neerGreen #2: Let's try soilless

cannabineer said:

About $1150. We need an "ouch!" smilie! cn

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how much!!! How is it working. I was going to get one if i saw results but i did not know the price. Is it low on heat. Hehe you said empirical. i get a kick out of scientific references

wow look at that spectrum. you could use that for both veg and flower....hmmm

PLASMA


HPS

Yuh, that spectrum gave me a moist feeling as well ... but I have to say I am not happy with the results at this time. The plants went "hangdog" on me and haven't recovered. They are slowly growing, but the way they minimized their shade area strikes me as an avoidance response. I am still hoping they'll acclimate and begin to take off ... but The jury's still out. What i have done is hang the light higher ... there are now eighteen inches between source and the crown of my tallest plant.

Here they are in their pint pots last night.
First pic : plant 2 (the Gimp) and plant 3, one of the Healthy Sisters.


Second pic: plant 1 (the quasiGimp. Quasimodo?) and plant 4.

Today's project: repotting. I potted them up into 1-gallon pots salvaged from the nursery's dump. I washed them and dried them for a coupla weeks, and today made a huge mess in my kitchen sink with ProMix.
Here's my first victim (Quasi) out of the pot. The roots look pretty good, but just not as thick as I'd expect from a six-week-old.

Here's me bringing out the Gimp. She looks nasty, but is alive. I've noticed that the heaviest-affected leaves are going rust-brown in patches ... but some of the side growth shows healthy. Go figure.

The Healthy Sisters. Number 4 is first, and she's the most vibrant ... the least "hangdog". Number 3 has developed mildly folded leaves.

Here's the quartet in their new homes. I "watered in" with plenty of tap water (50 ppm today), and after they sat, gave each one 500 ml of 500 ppm Tactical Nute combined with SuperThrive (as per a recommendation) 2.5 ml into two liters. It contains rooting hormones and should maybe ease the shock of transition.

So what can I say? On the plus side, they're alive, four for four, and I have not managed to kill them yet.
On the downside, my high hopes for the plasma light aren't realized at this time. I'll keep this up for a week ... and if no improvement, I'm biting the bullet and rigging the 600W MH.
cn

It's been a bit since I posted any progress, because basically these plants have been serving me my ego, thinly sliced and in its own juices.
Once I repotted them, the "hangdog" condition didn't change, and at once there developed yellow/rusty patches on the main fan leaves.
I got two tips from other growers regarding what could cause this:
1) thrips
2) pH
The thrips thing is fascinating because these bugs are so tiny that they can be missed even at 20X. So I got some "Safer" soap and have given the plants three thorough sprayings-down.
Here are the plants as of Monday the 3rd. Here is one of the Healthy Sisters, showing yellowing ... and those mauvey-gray patches on the big fan leaf.


The other Sister looked no better off.

So I essentially ignored the plants for a few days, while exploring the pH side of the equation.
When I repotted them, I noticed that the pH of my last few ml of nute read four point six on my pH meter! I'd mixed that batch to 5.57 ... and had no idea how the pH went so far down.
The previous day I'd mixed a pot of nute to 790 ppm and pH 5.5. I rechecked it, and it had gone into the fours as well!!!!! I still had two liters of that left, and noticed that within a day of mixing, it became cloudy, and the pH descended all the way to 4.38. That's pretty danged sour.
I also mixed a fresh batch of 780 ppm at five point six. I was careful to not contaminate this (I think the bugs came from a month-old bucket of RO water. I washed the bucket with soap and ran fresh RO water into it.) and over the past week, its pH has been stable. I've just poured it into the contaminated Erlenmeyer in which i ran my microbiology "experiment".

Back to the sour batch ... two days ago the pH had risen to 4.8x, and today it read five point eight ... slightly sweeter than start. The brew was cloudy with tatters of bacterial scum ... I'm guessing they ran out of eats, died and returned their pilfered ions back to the solution.
Figuring that my pots were similarly inoculated ... and the plants survived, I shrugged and watered with this.

Here are the two Healthy Sisters ... their skirts look lousy but the shoulders/tops are thriving. After watering with the "recovered" nute, the first one's runoff was 810 ppm and pH 6.15. So for now I am calling the pH situation "provisionally settled" but am keeping a sharp eye on feed pH.

Here's Quasimodo, looking leggy and a bit Gimpy.

The Gimp herself. Those leaves look awful, but she's doing well otherwise, and the foliage on the branches looks rather more normal.

Here are the four under the Secret Sunlet. I have begun to LST them and am seriously considering whacking the twin tops and trying to clone them.

cn

Ur plants are borked bro

Plants are borked, you say??
Useless comment demands like.
Haiku my revenge.
cn

Dang! cn is bad ass! Im lovin this. subbed and learning! PEACEandLOVE! borking is good! cn's borking technique will prob be described to ya noobs on another thread!

Xub420 said:

Dang! cn is bad ass! Im lovin this. subbed and learning! PEACEandLOVE! borking is good! cn's borking technique will prob be described to ya noobs on another thread!

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Despite his slight lack of manners, I must partially agree with spaceinvaders.
This is the second run of leaf trouble/growth issues I've had during this grow.
I really was expecting to have big bushy plants by this point, but my level of fill in the tent is still something like 10%. I cannot in good conscience call this a well-executed grow ... but here's the good news. i'm being exposed to challenges I'd not anticipated and am learning.
I've also gained something valuable: that special combination of experience and simple fatigue that make me slow down and not thrash in five directions at once when it hits the fan. I'm down to two or maybe three, to the plants' probable relief.

In any case, i have some ambitions for today. If a photo post appears soon, then you'll know I didn't just wander off distracted ... cn

Looks like I'm late to the soiless party! This is how I started growing, and not much has changed since. I just start off with sunshine #4, the earth juice nutrient line (grow, flower, catalyst), throw in in the closet under 600 and boom it's some of the best herbs I've seen. I recently just added endo and ecto mico bennys to my feeding. This caused my first problem* in soiless yet. My roots exploded significantly faster than ever before and I became root bound before I normally transplant. I will never go back to just using catalyst alone for my soiless life. Lol it threw me for such a loop I was really confused what was happening. But now I just know to transplant sooner. my leaves were all turning in and getting N hungry even though I was giving enough of it. Transplant fixed it ASAP tho.

Your setup for soiless and feeding seems a bit more complicated than mine however. I was literally able to pull a very impressive first harvest with my simple method. My yeild has finally caught up to the quality of product, so I'm happy doig it the easy way. To be honest I don't even have a feeding schedule, appart from just remembering the last time I fed the girls and how much. I just love organics in soiless! Hell I don't even look at ph anymore!

hey dude gave both your journals a good read, and have to say I really like how meticulous and thorough you are when applying nutrients. I know you were expected something a bit more by this point man but the fact that you recovered (doesn't always happen like that in soilless) and learned a lesson in the process means it was beneficial to some degree. Cannot wait to see what's on the horizon, best of luck to you and your girls man

cannabineer said:

.....snip........This is the second run of leaf trouble/growth issues I've had during this grow. ........snip........

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Yes and both of them occurred with your own nutrient mix, the plasma light and Pro Mix. There are far to many 'new' (to you), variables to make sense here and you are changing things to fast, (as you called it thrash).

Please rescue these:
(1) Re-pot to Pro Mix cut with a generous 50% with large Perlite, or move to Advanced Sunshine, then
(2) Put up your T5 or your Metal Halide or HPS (any will work), last but not least
(3) Dump the nutrients and move to a known good say GH Flora series.

Then give them at least 2 weeks and I'd probably give them a month and then take a bunch of clones. Then experiment with some clones:

(1) One batch gets a known good soil mix, known good nute and the plasma, then
(2) Second batch gets known good soil mix, your new nute mix and a traditional light, lastly
(3) Third batch gets the different soil mix you choose, known good nute and traditional light.
(4) A control group of clones that get all traditional light, media and nutrient.

You don't need me to tell you about controlling variables in vivo experimentation you know far more about that then I do. But you may well lose this grow completely. Worse you won't get any clear information on why you lost them, as it could be due to any of the three different variables or unknown factors not even mentioned. Hence why you need a control.

Oh and don't forget to get a good fan on them (thrips hate that).

Folks, i apologize for posting so little of late. I appreciate all the comments.

Here's where I am now.

These are the gals a week ago on Dec 12 (yes, 12/12/12!) The first pic is before i topped a second time. The second is ~blush~ also before topping. i could a sworn I took one just after topping. My camera mislaid it.


Here are the eight tops in my baby aerocloner. So far no roots! I have'm under one 26W CFL in a closet.

Here are two pics of the Gimp today. I do think that she got sunburnt under the plasma. i found marks on her half-healthy sister Quasi's leaves that suggest that where they were shaded, they were healthier. Pics taken in sunlight.

Here are the four today after a feed and spraydown with Safer soap. They're under the 600 Ushio MH as of yesterday morning. They seem to like it.


I've done two things since i last checked in. The first was to stop swimming against the current with the plasma light. It seems to do a good job with the healthies, but my two less-healthy phenos show a tendency to burn the plants. I've put the tried-and-true MH in its vented hood (Sun Systems XXXL six-inch vents) in place of the plasma. I've left the fan just upstream of the carbon canister; this seems to work well.

I've stayed with my home-mix nute but have been bringing the pH incrementally up. The current batch is at pH 6.18 and 790 ppm. Each pot consumed 750 ml of nute before liquid came out the bottom. What came out was initially between 800 and 880 ppm, but after 100 ml had drained, i was getting readings as low as 730 ppm before the strength recovered to 790.
The other thing is that effluent pH was between 5.71 and 5.80. I am learning that ProMix doesn't do its best with true-hydro pH. i think i'm reaching the bottom of the good pH zone for this strain and medium, since the leaf necrosis has slowed way down. The coming week will help to either prove this concept, or ~vigorous chin-scratching noises~ cn

cannabineer said:

.........snip.......... ~vigorous chin-scratching noises~ cn

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Ahhh so THAT explains your avatar! ;D

Yep ... I'm always pondering summat.

Here they are today. In the past few days they have grown well, and the Two Healthies have acquired excellent color. And the necrosis is stopped cold.
Looks like that plasma light was not what I'd hoped it would be ... heck; it isn't even in the ballpark. The MH is very much preferred by these plants.

Here's a Healthy next to Quasi. Initial runoff 1040 ppm and a pH of 5.50! I'm not sure if it's the peat beginning to sour ... or the plants selectively slurping cations. They need to return a proton (= acidity) for each cation taken in.
Interestingly I am in full veg, and 780 ppm is on the high side of good.

Here's the other Healthy next to the Gimp. The Healthy is a bit droopy because she drank her pot dry!
I fed with my current mix, 770 ppm and pH 6.18 ... initial runoff was pH 5.58 and 1200 ppm. I watered generously until runoff was 900 and 5.85.

Here's the understory ... they're getting bushy.

And behold the glory that is my brilliant career as a cloner! Not A root in sight, and these tops are rapidly approaching deaditude.


The Gimp is not showing sex! The three others threw primordia after the first topping. This one isn't showing anything even 2 weeks after the 2nd topping.
It will soon be time to pot up. I'm kind of hoping the Gimp shows sex by then. So, my worthies ... what final pot size do you recommend? I'm thinking in the five-gallon range. I'll probably be trying to fill my 4x4 space with three trees. cn
cn

Hey cn, I noticed your clones died. You need more than that 26w for that many clones. You also need a humidity dome and need to mist the inside of the dome and the leaves every time it dries. You also need good air circulation for your clones with 24 hour light.

If you take my advice, you will have roots on your next clones within 4 days.

ummm...cn...where's the pics?

SirGreenThumb said:

Hey cn, I noticed your clones died. You need more than that 26w for that many clones. You also need a humidity dome and need to mist the inside of the dome and the leaves every time it dries. You also need good air circulation for your clones with 24 hour light.

If you take my advice, you will have roots on your next clones within 4 days.

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i realized I forgot to mention to cut small slits on each side of the stem where it enters your cubes. Also, make sure you keep cubes moist. I'm sure you already knew that though.

Kite High said:

ummm...cn...where's the pics?

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They were there. Honest.
The clones died with spongy rotten stems. I cut new ones from the lower portions of three plants: the two Healthies, H1 and H2, and Quasi, who has gone full Gimp on me but is more vigorous than the original Gimp.
So here are nine new clones: Healthies outboard and Quasi in the center column.
I did two things to up my game aside from cutting low on the plant and not the tops:
1) I got myself a strong cloning liquid - Dip'n'Grow.
2) i installed an aquarium heater in the cloner. Now water temp hangs between 77 and 78 degrees. The clones are doing well so far.

Here are the plants 3 days ago. cn

Friday was repotting day. I got two big seven-gallon pots and two appx. 4-galloners that are as tall but not as wide. I mixed a bag of perlite into a bunch of ProMix and went to work. It took gallons per pot to "water the plants in".

Here's a Healthy in its old pot and out of it, showing off root mass.


The other healthy, showing some algal growth in the pot's drain window.

Here are Quasi and the Gimp respectively. They don't look so bad from underneath. I have noticed that the brightly-lit bits look worse while the shaded leaves have greened. I'm fairly convinced that this point that their problem is congenital.

Here are the four in their new pots in a 3x3 e&f tray. The tray is resting on a stout box. Faced with the decision of raising the light or lowering the tray, I finally went forth and cut the lumber I'd bought a month ago to support the tray. I want to reserve raising the light for when i need to do so in the Stretch.

cn

I completed the tray frame yesterday, and it works perfectly!
The tray dropped right in with maybe 1/8" of slop.
So today I gave them their first watering after the repotting. They drank about thirty liters of veg nute (currently running 770 ppm at pH 6.2) and returned about three.


Here are the four yesterday evening.


And here they are tonight, one by one:
H2 (the smaller Healthy)

the Gimp (notice green leaves in understory. This one still has not shown sex.)

H1, my Big Healthy Girl

and Quasi, who has become rather gimpy of late but is transpiring almost as hard as the Healthies.

cn

Somebody one-starred this. Boo hiss. cn