Noob Questions about whorled phyllotaxy & super cropping

just started growing again after 10 year hiatus


grew from seed and made clones (jack the ripper, TGA seeds)

about 80% of the clones had whorled phyllotaxy (triple leaves) and i'm wondering:

roots established (notice the normal spiral phyllotaxy (2 leaves) under the whorled

week 2 (pruned)

> is this common among clones? (or common among clones close to seed genetics)

> is this a good thing? (all showing female preflowers, no hermies) (i kept the "normal" clones to check final yields, still a ways off from seeing myself)

also, about super cropping

>is it worth it to super crop? (sure the internode has increased transportation due to the super cropping, but will hit a bottleneck on each node, thus limiting transport to the default)


any help will be appreciated
thx

@Sativied is the guy you want to talk about when it comes to phyllotaxy. He runs a couple strains with it. All frosty. Very knowledgeable.

D33W3K0M5 said:

> is this common among clones? (or common among clones close to seed genetics)

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Common no, more common amongst clones yes. When a plant matures it start alternating, which often already results in spiral phyllotaxy (like a round staircase around the stem) in the bud site. Once flowering, or when cloning and vegging, the newest nodes spiraled become closer together again, which can result in whorled phyllotaxy without it being a wp mutant like mine.
It doesn't get any closer to "seed genetics" than clones by the way.

D33W3K0M5 said:

> is this a good thing? (all showing female preflowers, no hermies) (i kept the "normal" clones to check final yields, still a ways off from seeing myself)

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Tri whorled phyllotaxy is technically a better phyllotaxy especially during veg. You get more plant, less overlap, in the same time. By itself, given a wp plant and a regular plant with the same amount of branches there is not a significant difference in yield.

The main cola(s) of a regular are often alternating and/or spiral already, just as a tri whorled phyllotaxy alternates too. So not a whole lot of difference 'in' the main bud site. This is just below the main cola:
Notice the 3rd bud:


I've had males, females and hermie that whorled, there's no direct link.

D33W3K0M5 said:

>is it worth it to super crop? (sure the internode has increased transportation due to the super cropping, but will hit a bottleneck on each node, thus limiting transport to the default)

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I would top it down to 2x or 3x a tri node, so you get 6 or 9 colas. 6 works best because the second 3 don't overlap with the first 3. That's the main benefit which by topping is exploited to the max.

Depending on whether the branches become whorled too you may have to prune some branches. Supercrop can work too, if you for example want to spread out one plant over a large surface like in a scrog. Obviously whorled phyllotaxy gives you more branches to work with. The topping option is more suitable if you have a lot, let it grow till 5th or 6th node then "top" the top (and use that part that is already whorled as clone), then cut everything except 6 non-overlapping branches. So from the top:

Oh theres actually a term for this, I just cut 1 down that was a straight up male from a feminised cookie kush pack with these traits

See, OP? What the fuck did I tell you? Solid advice right?

Pinworm said:

See, OP? What the fuck did I tell you? Solid advice right?

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I love the back and forth with sativied, straight up knowledgeable and all around great guy IMHO

a senile fungus said:

I love the back and forth with sativied, straight up knowledgeable and all around great guy IMHO

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He taught me how to hydro. I respect the shit out of him.

Pinworm said:

He taught me how to hydro. I respect the shit out of him.

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He and i talked forever about gavitas, and I but the bullet and love em.

And he's the main person who I've planned my sealed room with.

@Sativied you rock buddy, hope all is well for you in your home country. And new, shitty grow laws to contend with?

I'm trying hard to either not post, or just troll'n trash RIU, and then you guys drop comments like that on me...

a senile fungus said:

And new, shitty grow laws to contend with?

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Judges finally ruled a few cases of raided growshops (including supposedly Europe's largest) and the cops have to give everything they confiscated back... from lights to seeds. Our politicians and cops are retarded but our judges so far have often shown to be worthy of their title. Not over yet though, appeals probably... And the new MoJ, Mr. Ad - "I know people who died from weed" - van der Steur, is just as clueless as his predecessor.

Oh and still waiting on that PM fungus... been refreshing my inbox for over a week now...

thanks for info
been asking locals for a while and came up with nothing
thx again

Are we talking alternating leaves or whorlled phylotoxy because that whorlled stuff aint good and is mainly down to rna damage and stuff to do with apical dominance hormones etc etc etc. Heat and ferts and very bad conditions can cause this.

Satived (i think i remember you from few years ago but possibly member with similar name when i grew soil) i can half agred with you but whorlled phylotoxy is not a very common trait and more common to see a trifolate plant.

I did a thread on this years back as my plants all started to do this crap all of a sudden, bad stress unfortunatly.

right now i have both normal and wp plants; the growth rate is the same on both (i'm leaning towards the wp showing better growth rate)
(i work in commercial aquaponics (produce) greenhouse and i push pruning to its limits to encourage growth)

from what i can tell the stress that caused the wp was from the cloning itself

i'm about 3-4 weeks away from flower and will record and compare at harvest, but as of right now wp looks the same or slightly better, not worse

i have heard that wp is very bad also, but i honestly don't see it, but problems may manifest during 12/12 photoperiod

@2Hearts based on some of your comments ("trifoliate" for example) I can tell you don't actually know what trifoliate is, and hence probably not what whorled phyllotaxy is. A very common mix up though. On the other hand you mentioned "apical dominance" you get points for that.

I really have no interest or desire discussing wp at riu or refuting misconceptions or fear for the unknown/mutations. Google "Breeding for whorls" for an indepth overview.

Sativied said:

@2Hearts based on some of your comments ("trifoliate" for example) I can tell you don't actually know what trifoliate is, and hence probably not what whorled phyllotaxy is. A very common mix up though. On the other hand you mentioned "apical dominance" you get points for that.

I really have no interest or desire discussing wp at riu or refuting misconceptions or fear for the unknown/mutations. Google "Breeding for whorls" for an indepth overview.

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Whorlled phy' is common in some plants not so common in others, my mention of whorlled phyllotoxy in marijuana is in reference to hormonal problems and bence why i mentiones apical dominance (i.e you generally find it at the top of the plant and ends of branches whilst lower growth looks good).

A trifolate is a genetic thing however and instead of two opposite leaves you get three at every internode. Mj growers tried to breed on the trifolate genes with little sucess and generally this dissapears.

Marijuana is also a genetic triploid or over hence the reason it hermies a lot.

It dosent matter i you agree or not but certainly food for thought and i have stated reasons for each genetic abnormallity in mj that are easily googlable, some plants (not mj) are naturally whorlled in their approch. Apparently if you revert a clone to veg causing a lot of stress or you repeatedly self cross a plant many times causing weak dna/rna it can show this expression of whorlled leaves from stress and i think thats more the situation here whereby its an environmental problem not genetics.

If i have time later i will rip a pic of internet that shows an early bud on a whorlled mj plant, its like three times the amount of flowers all bunched together and easy to see why mj growers wanted to breed this trait. Unfortunatly they couldnt as its not possible.

Heres a whorlled early bud, notice the bunched up leaves and massive amounts of early flowering/white pistils. Unfortunatly those same hormones that dictate opposite to alternate leaf patterns are the culprit and vastly outa whack.

On a side note if anyone manages to breed a stable genetic mj plant with whorlled phylotoxy id be the first to clone it off you and start my own seed bank and early retirement as all that cash flows in.