Next on stage... ... ... Rita Fang and the Alibaba QBs!

Prawn Connery · Jan 15, 2019

ChiefRunningPhist said:
What's up clones (yes that's a Jim Rome reference, welcome to the jungle), this is a thread to post any pics of your Alibaba QB chips for community help and verification.

I'm putting Rita on blast. Or whoever is behind the keyboard. If you buy from Rita Fang, she will tell you they are s6 but then expect the moon to prove they aren't.

If anyone out there wants to do a test on my chips hmu, I'm willing to pay a little for your time. Chiefrunningphist is on the war path.

Where she's trying to asess my aptitude and how much she can pull the veil over my eyes, lol accuses me of working for Samsung ...
View attachment 4265056 View attachment 4265057 View attachment 4265058

Where she says she's never been questioned the chip they use...
View attachment 4265060 View attachment 4265061

Where she tells me they are s6...
View attachment 4265062

Where I try to throw my only negotiating power around..
View attachment 4265067

Now I'm getting frustrated, also where she battles not to make a sale and calls me dishonest...
View attachment 4265066 View attachment 4265068 View attachment 4265069

Anyone have any Rita issues? If so how were they resolved?

You also missed a trick here.

If she's asking if you work for Samsung, then she must have asked that for a good reason.

Sounds to me like they've been caught out - or at least suspected by Samsung - of selling cheaper LM561B+ or low Flux bin LM561C LEDs under the guise of "LM561C S6".

Do you guys honestly believe there are that many Samsung LM561C AZ S6 LEDs in the world? Where did they all come from? And what happened to all the S4, S5 and higher voltage bins? Where are all the LM561B+ LEDs?

Another mystery of the universe to keep us all awake at night . . .

Rocket Soul · Jan 15, 2019

Prawn Connery said:
First step, download the LM561C and LM561B+ datasheets.

Second step, measure your diodes with a micrometer or vernier scale to ensure they are the same as spec.

Third step, fire up the boards and measure voltage and current to the board.

Here's a tip: LM561C and LM561B+ are actually the same diode. Yes, you read that correctly.

When Samsung - or any other manufacturer - casts a LED, there are tolerances associated with the manufacturing process. Small variations lead to different Flux outputs and different voltage drops for the same current. The LM561B+ is in fact an LM561C but with a higher voltage drop - which makes it a less efficient (and hence less desirable and cheaper) LED. One is rated at 200mA (LM561C) and the other at 180mA (LM561B+) for this reason.

You cannot tell the difference by looking at them physically. Don't believe me?

Look at the spec sheets and point out the differences in physical dimensions. There are none.

Now look at the same spec sheets and point out the differences in Flux bins. There are none. (Actually there are, but only in 2700K.)

Now look at the same spec sheets and point out the differences in voltage bins. BINGO!

Now go back and test your boards and if the voltage drop is higher than the LM561C AZ voltage bin, it is an LM561B+ . . . or is it?

LM561B+ also has an AZ voltage bin. And an A1 (same as LM561C).

Fact is, they are the same LED divided into different batches and given different name codes.

First cut - those within tolerance - are LM561C, and within that designation are different Flux, colour and voltage bins.

Second cut - those mostly out of LM561C tolerance - are labelled LM561B+, and within that designation are different Flux, colour and voltage bins of equal or lower quality or efficiency compared to the above.

Some LM561B+ will just just as efficient as some LM561C LEDs. But the best B+s won't be as good as the best Cs, and on the whole (average) the B+s will be lower efficiency than the Cs - which is reflected in the forward voltage specs.

The bottom line is, if they have a higher voltage drop - which you can test yourself using a multimeter - they are likely LM561B+. But the only way to know if they are S6 or lower is to sphere test them.

Now go back to Rita and show her all this and tell her you work for Samsung

I can see differences between lm561c and b+ right in those pics above. Not as in what bin, but yes between the 2 models.

Lm561c: the centre yellow bit, that sits in the middle of the orange phosphor is larger than the lm561b+ and the b as well, as per pics provided.

Prawn Connery · Jan 15, 2019

Do those figures include the 660 reds? Or are they on a separate channel? Sorry, I don't know much about the Chinese 304s.

AZ voltage bin is 2.7-2.8V at 65mA and 25C.

At 44C, there will be a 0.7% fall in voltage, which is negligible.

Prawn Connery · Jan 15, 2019

Rocket Soul said:
I can see differences between lm561c and b+ right in those pics above. Not as in what bin, but yes between the 2 models.

Lm561c: the centre yellow bit, that sits in the middle of the orange phosphor is larger than the lm561b+ and the b as well, as per pics provided.

Are you looking at the spec sheets?

Rocket Soul · Jan 15, 2019

Prawn Connery said:
Are you looking at the spec sheets?

No, the posted pics. This has also been posted before but i dunno where. Basicly it looks like the middle bit in yellow, sitting in the orange (and most likely thicker) phophor, well it looks a bit bigger. Either that or the depresion it sits in is smaller or something. Zoom in on the pics posted in this thread.
I might be wrong but its what it looks like to me.

Prawn Connery · Jan 15, 2019

Rocket Soul said:
I can see differences between lm561c and b+ right in those pics above. Not as in what bin, but yes between the 2 models.

Lm561c: the centre yellow bit, that sits in the middle of the orange phosphor is larger than the lm561b+ and the b as well, as per pics provided.

You might be right. But that might also be core shift in the casting. Which means they may still have come off the same production line (but at different times, or with different dies). I don't work for Samsung, so I don't know for sure, but reading the spec sheets it appears to me they are the same diode batched into different tolerances.

ChiefRunningPhist · Jan 15, 2019

Prawn Connery said:
Do those figures include the 660 reds? Or are they on a separate channel? Sorry, I don't know much about the Chinese 304s.

AZ voltage bin is 2.7-2.8V at 65mA and 25C.

At 44C, there will be a 0.7% fall in voltage, which is negligible.

Yep those measurements include the 660nm. The board is 38S8P. 256 Lm561cS6 (supposedly) and 48 epistar 660nm with a 180mA max current.

When they fire up tonight I'll test individual voltage (instead of via average of total circuit). But current will be set @ 165mA, hopefully things can still be determinate at that I.

Rocket Soul · Jan 15, 2019

"Die" is there word i was looking for but now it seems a bit aggressive...

ChiefRunningPhist · Jan 15, 2019

Prawn Connery said:
You might be right. But that might also be core shift in the casting. Which means they may still have come off the same production line (but at different times, or with different dies). I don't work for Samsung, so I don't know for sure, but reading the spec sheets it appears to me they are the same diode batched into different tolerances.

Is there a graph for individual bins to match V with I?

Prawn Connery · Jan 15, 2019

ChiefRunningPhist said:
Is there a graph for individual bins to match V with I?

It's in the spec sheets. There's a forward voltage vs current graph. But that is for a "tyipcal" LED, so you have to extrapolate. For example, the LM561C Vf vs If graph follows the AZ (2.7-2.8 ) Vf bin.

Here's the LM561B+ datasheet: https://cdn.samsung.com/led/file/resource/2018/10/Data_Sheet_LM561B_Plus_CRI80_Rev.8.3.pdf

Here's a B datatsheet - the B is physically different to the B+ and C, which are physically identical (outwardly, anyway): https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Samsung PDFs/LM561B_5630MidPwrLED_Rev001.pdf

ChiefRunningPhist · Jan 15, 2019

Rocket Soul said:
No, the posted pics. This has also been posted before but i dunno where. Basicly it looks like the middle bit in yellow, sitting in the orange (and most likely thicker) phophor, well it looks a bit bigger. Either that or the depresion it sits in is smaller or something. Zoom in on the pics posted in this thread.
I might be wrong but its what it looks like to me.

That's quite the detailed eye! I tried to crop them so they are relatively more the same size..

Digikey S6...

Digikey BplusS5...

1 of mine...

Prawn Connery · Jan 15, 2019

Rocket Soul said:
"Die" is there word i was looking for but now it seems a bit aggressive...

EDIT: You were right

ChiefRunningPhist · Jan 15, 2019

Prawn Connery said:
It's in the spec sheets. There's a forward voltage vs current graph. But that is for a "tyipcal" LED, so you have to extrapolate. For example, the LM561C Vf vs If graph follows the AZ (2.7-2.8 ) Vf bin.

Here's the LM561B+ datasheet: https://cdn.samsung.com/led/file/resource/2018/10/Data_Sheet_LM561B_Plus_CRI80_Rev.8.3.pdf

Here's a B datatsheet - the B is physically different to the B+ and C, which are physically identical (outwardly, anyway): https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data Sheets/Samsung PDFs/LM561B_5630MidPwrLED_Rev001.pdf

So that's what's I've supposedly been given, AZ, so my interpolations should coincide with the measurements if they are AZ s6, correct?

Looks like my voltage is way lower than expected at 165mA (~2.95v)? My total circuit voltage is 108.2v but should be 112ish if they were all LM561. I'm guessing the epistar are throwing it off?

Prawn Connery · Jan 15, 2019

ChiefRunningPhist said:
The only thing is I've been advised there's low voltage b's & b+'s???

I too noticed the 180mA vs 200mA in the data sheets when I looked them over.

I told her I was an engineer.

Yes, but the B looks different physically to the B+.

If I am wrong about the two diodes (B+ and C) being the same casting, then at least the spec sheets list LEDs from both batches that have identical bins - which means they will have identical efficiency.

The reason B+ is rated at 180mA and the C at 200mA is because the B+ has higher voltage bins which will generate more heat (higher wattage) at the same current.

If I were selling dodgy LEDs, I probably wouldn't try to pass off higher voltage bins, as that's fairly easy to test. So you could have C or B+ LEDs of the same voltage, and maybe one is cheaper.

More likely, I would try to pass off lower Flux bins as higher, because there only way to test that is with a sphere, and very few people have access to one.

ApfelStrudel · Jan 15, 2019

Die on the B is smaller wich makes the difference in length of the bond wire from zener to substrate and distance from the die. OP you definitely got C, however its hard to tell from the pics the actual difference in the phosphors, 6 seem to have a slightly thicker layer than 5 so bond wires from zener to the substrate and from substrate to die are less visible. Those could also be same bin but different tint.

Prawn Connery · Jan 15, 2019

ChiefRunningPhist said:
So that's what's I've supposedly been given, AZ, so my interpolations should coincide with the measurements if they are AZ s6, correct?
View attachment 4265201

Only AZ - that is the voltage bin. S6 is the Flux bin and the only way to confirm this is to sphere test the total luminous output.

ChiefRunningPhist said:
Looks like my voltage is way lower than expected at 165mA (~2.95v)? My total circuit voltage is 108.2v but should be 112ish if they were all LM561. I'm guessing the epistar are throwing it off?

Most likely. I don't know the specs on that one. In large circuits, there may also be a very small amount of voltage drop associated with the copper trace. Again, I don't know how much, but I'd assume it would be less than 1V on a board such as yours.

ApfelStrudel · Jan 15, 2019

Prawn Connery said:
Only AZ - that is the voltage bin. S6 is the Flux bin and the only way to confirm this is to sphere test the total luminous output.

Most likely. I don't know the specs on that one. In large circuits, there may also be a very small amount of voltage drop associated with the copper trace. Again, I don't know how much, but I'd assume it would be less than 1V on a board such as yours.

Bang on!

aabra.420 · Jan 15, 2019

New
hey guys im growing this barneys farm lsd
what do you think about this plants health ?
its 3 weeks old under the cxb 3590 total 5 cobs
@1400mA
light is 30 inches from the canopy.
but the leafs look little yellow.
what could be the cause ?

Prawn Connery · Jan 15, 2019

If you're growing in coco, don't let it dry out so much. Also, water until you have a bit of runoff to ensure you flush out left-over salts.

It doesn't look too bad, but appears like you've been letting it dry out too much and probably haven't been flushing it much.

KrazyG · Jan 15, 2019

aabra.420 said:
New
hey guys im growing this barneys farm lsd
what do you think about this plants health ?
its 3 weeks old under the cxb 3590 total 5 cobs
@1400mA
light is 30 inches from the canopy.
but the leafs look little yellow.
what could be the cause ?View attachment 4265219

Not been a dick but try not to hijack threads buddy

Next on stage... ... ... Rita Fang and the Alibaba QBs!

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