in and then search for improvements....

I suspect that from your pH readings the soil is a bit off and the natural "swing" of pH when you water has the plant in defs of Ca, Mg and P....A very common problem with organic soils that are not amended with the right amounts of Buffer (lime, Oshell) and inoculated with myco's.....I even add a bagged dry myco's mix (heavy on the fungus) in my soils - I find great success with that trick, even though I use fresh EWC and good healthy farm composted cow manure for microbes...

You'll get there, be patient!
BTW, I see this a lot here with folks using BioBizz - wonder why???
Hope this helped some

Doc

Willc: That's a friggin great idea!! Brilliant my soil is a little bit clodgy. But i just transplanted you know, so the small plants couldnt drink up all the water for quite a long time, i didnt water for a week - ten days, until yesterday.
Anyway great advice, thank you! Next time i mix soil, im adding lots more of perlite


Velvet elvis: yeah.. shit. i suspected this when i mixed the soil, but some forums said it was ok with 2 tbs per gallon.
Read on wikipedia that below 60ppm is considered soft water, 60 - 100 ppm is moderatly hard, and 120 and above is hard etc.
The water here is 100 ppm. When i mixed soil i took for granted that the water here was soft, and then read that i should mix more dolomite lime to compensate for the soft water... i was wrong and now i think there is a calcium toxicity.


Willc: ok im gonna check out hempy buckets!
But im still quite fascinated by coco, and how many people there is out there using that.. must be for a good reason! im def gonna try that


Dr. who: Thanks for the detailed answer! much appreciated.
Egg shells and oyster shells does sound like a great idea! i never used 'em before. What is the Ph level off egg shells and oyster shells? does it keep the ph neutral? Great advice!
Ooooh, making my own soil, that would be.. so cool! but man, im like moving home every year, aint staying so long in each place.
It's good for security reasons i guess, but its not ideal, and its a pain in the ass to move so often.
Its not because i want to, but because the property situation here is problematic.
But i did put some leaves, sticks and dead plants in a black plastic bag last summer, its a little experiment to see if it will become nutritious soil in a year or so

"I suspect that from your pH readings the soil is a bit off and the natural "swing" of pH when you water has the plant in defs of Ca, Mg and P....A very common problem with organic soils that are not amended with the right amounts of Buffer (lime, Oshell) and inoculated with myco's"

Well, as i stated in my answer to Velvet elvis above here, i think im having a calcium toxicity due to hard water and too much lime, what do you think?
Anyways.. i'm only one month into it, i could just sow the remaining 6 seeds i have and start over, but keeping my current ones alive to see if they recover. If not, then i got a plan B.

And if i do start some new ones; i would love to have you guys here in 'Rollitup to recommend yout own soil recipee (most helpfully, with the soils and nutrients i have)

I've got:

Biobizz Allmix - 30L
- Recommended for indoor and outdoor potted plants, all kinds of flowers, vegetables, herbs, trees and lawns.

Major constituents:
Peat moss
sphagnum peat
worm castings
perlite
mycorrhiza
pre-mix
amount of added fertilizer: 50L/m3

ec: 2,4
ph: 6,6

Bio potting soil, peat-free
-..."in harmony with nature and perfect for organic gardening, ready-to-use Bio potting soil, peat-free is ideal for plants. [...]
The unique combination of well balanced and carefully blended, wholly natural raw material and fertilisers provide ideal conditions for organic gardening. [...] Coco peat and leca clay naturally imrpove the soils porosity and air capacity, as well as its water conductivity and drainage properties. [...]"

major constituents:

added per M3:
Lime - 3-6 Kg
NPK 8 - 4 - 6 - 3 Kg

Mg/L
Nitrogen - 75
Phosporus - 60
potassium - 680
Calcium - 45
Magnesium - 230

(S) - 140
(B) - 0,60
(Cu) - 0,5
(Fe) - 90,3
(Mn) - 14,2
(Mo) - <0,05
(zn) - 4,7

Then i have:

Dolomite lime

Worm castings - 2L

Cow manure - 6L

Kelp (0-0-1,5)

vermiculite

Perlite

powdered batguano (indonesian, high P)

expanded clay pellets

Molasses

Give me your advice, how would you mix these ingredients? and in what doses.
Best regards

StrictlyHerb said:

Willc: That's a friggin great idea!! Brilliant my soil is a little bit clodgy. But i just transplanted you know, so the small plants couldnt drink up all the water for quite a long time, i didnt water for a week - ten days, until yesterday.
Anyway great advice, thank you! Next time i mix soil, im adding lots more of perlite


Velvet elvis: yeah.. shit. i suspected this when i mixed the soil, but some forums said it was ok with 2 tbs per gallon.
Read on wikipedia that below 60ppm is considered soft water, 60 - 100 ppm is moderatly hard, and 120 and above is hard etc.
The water here is 100 ppm. When i mixed soil i took for granted that the water here was soft, and then read that i should mix more dolomite lime to compensate for the soft water... i was wrong and now i think there is a calcium toxicity.


Willc: ok im gonna check out hempy buckets!
But im still quite fascinated by coco, and how many people there is out there using that.. must be for a good reason! im def gonna try that


Dr. who: Thanks for the detailed answer! much appreciated.
Egg shells and oyster shells does sound like a great idea! i never used 'em before. What is the Ph level off egg shells and oyster shells? does it keep the ph neutral? Great advice!
Ooooh, making my own soil, that would be.. so cool! but man, im like moving home every year, aint staying so long in each place.
It's good for security reasons i guess, but its not ideal, and its a pain in the ass to move so often.
Its not because i want to, but because the property situation here is problematic.
But i did put some leaves, sticks and dead plants in a black plastic bag last summer, its a little experiment to see if it will become nutritious soil in a year or so

"I suspect that from your pH readings the soil is a bit off and the natural "swing" of pH when you water has the plant in defs of Ca, Mg and P....A very common problem with organic soils that are not amended with the right amounts of Buffer (lime, Oshell) and inoculated with myco's"

Well, as i stated in my answer to Velvet elvis above here, i think im having a calcium toxicity due to hard water and too much lime, what do you think?
Anyways.. i'm only one month into it, i could just sow the remaining 6 seeds i have and start over, but keeping my current ones alive to see if they recover. If not, then i got a plan B.

And if i do start some new ones; i would love to have you guys here in 'Rollitup to recommend yout own soil recipee (most helpfully, with the soils and nutrients i have)

I've got:

Biobizz Allmix - 30L
- Recommended for indoor and outdoor potted plants, all kinds of flowers, vegetables, herbs, trees and lawns.

Major constituents:
Peat moss
sphagnum peat
worm castings
perlite
mycorrhiza
pre-mix
amount of added fertilizer: 50L/m3

ec: 2,4
ph: 6,6

Bio potting soil, peat-free
-..."in harmony with nature and perfect for organic gardening, ready-to-use Bio potting soil, peat-free is ideal for plants. [...]
The unique combination of well balanced and carefully blended, wholly natural raw material and fertilisers provide ideal conditions for organic gardening. [...] Coco peat and leca clay naturally imrpove the soils porosity and air capacity, as well as its water conductivity and drainage properties. [...]"

major constituents:

added per M3:
Lime - 3-6 Kg
NPK 8 - 4 - 6 - 3 Kg

Mg/L
Nitrogen - 75
Phosporus - 60
potassium - 680
Calcium - 45
Magnesium - 230

(S) - 140
(B) - 0,60
(Cu) - 0,5
(Fe) - 90,3
(Mn) - 14,2
(Mo) - <0,05
(zn) - 4,7

Then i have:

Dolomite lime

Worm castings - 2L

Cow manure - 6L

Kelp (0-0-1,5)

vermiculite

Perlite

powdered batguano (indonesian, high P)

expanded clay pellets

Molasses

Give me your advice, how would you mix these ingredients? and in what doses.
Best regards

Click to expand...

If you do fancy doing a Hempy, (I would highly recommend it just for fun its so simple) I followed this guys advice and got the same results as him. The nutes he used, Monkey Juice were meant for coco but worked fine. They still exist but have a new name. If you read through the whole thread theres many people sharing their advice on different feeding techniques https://www.rollitup.org/t/bonemans-ak47-ppp-hempy-side-by-side.109237/

ec too high

hello again guys!
I will mos def try a hempy, but right now i got to stick to the gear i have, dont wanna invest in new nutes etc etc.
My plants have recovered a bit,, the chlorosis on the leaves increased slightly, but i flushed ALL plants with lots of water.

I am PH'ing down with vinegar, and will have to do so through all this grow, do you think it will cause any problems?

Like every second night im spraying the plants with epsom salts diluted in water, just a tiny tiny bit of epsom salts but atleast so that they get some Mg. They are surviving, and the new growth looks green and healthy.
But im just insecure how and when this problem will be stabilized.
Fortunately these pots are not the final, and i will transplant one more time and then will be able to mix a new better soil.

Also planted 6 new seeds just in case these girls dies, aint doing the same mistake with the new ones.

StrictlyHerb said:

hello again guys!
I will mos def try a hempy, but right now i got to stick to the gear i have, dont wanna invest in new nutes etc etc.
My plants have recovered a bit,, the chlorosis on the leaves increased slightly, but i flushed ALL plants with lots of water.

I am PH'ing down with vinegar, and will have to do so through all this grow, do you think it will cause any problems?

Like every second night im spraying the plants with epsom salts diluted in water, just a tiny tiny bit of epsom salts but atleast so that they get some Mg. They are surviving, and the new growth looks green and healthy.
But im just insecure how and when this problem will be stabilized.
Fortunately these pots are not the final, and i will transplant one more time and then will be able to mix a new better soil.

Also planted 6 new seeds just in case these girls dies, aint doing the same mistake with the new ones.

Click to expand...

pH control with vinegar is extremely poor. From my own experiences.Here is a link also.

http://generalhydroponics.com/site/index.php/resources/faqs/ph_dynamics_and_adjustment/

"What if I can not get any pH Down, and my system is running high?

Answer: Short-term solutions include citric acid (which degrades in solution) or sulfuric acid made for car batteries. Make sure this does not include any lead, and be very careful with this acid. Vinegar will also work, but generally, the effects are short term."

if the grower doesn't get help, it won't be for a lack of typing. why don't you put up some pics so we can see for ourselves. the only real question being asked is something about magnesium def despite the extra magnesium being given. it's pretty unlikely that this is your problem. pics please.