No-till probiotics sip experiment journal!

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
I did read the whole thread, I just didn't see that you changed anything from your first post. It looked like ROLS soil, Malibu compost, EM1, and compost tea.
you must not have lol, not trying to be mean, I swear don't take that the wrong way, I like you a lot!

but to answer your question, basically yes and no, there is no teas, ever! unless you count me cooking my soil, then yes I add a tea to that! but that's not really apart of this method!

I do use the same living soil. no different than yours or what I've always done! what is different, is once I do my final top dressing in veg, the top stays sealed until after harvest! no feedings, no top dressing, no teas, no nothing! just plain water and em1 in the rez around every 2-3 weeks (in veg) and about once a week in flower( depending on size of the plant and how fast she drinks the Rez dry). there is nothing else! it's the least amount if work I've ever seen on any grow, and by far the cheapest!

the whole idea, is to provide a perfect environment for life to thrive and take over! once set up and running your job is to fill up the rez when it goes dry, and then stay the hell out of the way! mother nature then takes over and grows the ladies far better than I ever could hope to do myself!
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
you must not have lol, not trying to be mean, I swear don't take that the wrong way, I like you a lot!
Your not going to hurt my feelings lol... I've just been chasing my tail and not really get much improvement, but I feel like I am close. I get my soil tested and it don't look like it is very far off, and a lot of times I feel like I should be getting better results. It seems like I am always chasing some sort of deficiency. Another problem is that I will read stuff and remember it, but I don't know how it all works together. Just like my last harvest, I knew that Ca and Mg would lock out K but that didn't stop me from adding Oyster shell flour during flower period. Needless to say, I locked out K. I'm always making some sort of dumb-ass mistake and after 8yrs the mistakes start getting depressing but I still learn from them. After trying different soil mixes, I'm going to stick with my compost that is always sky high in phosphorus and low in micronutrients. I thought that I could just fix the soil one time and call it good, but I think that I have to continually feed with Mn and Fe, just smaller amounts.
DSC01165.JPG
DSC01165.JPG
I feel like I am working too hard at this. I had a great harvest about 2yrs ago, so I got to see what it looks like and I've been missing every time since then. I also thought really hard about what I used in that batch of compost and what was right and wrong about it. I used rock phosphate and greensand, but I started having trouble with the compost after about 12mo and I blamed both of them. However, I think that the greensand was a big part of what I was missing and I haven't used it since my "great harvest of 2016".

The part that I was having trouble understanding was how you say ROLS soil and you didn't have to do all of this crazy shit to balance it. I'm assuming that you were having trouble with the soil outside of the SIP container? Maybe Malibu compost is better than I give it credit for? Man, what I am getting at is that I saw that you used dolomite lime but dolo completely fucked me last harvest because I was having K lockout/deficiency because I used a LOT of it in my peat. I let the peat sit in a composter for about 6-8mo with the dolomite in it and the soil that I made with it didn't do so hot at all. Everything looked great until week 5-6 of flower.
What you did just sounds too easy and I'm a little skeptical for some reason. I'm still going to make a DIY SIP and I actually came up with some decent ideas for some stuff that I have laying around. I have atleast one tote that I can use along with a tray from a Worm Farm 360. I'll flip it upside-down for the rez. If it works out, then I'll start making outdoor SIP beds.
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
Your not going to hurt my feelings lol... I've just been chasing my tail and not really get much improvement, but I feel like I am close. I get my soil tested and it don't look like it is very far off, and a lot of times I feel like I should be getting better results. It seems like I am always chasing some sort of deficiency. Another problem is that I will read stuff and remember it, but I don't know how it all works together. Just like my last harvest, I knew that Ca and Mg would lock out K but that didn't stop me from adding Oyster shell flour during flower period. Needless to say, I locked out K. I'm always making some sort of dumb-ass mistake and after 8yrs the mistakes start getting depressing but I still learn from them. After trying different soil mixes, I'm going to stick with my compost that is always sky high in phosphorus and low in micronutrients. I thought that I could just fix the soil one time and call it good, but I think that I have to continually feed with Mn and Fe, just smaller amounts.
View attachment 4290938
View attachment 4290938
I feel like I am working too hard at this. I had a great harvest about 2yrs ago, so I got to see what it looks like and I've been missing every time since then. I also thought really hard about what I used in that batch of compost and what was right and wrong about it. I used rock phosphate and greensand, but I started having trouble with the compost after about 12mo and I blamed both of them. However, I think that the greensand was a big part of what I was missing and I haven't used it since my "great harvest of 2016".

The part that I was having trouble understanding was how you say ROLS soil and you didn't have to do all of this crazy shit to balance it. I'm assuming that you were having trouble with the soil outside of the SIP container? Maybe Malibu compost is better than I give it credit for? Man, what I am getting at is that I saw that you used dolomite lime but dolo completely fucked me last harvest because I was having K lockout/deficiency because I used a LOT of it in my peat. I let the peat sit in a composter for about 6-8mo with the dolomite in it and the soil that I made with it didn't do so hot at all. Everything looked great until week 5-6 of flower.
What you did just sounds too easy and I'm a little skeptical for some reason. I'm still going to make a DIY SIP and I actually came up with some decent ideas for some stuff that I have laying around. I have atleast one tote that I can use along with a tray from a Worm Farm 360. I'll flip it upside-down for the rez. If it works out, then I'll start making outdoor SIP beds.
if you ask me... which you didnt LOL.... there are a couple things I would note about your thought process...

1) compost is just carbon for the microbes. I really don't see the need to worry about amending it at all. if you do, less is more. I draw this conclusion based on the fact that we add amendments to the soil... so why do we need to amend the compost when it's really just food for the microbes? just focus on making good quality compost (which you do cause you got all them wormies).

2) recently I have discovered that adding OSF or Dolo to recycled mixes every time seems (keyword) pointless. There is no need to buffer anymore because the mix just turns into compost after 1 or 2 cycles, so the peat gets neutralized. Compost is a natural buffer. So why buffer a buffer? Makes no sense if you ask me! The plant will put protons in the soil when it needs too help with acidity during cation exchange with the substrate, and fungi will help with acidity too (digestive acidic enzymes). So, I've been omitting the OSF from my recycled mixes recently and haven't noticed the slightest bit of Ca def (yet!). We'll see after a few more recycles... but If ya ask me I think I got plenty of Ca... gypsum (which does not act as a pH buffer), glacial rock dust, crab shell meal, kelp, worm castings (which have a calcitic slime on them from what I understand). I'm sure I even missed one or two inputs.

3) I no longer add additional compost to my recycled mixes. Think about the carbon cycle in the soil... we're not fighting erosion or leaching indoors in containers or beds, so the carbon really isn't going anywhere. Plants build themselves of inorganic carbon, not soil carbon. So the microbes cycle carbon amongst themselves and that carbon stays put. If you leave roots in the recycle mix, thats brand new carbon added to the soil via the plant. when you add additional amendments to the mix, thats additional carbon. when your mulch layer breaks down... guess what? more carbon! Gotta have more carbon baby! (like christopher walken and cowbell! LOL). Adding compost tea... yup, more carbon. the biology you breed in the tea is more carbon. I may toss a handful or two of castings into a recycle mix just to re-inoculate... but that's it anymore. no more large additions of organic matter. just pointless imo.

fwiw, i think greensand is a great product. slow release K. like real slow. perfect. that's all we need. and I also think langebenite could be another great product, just used in smaller amounts because of the high K and the additional Mg... so maybe no more than 1/4c per cu.ft.

just my ramblings and thoughts from the last couple years of doing this. I'm by no means a veteran... but I try and approach things somewhat scientifically (or maybe more methodically) rather than just adding stuff because I read about it from outdated posts on here (not saying you're doing this but I think you get what I'm saying, we have more knowledge now than we did years ago). I ruined some soil in my short career of organic growing. pH got way too high, yields suffered, and when I reset with fresh coot mixes, what do ya know... problem solved. So I tried to think about what I was doing that was causing that. I came up with... over buffering, too much organic matter additions, too much fertilizer (after recycles), too much bacteria (which support slightly basic conditions) and not enough fungi (which support acidic conditions), and not having enough fungal foods (brown mulch). i don't brew bacteria anymore, only fungal brews.

Sorry bout the novel. But I do enjoy me some soil discussion!
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
if you ask me... which you didnt LOL.... there are a couple things I would note about your thought process...

1) compost is just carbon for the microbes. I really don't see the need to worry about amending it at all. if you do, less is more. I draw this conclusion based on the fact that we add amendments to the soil... so why do we need to amend the compost when it's really just food for the microbes? just focus on making good quality compost (which you do cause you got all them wormies).

2) recently I have discovered that adding OSF or Dolo to recycled mixes every time seems (keyword) pointless. There is no need to buffer anymore because the mix just turns into compost after 1 or 2 cycles, so the peat gets neutralized. Compost is a natural buffer. So why buffer a buffer? Makes no sense if you ask me! The plant will put protons in the soil when it needs too help with acidity during cation exchange with the substrate, and fungi will help with acidity too (digestive acidic enzymes). So, I've been omitting the OSF from my recycled mixes recently and haven't noticed the slightest bit of Ca def (yet!). We'll see after a few more recycles... but If ya ask me I think I got plenty of Ca... gypsum (which does not act as a pH buffer), glacial rock dust, crab shell meal, kelp, worm castings (which have a calcitic slime on them from what I understand). I'm sure I even missed one or two inputs.

3) I no longer add additional compost to my recycled mixes. Think about the carbon cycle in the soil... we're not fighting erosion or leaching indoors in containers or beds, so the carbon really isn't going anywhere. Plants build themselves of inorganic carbon, not soil carbon. So the microbes cycle carbon amongst themselves and that carbon stays put. If you leave roots in the recycle mix, thats brand new carbon added to the soil via the plant. when you add additional amendments to the mix, thats additional carbon. when your mulch layer breaks down... guess what? more carbon! Gotta have more carbon baby! (like christopher walken and cowbell! LOL). Adding compost tea... yup, more carbon. the biology you breed in the tea is more carbon. I may toss a handful or two of castings into a recycle mix just to re-inoculate... but that's it anymore. no more large additions of organic matter. just pointless imo.

fwiw, i think greensand is a great product. slow release K. like real slow. perfect. that's all we need. and I also think langebenite could be another great product, just used in smaller amounts because of the high K and the additional Mg... so maybe no more than 1/4c per cu.ft.

just my ramblings and thoughts from the last couple years of doing this. I'm by no means a veteran... but I try and approach things somewhat scientifically (or maybe more methodically) rather than just adding stuff because I read about it from outdated posts on here (not saying you're doing this but I think you get what I'm saying, we have more knowledge now than we did years ago). I ruined some soil in my short career of organic growing. pH got way too high, yields suffered, and when I reset with fresh coot mixes, what do ya know... problem solved. So I tried to think about what I was doing that was causing that. I came up with... over buffering, too much organic matter additions, too much fertilizer (after recycles), too much bacteria (which support slightly basic conditions) and not enough fungi (which support acidic conditions), and not having enough fungal foods (brown mulch). i don't brew bacteria anymore, only fungal brews.

Sorry bout the novel. But I do enjoy me some soil discussion!
and that's why I need your help with this shit! your a fucking genius! as I've said before! I wish I was filthy rich! I'd hire and fly your ass here, then pick your Dam brain! lol, I can't wait till you give this method a run(the probiotic sips), I already know your going to find ways to make it even better!

If I can just get a few more guys like you on board, and intrested and discussing this! One day I think we can beat the hydro guys!!! hell I'm already beating the really shitty hydro guys lmfao!
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
and that's why I need your help with this shit! your a fucking genius! as I've said before! I wish I was filthy rich! I'd hire and fly your ass here, then pick your Dam brain! lol, I can't wait till you give this method a run(the probiotic sips), I already know your going to find ways to make it even better!

If I can just get a few more guys like you on board, and intrested and discussing this! One day I think we can beat the hydro guys!!! hell I'm already beating the really shitty hydro guys lmfao!
it's the same plant, hydro or organic soil... a fine tuned organic system should at least perform as good as a hydro system... if not better. Goals!
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
it's the same plant, hydro or organic soil... a fine tuned organic system should at least perform as good as a hydro system... if not better. Goals!
I'm working on the new and final thread! it better be the dam last lmfao, I do love this method but getting tired of writing about it! check it out, in the organic thread,
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
hopefully I can put everything down correctly and just let it go! it's only about the method, no plants or any one grow! just everything I know! and hopefully what other ppl know! I could use your help man! maybe toss in a few good links, or w.e.!
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
1) compost is just carbon for the microbes. I really don't see the need to worry about amending it at all.
I showed you the soil test, it's not like I am throwing a huge amount of anything at it anymore. Really, the only thing that I am trying to get my compost to break down is some rock dust. Specifically azomite and greensand. I used alfalfa, kelp, and greensand. After the soil test, I added Mn sulfate. I know that the greensand is going to take a while to break down.

My fungal compost is not quite ready yet and I hope that it speeds up when the weather gets warmer. I collected these leaves in Nov 2017 and they are still not ready.
DSC01128.JPG
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
hopefully I can put everything down correctly and just let it go! it's only about the method, no plants or any one grow! just everything I know! and hopefully what other ppl know! I could use your help man! maybe toss in a few good links, or w.e.!
It seems like your last harvest was spot on, I don't see why you think that you need that much help. I was a little jealous because I've been at this for over 8yrs and still have problems.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
2) recently I have discovered that adding OSF or Dolo to recycled mixes every time seems (keyword) pointless. There is no need to buffer anymore because the mix just turns into compost after 1 or 2 cycles, so the peat gets neutralized. Compost is a natural buffer. So why buffer a buffer? Makes no sense if you ask me! The plant will put protons in the soil when it needs too help with acidity during cation exchange with the substrate, and fungi will help with acidity too (digestive acidic enzymes). So, I've been omitting the OSF from my recycled mixes recently and haven't noticed the slightest bit of Ca def (yet!). We'll see after a few more recycles... but If ya ask me I think I got plenty of Ca... gypsum (which does not act as a pH buffer), glacial rock dust, crab shell meal, kelp, worm castings (which have a calcitic slime on them from what I understand). I'm sure I even missed one or two inputs.
I specifically picked greensand because it don't have calcium and azomite and greensand both have Mn. The reason that I am getting away from high Ca and Mg inputs is because I had a K def my last run. I might not be the smartest guy around, but I do learn from my mistakes. I would like to think that my soil only needs a little dose of micronutrients. The OP had some great looking plants, but I saw tip burn that I usually get from micronutrient deficiency. I just don't feel like I am in a position to be coaching people right now.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
1) compost is just carbon for the microbes. I really don't see the need to worry about amending it at all. if you do, less is more. I draw this conclusion based on the fact that we add amendments to the soil... so why do we need to amend the compost when it's really just food for the microbes? just focus on making good quality compost (which you do cause you got all them wormies).
I guess what I am trying to say is that I am only amending to fix deficiencies. My compost is basically recycled soil that composted for about 18months. My worm bin is seperate from my recycled soil.
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
It seems like your last harvest was spot on, I don't see why you think that you need that much help. I was a little jealous because I've been at this for over 8yrs and still have problems.
thank you, but it's not that I need help getting a better harvest, the results are there obviously, I want to understand why and how! I want to be able to tweak it and dail it in! I can't do that unless I understand more in depth!
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
thank you, but it's not that I need help getting a better harvest, the results are there obviously, I want to understand why and how! I want to be able to tweak it and dail it in! I can't do that unless I understand more in depth!
you wanna speed up your learning curve... if you got a community college close to ya, go take a few classes. get the basics in if you haven't already... chem I, II, and organic chem (fundamentals), botany, microbial ecology/microbiology, geology, stuff like that. Sure helps when someone makes you learn it lol.
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
you wanna speed up your learning curve... if you got a community college close to ya, go take a few classes. get the basics in if you haven't already... chem I, II, and organic chem (fundamentals), botany, microbial ecology/microbiology, geology, stuff like that. Sure helps when someone makes you learn it lol.
yea I just don't care for school lol, I want to get all the Jeff lowens books! after studying that for a while, I think I can step up my game! this harvest will help alot!
 

ShLUbY

Well-Known Member
yea I just don't care for school lol, I want to get all the Jeff lowens books! after studying that for a while, I think I can step up my game! this harvest will help alot!
When you want to learn something... school becomes less of a chore. (problem is what you want to learn is only about 25% of the material lol)

I own two of Lowenfel's books and haven't had the time to read them (bought them while I was in school). Also have breeder's guide and one other title I can't recall. I can't wait to start reading for pleasure again (instead of pain for school i.e. textbooks). I hardly have any pleasure time while classes are in session! We need a new education system... this shit burns kids out just to throw them into the work force and start to generate that tax money. My university doesn't do much to make it fun for the kids unless it makes them money somehow. I'm glad I dropped out when I was younger. I had no clue who I was or what I wanted to do. Took me almost 10 years to figure it out but I finally got there :)
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
you must not have lol, not trying to be mean, I swear don't take that the wrong way, I like you a lot!
See, I didn't know that you had a whole different thread... I stopped by and it answered most of the questions that I asked. Anyways, I'm putting a shopping list together and I'm looking at 32&45Gal totes. I ordered the rubber gromments with the pvc elbow. The thing that I am going to do different is the screen and lid. I'll probably keep the original lid intact and use a 6" hole saw and use trash bag to cover a smaller hole. The screen on bottom is probably going to be made out of a DIY PVC stand(similar to your SCRoG) and use wire mesh.
 

Greenthumbs256

Well-Known Member
See, I didn't know that you had a whole different thread... I stopped by and it answered most of the questions that I asked. Anyways, I'm putting a shopping list together and I'm looking at 32&45Gal totes. I ordered the rubber gromments with the pvc elbow. The thing that I am going to do different is the screen and lid. I'll probably keep the original lid intact and use a 6" hole saw and use trash bag to cover a smaller hole. The screen on bottom is probably going to be made out of a DIY PVC stand(similar to your SCRoG) and use wire mesh.
2 things, 1 I hope that above pic posted is not for the scrog, I wouldn't recommend!

2 I don't think a mesh floor will work out very well, bc you don't want your rez getting full of soil! if u can avoid that then great.

but I'd love to see your pics and your design! I'm sure many way will work!

also, I have about 4 or 5 threads on this my bad on that! but most important info, is all on the new thread!
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
I thought about it for a couple of days and I came up with some window screen that I have. I can make the base out of PVC and use the wire mesh, but I'll cover it with window screen. I'm just trying to work with what I have on hand. MacGyver used to be my favorite show as a kid...

The SCRoG screen was basically going to be like yours, PVC frame with trellis netting. It looks like you spent a good amount of time on your screen. I have a 6x16' area and I should have made some sort of screen a long time ago. Time to get a lot of pvc, elbows, and T's lol.

I have 2 extra plants that are in the way. I have an open 4x8 tent also. Normally, I wouldn't expect 2 plants to fill a 4x8 lol.
 

MustangStudFarm

Well-Known Member
Sorry man, I just smoked a J and I can't even follow what I just wrote.

What I mean by the base is the part that keeps the soil out of the rez. On normal SIPs, there is an air gap between the rez and soil. Do you do it the same way?
 
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