Obama's Certificate of Live Birth...

hanimmal said:

This was all spun off of the patriot act, that was placed in incase of a bio attack. So if a group of people get some new strain of say black plague they can't say no to getting a vaccine since it can spread to others.

People are drawing the 'conclusion' that the H1N1 vaccine is going to be forced on others from this. They did not have something that is not as powerful as the regular flu in mind when writting that I am willing to bet.

Click to expand...

http://www.cdc.gov/ncidod/dq/nprm/docs/42CFR70_71.pdf


it never even mentions terrorism. as far as the virus i think its already met the incredibly weak criteria:

The Secretary’s authority to
quarantine persons is limited to those
communicable diseases published in an
Executive Order of the President. This
list currently includes cholera,
diphtheria, infectious tuberculosis,
plague, smallpox, yellow fever, and
viral hemorrhagic fevers, such as
Marburg, Ebola and Congo-Crimean,
Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome,
and influenza caused by novel or
reemergent influenza viruses that are
causing or have the potential to cause a
pandemic"

Click to expand...

hanimmal said:

You ignore evidence all the time when it doesn't work with your theories. I constantly feel like you ignore me!

Click to expand...

wow....um...i never intended to. if you could point me to an instance when i did?

Yeah read that full part you quoted. It is about quarantine. If the flu was manipulated (through science, or nature) that would cause a serious pandemic it makes sense to me to quarantine them until the danger has passed.

But although the WHO said that this was a pandemic they meant the spread, not the severity of it.

This means that they are going to use everything that came from the patriot act for this for the H1N1 that has not even came close to the levels that the regular flu gets to. In the US only 394 people have died of it, while 63,729 die per year of the regular flu.

It was just a sexy story that got everyone worried and hence glued to the news for a couple weeks.

But that being said this COULD mutate and be very serious. Chances are that it won't but eventually there could be a virus that does mutate and then we are boned and quarantines will seem very logical to all those that are not sick.

i don't know. i see nothing in the language of the quarantine plan or exec order that assures me that you're correct.

It is all a point of view issue.

Is it possible for someone in the future to be completely out of touch and manipulate the letter of the law to quarantine people for a made up reason under this? Most Likely.

But at the same time, if they didn't allow for certain liberties on behalf of the people in the field to get people quarantined in a timely matter and be forced to wait until they get word from some politician far removed from the actual situation that may not even understand the nature of the disease of what the people trying to fix it are faced with, it could potentially already be too late.

After years of thinking Bush was a evil being, I have to relent to the fact I was as brainwashed as the people that think Obama is really Hitler.

After I took a step back and had to relearn everything I have to relent. He got this right I believe. You have to look at this from the angle of worst things that could possibly happen. Take a subway car that just got attacked with the plague. Now all these people could potentially wipe out a majority of a city if they were allowed to go home because they have their rights.

And if they are forced to wait for someone to vote and give them the ok to isolate it could also be too late. So they have to give the people on the ground some leeway to make the best decision in the most timely fashion.

Better to be overprotected in the case of an emergancy and get an apology afterwards, than to kill thousands because you were afraid to act on the information that you already had and knew was the right thing to do.

Just we need to make sure that we keep an eye on the government that if they start to use this power in bad ways that we can act swiftly.

It is good that people like Alex Jones keep people aware of FEMA, but it would just be nice if it wasn't crazy and actually tried to just teach people what the government is capable of doing in cases of emergencies. Instead of making it seem like they are going to do this to take over the country, that they are already in charge of.

The balance is a funny thing. We need to be completely prepared so that we can act in case of an emergency, but people look at it as a way to submit the citizens to their will, which makes it harder and adds to the layers of political laws to ensure that this doesn't happen, which makes it harder to be as prepared because the people that need to make the best call have it taken out of their hands, which leads to not being able to take care of a disaster, which makes people mistrust the government, on and on.

Who wins? If too much freedom of the government it will eventually be used to screw the people, too few freedom and the people can get screwed for the governments hands being tied.

hanimmal said:

Purplekitty,



The mandatory vaccines thing is a joke. Unless you contract the bubonic plague from a terrorist attack I think that your safe to not be forced anything.


There is already laws that are in place, they are just trying to change the regulations to ensure that americans will be screwed as little as possible. There is not enough resources to try to force everyone into some kind of schedual to recieve care, so that won't happen.



You already have a social security card. Do you carry it all the time? If you have health insurance you have a card too.



This is a new conspiracy theory to me, I think that you are mixing up a few different bills. The "mandatory info" theory was a lie about the cash for clunkers information of the person going to the governemnt, when it was actually the dealerships that was used to track the program.



If you have health insurance you will see no changes period. If you are one of the 1/6th of america that does not have it you will have the choice to get some through work or a company, get a natinal plan, or if you refuse all that then you will be charged the 2.5% tax. Because you are going to eventually be a drain on society, and I will have to pay for the stupidity of people thinking that they are industructable.



Get over Canada. We are not doing their system. Look into Frances care, that is what this is going to be similar to. They have the #1 care in the world, England is #18, canada is #30, we are #37. We are not looking to improve a few places.



The people that don't have health insurance get into a car accident and are unconcious, we cannot just say oh well and walk away from them, we have to take care of them. And that money gets spread around and we all have to pay for it anyway.



Keenly is not a great source of information for a unbiased opinion. Usually it is based off of a websites viewpoints that is anti-Obama. If you have insurance already you will see no change period. You are grandfathered in. Now if the insurance comapnay changes their plans then they already could have and usually do.





No it won't you only pay if you have no insurance. Hence if you didn't you are just being forced to pay for your insurance if you can afford it. If you can't then there are plans to help you to.



You go on to cut and paste it. But that is a biased website that is bastardizing the facts to their viewers to rile them up so they keep comiong back. Look at those pages yourself and don't take everything third hand.



Go read the Obama looking good threads 86ish through w/e. We went over the healthcare a lot there, although most the pov's were already slanted and noone really wants to see the facts. Because false truths are way off are so much sexier.

Click to expand...

No, the mandatory vaccine isn't a joke. Read the Public Readiness Emergency and Preparedness Act. It governs that it can be done.

And if you haven't heard, they are stock piling and making vaccinations.

Straight from the WHO site:

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_vaccine_20090806/en/index.html

**WHO moved Pandemic up to Phase 6 July 11, 2009**

http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/menuitem.1a019a978f421296e81ec89e43181aa0/?vgnextoid=dfd78423f59c1210VgnVCM10000089f0870aRCRD



Yes, I have a social security card. Obviously, anyone born in
America has one. But I don't regulary carry it on me. Ever.
Only if I need it for an ID or something. Which I don't need.
Yes, I have a health care card. But why is that they want to

give everyone another?


Why does everyone think that is ok? If I refuse a gov't option why should
I be taxed to pay for others? We are taxed enough as a society.

And people who get in car accidents with no insurance are regularly helped anyway. I've worked in the ER and seen people in car accidents come in and get treated just like any other patient even if they don't have insurance.

If you can disprove all of the things Keenly has found with a legitimate
source I would be happy to believe that he gets information from
biased sites.

Why should any American be forced to pay for insurance just because
they can afford it?

Just because a person CAN afford something, doesn't mean that they
should be forced to get it. That's just plain bullshit.

So if someone had savings in the bank, and the gov't knew it,
they could say "you have total of $36,952 in your checkings account. You will now be getting monthly deductions to pay for health care you don't
even want to buy"



Its in the bill. That they will have real time access to your bank account.

purplekitty7772008 said:

No, the mandatory vaccine isn't a joke. Read the Public Readiness Emergency and Preparedness Act. It governs that it can be done.

And if you haven't heard, they are stock piling and making vaccinations.

Straight from the WHO site:

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swineflu/notes/h1n1_vaccine_20090806/en/index.html

**WHO moved Pandemic up to Phase 6 July 11, 2009**

http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/en/menuitem.1a019a978f421296e81ec89e43181aa0/?vgnextoid=dfd78423f59c1210VgnVCM10000089f0870aRCRD



Yes, I have a social security card. Obviously, anyone born in
America has one. But I don't regulary carry it on me. Ever.
Only if I need it for an ID or something. Which I don't need.
Yes, I have a health care card. But why is that they want to

give everyone another?


Why does everyone think that is ok? If I refuse a gov't option why should
I be taxed to pay for others? We are taxed enough as a society.

And people who get in car accidents with no insurance are regularly helped anyway. I've worked in the ER and seen people in car accidents come in and get treated just like any other patient even if they don't have insurance.

If you can disprove all of the things Keenly has found with a legitimate
source I would be happy to believe that he gets information from
biased sites.

Why should any American be forced to pay for insurance just because
they can afford it?

Just because a person CAN afford something, doesn't mean that they
should be forced to get it. That's just plain bullshit.

So if someone had savings in the bank, and the gov't knew it,
they could say "you have total of $36,952 in your checkings account. You will now be getting monthly deductions to pay for health care you don't
even want to buy"



Its in the bill. That they will have real time access to your bank account.

Click to expand...

Because something can be done doesn't mean it will be done. Listen to Keenly - we really don't care. You are being duped by right wing nut jobs. Do you understand how easy it is to conjure up evidence for claims? When evidence can be invented for any claim, then individuals are responsible for discerning and interpreting accurately. If you listen to ONE and only ONE biased source on which to base your claims, it's your prerogative. But I will say this - if all your political knowledge comes from a marijuana growing site (and one dominated by tin hats), then you truly are weak. Take a class, read a book, anything other than posted links on this site. Please think for yourself.

jrh72582 said:

Great post. You provide ample evidence to counter all of Kitty's and Cracker's claims. However, they will ignore you because you're right and they have no way of retorting. I tried telling Kitty she will see NO change, but of course, they never believe the facts.

Anyway, well done! I always enjoy your posts. You are the mitigated voice of reason. +rep.

Click to expand...

If I remember correctly, I've never ignored anyone who has countered
me.

Jrh, seriously dude. Wth is your problem. You make different things up
EVERY DAY.

And when I tell you to show me some evidence because I catch
you lying, you ignore me and start on another subject.

Just like the threads I supposedly started about my "hot body" and
a thread I started about hating my "poor life".

And you just completely abandoned the other thread of Keenly's
where I countered every argument you threw at me.

So don't try and say I'm the one who ignores anyone.

I'm keeping count. This is the fourth time you've made up some
bullshit about me.

I'm just waiting on lie number five.

purplekitty7772008 said:

If I remember correctly, I've never ignored anyone who has countered
me.

Jrh, seriously dude. Wth is your problem. You make different things up
EVERY DAY.

And when I tell you to show me some evidence because I catch
you lying, you ignore me and start on another subject.

Just like the threads I supposedly started about my "hot body" and
a thread I started about hating my "poor life".

And you just completely abandoned the other thread of Keenly's
where I countered every argument you threw at me.

So don't try and say I'm the one who ignores anyone.

I'm keeping count. This is the fourth time you've made up some
bullshit about me.

I'm just waiting on lie number five.

Click to expand...

Oh the melodrama!!!

jrh72582 said:

Because something can be done doesn't mean it will be done. Listen to Keenly - we really don't care. You are being duped by right wing nut jobs. Do you understand how easy it is to conjure up evidence for claims? When evidence can be invented for any claim, then individuals are responsible for discerning and interpreting accurately. If you listen to ONE and only ONE biased source on which to base your claims, it's your prerogative. But I will say this - if all your political knowledge comes from a marijuana growing site (and one dominated by tin hats), then you truly are weak. Take a class, read a book, anything other than posted links on this site. Please think for yourself.

Click to expand...

Ok jrh. Answer this question I have for you then.

Why would they put these laws into place unless they intend
on using them?

Last time I checked, I listed two well-known non-biased sites.
The Red Cross site, and the WHO organization site.

If all of my knowledge came from RIU I wouldn't post links from
other sites where I obtained my information.

Obviously, I'm capable of thinking for myself.
Would you like to tell me I have posted nothing but

links from RIU to support my claims?

If so, that would be counted as lie number 5 from you.

jrh72582 said:

Oh the melodrama!!!

Click to expand...

Exactly. You can't say I do ignore anyone on here
who counters me.....

So you can sit there and refute with "Oh the melodrama!!!"
because you can't truly say that any of the things you have

tried to lie on me about are true.

is the word "possibility" in your vocab jrh


can you at least admit everything i have said is possible

No, the mandatory vaccine isn't a joke. Read the Public Readiness Emergency and Preparedness Act. It governs that it can be done.

And if you haven't heard, they are stock piling and making vaccinations.

Straight from the WHO site:

http://www.who.int/csr/disease/swine.../en/index.html

**WHO moved Pandemic up to Phase 6 July 11, 2009**

http://www.redcross.org/portal/site/...0089f0870aRCRD

Click to expand...

We covered that in another thread, but just because they are getting vaccines ready incase of an emergency it does not mean that they are going to force it on anyone that doesn't want it. People are too paranoid about this and the people your getting your news from are making connections that have nothing to do with eachother.

The phase 6 is to keep everyone aware, they even said that it was not a serious severity. I put the numbers on the other thread, but only 300ish people died of H1N1, while over 60k a year in the us die of regular flu. H1N1 if it mutates into something really severe would be tragic, but until that happens there is nothing to fear.

Yes, I have a social security card. Obviously, anyone born in
America has one. But I don't regulary carry it on me. Ever.
Only if I need it for an ID or something. Which I don't need.
Yes, I have a health care card. But why is that they want to
give everyone another?

Click to expand...

I read most the bill and did not see that anywhere. And lets for argument sake say that it is in there (which unless you can give me a section and line number I won't believe), if you have insurance you already have an insurance card, if you don't then you would either get it (meaning that you need a card for the hospital) or your paying 2.5% taxes and they would not be able to give you a insurance card since you have no insurance.

Why does everyone think that is ok? If I refuse a gov't option why should
I be taxed to pay for others? We are taxed enough as a society.

Click to expand...

Again your missing it. If you have other insurance and don't want the government program you will not be taxed. Nothing will change for you. The taxes will only come from the people that refuse to get sometype of insurance government or private.

And people who get in car accidents with no insurance are regularly helped anyway. I've worked in the ER and seen people in car accidents come in and get treated just like any other patient even if they don't have insurance.

Click to expand...

Exactly. And what happens to all the costs that are incurred? It gets spread out to all the other patients that pay for their care in the form of higher prices that are either paid by the insurance companies or the people paying in cash. It is not just forgiven. We all are already paying higher prices due to everyone not having insurance. This way people will either be forced to get some (so that their plan is paying for the care they receive, or they pay the 2.5% taxes for not being responsible by having no insurance).

If you can disprove all of the things Keenly has found with a legitimate
source I would be happy to believe that he gets information from
biased sites.

Click to expand...

I am not going to say that I have or can disprove everything that he has said, but with the insurance portion, on the Obama's looking good thread page 86 on I had posted the actual bill and disputted line by line most the things that the republican sites had falsified. I always try to post the actual information when the conspiracy theories get posted.

But I try and not just jump on it without looking at both sides then looking at the actual information. Most of the new political websites are using peoples ignorance of how to research stuff and just cut and pasting or 'pharaphrasing' quotes that are completely manipulating the truth.

And that is where all this nonsence of this bill has came from. It sucks because it makes it almost impossible to see if there is anything to actually worry about because of all the bs that they just made up to scare people away from it.

Almost all the negative attacks against Obama you see now are a manipulation of the republican party to get people so scared that everything is so horrible that they can get re-elected next year.

Scared and paniced people vote in huge numbers compared to conplacent people. So in absence of actual situations that make people scared (war, 9/11) it is easier to just make crap up non-stop until everyone is in a state of panic.

Why should any American be forced to pay for insurance just because
they can afford it?

Just because a person CAN afford something, doesn't mean that they
should be forced to get it. That's just plain bullshit.

Click to expand...

They shouldn't and are not. But if they are chosing not to get insurance even though they can afford it, then they are going to pay taxes. It is a crappy choice but it is a choice.

Eventually time catches up to people and they find themselves in need (get sick w/e) and when that happens they will use the system that we all pay into. Why should they not have to pay and instead make us all pay for their stupidity or pride? We cannot just let them sit on the sidewalk and die.

So if someone had savings in the bank, and the gov't knew it,
they could say "you have total of $36,952 in your checkings account. You will now be getting monthly deductions to pay for health care you don't
even want to buy"



Its in the bill. That they will have real time access to your bank account.

Click to expand...

This was one of the lies that I disproved. The only way that they have your banking info is if you set it up for a direct withdrawl. Just like setting up a online bill. It is not something that they force onto you, you chose to sign up for it. Just like when I get my tax returns and I actually paid too much, I can have them directly input that money into my account. They don't sit there and monitor your funds, it was just another misrepresentation of the truth to scare people.


I applaud you for getting involved and trying to educate yourself on the issues. We need to get more people to open their eyes to what is happening. But I implore you that if you read it on the internet question everything. They misquote on purpose to get their story.

If something has you worried look at the actual documents because chances are that a lot of the actual information was left out that may change everything.

purplekitty7772008 said:

Exactly. You can't say I do ignore anyone on here
who counters me.....

So you can sit there and refute with "Oh the melodrama!!!"
because you can't truly say that any of the things you have

tried to lie on me about are true.

Click to expand...

Why refute your silly claims when Hanimmal is laying it out for you. I agree with almost everything he's posted on this topic and tried to get you to read it. You have not responded to him once. If you'd like, I can rephrase exactly what he said, but why? He's right - he gets the credit (he is the one who was nice enough to write a coherent thesis on the matter). So consider his ideas and respond. You're simply wrong.

And give up on the whole lying thing. I can explain exactly what I meant by your sickening vanity on this site, but I don't want to appear mean and predatory. Just let it go. I was simply sick of all your 'look at me, pay attention to me' posts. That's all I meant.

You have not responded to him once.

Click to expand...

Nah she responded to me once.

But ty for the credit.

hanimmal said:

We covered that in another thread, but just because they are getting vaccines ready incase of an emergency it does not mean that they are going to force it on anyone that doesn't want it. People are too paranoid about this and the people your getting your news from are making connections that have nothing to do with eachother.

The phase 6 is to keep everyone aware, they even said that it was not a serious severity. I put the numbers on the other thread, but only 300ish people died of H1N1, while over 60k a year in the us die of regular flu. H1N1 if it mutates into something really severe would be tragic, but until that happens there is nothing to fear.



I read most the bill and did not see that anywhere. And lets for argument sake say that it is in there (which unless you can give me a section and line number I won't believe), if you have insurance you already have an insurance card, if you don't then you would either get it (meaning that you need a card for the hospital) or your paying 2.5% taxes and they would not be able to give you a insurance card since you have no insurance.




Again your missing it. If you have other insurance and don't want the government program you will not be taxed. Nothing will change for you. The taxes will only come from the people that refuse to get sometype of insurance government or private.



Exactly. And what happens to all the costs that are incurred? It gets spread out to all the other patients that pay for their care in the form of higher prices that are either paid by the insurance companies or the people paying in cash. It is not just forgiven. We all are already paying higher prices due to everyone not having insurance. This way people will either be forced to get some (so that their plan is paying for the care they receive, or they pay the 2.5% taxes for not being responsible by having no insurance).



I am not going to say that I have or can disprove everything that he has said, but with the insurance portion, on the Obama's looking good thread page 86 on I had posted the actual bill and disputted line by line most the things that the republican sites had falsified. I always try to post the actual information when the conspiracy theories get posted.

But I try and not just jump on it without looking at both sides then looking at the actual information. Most of the new political websites are using peoples ignorance of how to research stuff and just cut and pasting or 'pharaphrasing' quotes that are completely manipulating the truth.

And that is where all this nonsence of this bill has came from. It sucks because it makes it almost impossible to see if there is anything to actually worry about because of all the bs that they just made up to scare people away from it.

Almost all the negative attacks against Obama you see now are a manipulation of the republican party to get people so scared that everything is so horrible that they can get re-elected next year.

Scared and paniced people vote in huge numbers compared to conplacent people. So in absence of actual situations that make people scared (war, 9/11) it is easier to just make crap up non-stop until everyone is in a state of panic.



They shouldn't and are not. But if they are chosing not to get insurance even though they can afford it, then they are going to pay taxes. It is a crappy choice but it is a choice.

Eventually time catches up to people and they find themselves in need (get sick w/e) and when that happens they will use the system that we all pay into. Why should they not have to pay and instead make us all pay for their stupidity or pride? We cannot just let them sit on the sidewalk and die.



This was one of the lies that I disproved. The only way that they have your banking info is if you set it up for a direct withdrawl. Just like setting up a online bill. It is not something that they force onto you, you chose to sign up for it. Just like when I get my tax returns and I actually paid too much, I can have them directly input that money into my account. They don't sit there and monitor your funds, it was just another misrepresentation of the truth to scare people.


I applaud you for getting involved and trying to educate yourself on the issues. We need to get more people to open their eyes to what is happening. But I implore you that if you read it on the internet question everything. They misquote on purpose to get their story.

If something has you worried look at the actual documents because chances are that a lot of the actual information was left out that may change everything.

Click to expand...

This is exactly what I'm confused about. Why would the WHO push
this to phase 6 with so little deaths? It doesn't sound right to me.
Thousands die from the flu worldwide, so I don't understand why
they bumped it up to Phase 6. Its fishy.

If you really read all 100 some odd pages then I give you props.

The green part I highlighted of your post I didn't understand. Could you revise please?

But hannimal, tell why you think its ok to force someone to get insurance?

So its either, buy private insurance, the gov't option, or get taxed?
I didn't know it was ok for the gov't to give its citizens an
ultimatum or be taxed for not buying health care.

I haven't seen any negative attacks on Obama....because I don't
watch the news. Its all biased. I watch the weather and traffic
so I wouldn't really know if Obama is being attacked or not.

That is exactly WHY I don't watch the news, is because they blow
everything out of proportion to strike fear into Americans, and I don't
buy any of their crap.

No, we can't just people sit on the sidewalk and die. Thats what the
ER is for. Now for other illnesses, that aren't emergenices, there is
nothing I can say but that those people can go to college, get a degree,
and a good career and pay for their own health insurance. No, it won't be easy, but it is definitely possible.

Thank you for being civil in this debate hannimal and not
resorting to personal attacks.

Hannimal, I skipped some of your post on accident and will reply to them a bit later. Sorry about that.

jrh72582 said:

Why refute your silly claims when Hanimmal is laying it out for you. I agree with almost everything he's posted on this topic and tried to get you to read it. You have not responded to him once. If you'd like, I can rephrase exactly what he said, but why? He's right - he gets the credit (he is the one who was nice enough to write a coherent thesis on the matter). So consider his ideas and respond. You're simply wrong.

And give up on the whole lying thing. I can explain exactly what I meant by your sickening vanity on this site, but I don't want to appear mean and predatory. Just let it go. I was simply sick of all your 'look at me, pay attention to me' posts. That's all I meant.

Click to expand...

And there goes lie number 5.

Yes, I did respond to him.

And "you're simply wrong" isn't a great response when you're debating
someone.

I'm not going to stop calling you out on your lies, because I don't like
when people make up lies about me.

If you consider ranting as "look at me, pay attention to me" then
I guess you have never not had anyone around to talk to like I have.

So I come on here to rant sometimes, and get advice. But it certainly
doesn't mean I'm looking for attention. But rather someone to talk to.

purplekitty7772008 said:

And there goes lie number 5.

Yes, I did respond to him.

And "you're simply wrong" isn't a great response when you're debating
someone.

I'm not going to stop calling you out on your lies, because I don't like
when people make up lies about me.

If you consider ranting as "look at me, pay attention to me" then
I guess you have never not had anyone around to talk to like I have.

So I come on here to rant sometimes, and get advice. But it certainly
doesn't mean I'm looking for attention. But rather someone to talk to.

Click to expand...

Actually, 'you're wrong' is a great retort when the person you're debating is wrong. Right?

jrh72582 said:

Actually, 'you're wrong' is a great retort when the person you're debating is wrong. Right?

Click to expand...

No, not really.

It simply means you have nothing to refute with, so you
go with a simple "You're wrong" argument.

purplekitty7772008 said:

No, not really.

It simply means you have nothing to refute with, so you
go with a simple "You're wrong" argument.

Click to expand...

Wow. You are so blinded by rage in every response to me that you can't even interpret tone or mood. Can you say 'Medea'? Give it a rest. Breathe. Relax. Now re-read what I wrote. Seem any different?