Need 2nd opinions!

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lukedaduke

Member
OldMedUser said:
Now that there's more pics it does look like a bit of a Ca deficiency but certainly not bad enough to be the cause of smallish buds.

One sick leaf does not a sick plant make so diagnosis based on the first pic is open to interpretation.

:peace:
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This is what gave it away:

"Also it’s the top that is most affected the middle and bottom ain’t to bad+ the top leaves feel kinda rubbery is the only way I can really describe it"

Calcium is an immobile nutrient. The plant cant pull it from another area. You will always see a calcium starting at the top of a plant, it might show up lower down on the plant, but that just means you have had it for a while.

Calcium also plays a huge role in stem rigidity and strength. If you have floppy weak stems, calcium is the first thing I would take a look at. Skinny buds are also pointing towards calcium as I have found from personal experience that it plays a large role in bud set and expansion.

Spotting on the leaves can mean different things for sure, but its usually calcium, when growing in coco, so that's where I start. Pair that with the fact that different strains can have wildly different calcium requirements and you get a situation like this.

Its happened to me (more times than I would like to admit) and now im out here spreading the good word of calcium in cannabis lol
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Roger A. Shrubber said:
no, you just probably shouldn't mix your nutes and the cal mag together, which is why i suggested the foliar spray mix
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I always add my CalMag to the water first then add all the rest except for last night when I forgot and had to add it last.

I really doubt it makes a difference as I've always done it that way and have no signs of low Ca in any of the 6 strains flowering now.

Foliar spray late in flower? I wouldn't do it but then I don't ever do it.

:peace:
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Fupaslayer said:
What nutrient lineups do y’all use
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I was using AN 3-part with Big Bud and Rhino Skin from AN as well. Got some REMO CalMag this time.

A couple months ago I won some Green Leaf Mega Crop Nutes, Carbo, P/K and K alone in a contest put on by @AquaTerra for Canadian growers. Loving it! I'm growing in ProMix HP with some added organics and myco.

I'll save the AN for the next DWC grow but sticking with the Mega Crop for now. Plants have never looked better and the buds are stacking up like crazy for 35 days of 12/12. Need to be installing more bamboo stakes ASAP! :)

Group06081901.jpg

:peace:
 
Fupaslayer

Fupaslayer

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
I was using AN 3-part with Big Bud and Rhino Skin from AN as well. Got some REMO CalMag this time.

A couple months ago I won some Green Leaf Mega Crop Nutes, Carbo, P/K and K alone in a contest put on by @AquaTerra for Canadian growers. Loving it! I'm growing in ProMix HP with some added organics and myco.

I'll save the AN for the next DWC grow but sticking with the Mega Crop for now. Plants have never looked better and the buds are stacking up like crazy for 35 days of 12/12. Need to be installing more bamboo stakes ASAP! :)

View attachment 4375532

:peace:
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Awesome stuff Ima have to look into that brand
 
jondamon

jondamon

Well-Known Member
I use

DUTCH PRO HYDRO GROW A/B
DUTCH PRO HYDRO BLOOM A/B
MULTI TOTAL
TAKE ROOT
EXPLODE
CANNA MONO CA
CANNA MONO MG
EPSOM SALTS

obviously not all together and usually not over EC1.4 Max
 
L

lukedaduke

Member
Fupaslayer said:
Wow I’m guessing then my cal-mag bottles is no good? Because every time I mix my nutes for my dwc it always leaves a sandy substance at the bottom!
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Im willing to bet good money that your cal mag is made from calcium nitrate and magnesium nitrate.

If one of your nutrients lines contains potassium silicate and your mixing it into your feed solution that potassium silicate will react with the calcium nitrate to form calcium silicate. calcium silicate has a solubility of like 0.1 and will fall out of your solution as a precipitate, or what looks like sand. It sucks cause then you lose a lot of your calcium ions and all of your silica.

Additionally, if your using Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) and you mix that with calcium nitrate (again what probably constitutes part of your cal mag) you will form calcium sulfate, or gypsum. its the same stuff that makes up sheet rock. This will turn the solution white and then fall out as a precipitate. I dont think this is whats going on as this combo usually takes form as impure gypsum, which smells like rotten eggs, like bad haha. I think that gypsum is still viable as a calcium source for the plant but its not as good as calcium nitrate.

In my facility I just give the plants a foliar spray of silica once in veg and once in flower early on and I have been having good results and no precipitate. maybe something to think about.
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
lukedaduke said:
If one of your nutrients lines contains potassium silicate and your mixing it into your feed solution that potassium silicate will react with the calcium nitrate to form calcium silicate. calcium silicate has a solubility of like 0.1 and will fall out of your solution as a precipitate, or what looks like sand. It sucks cause then you lose a lot of your calcium ions and all of your silica.
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Citations?

That didn't seem plausible to me so I ran a little experiment to confirm or deny your assumption.

In a 20ml beaker with 15ml of RO water I put 10 drops each of potassium silicate, (Rhino Skin), and REMO CalMag made with calcium and magnesium nitrates. Adjusted pH to 6 and no sign of precipitates.

lukedaduke said:
Additionally, if your using Epsom salts (magnesium sulfate) and you mix that with calcium nitrate (again what probably constitutes part of your cal mag) you will form calcium sulfate, or gypsum. its the same stuff that makes up sheet rock. This will turn the solution white and then fall out as a precipitate. I dont think this is whats going on as this combo usually takes form as impure gypsum, which smells like rotten eggs, like bad haha. I think that gypsum is still viable as a calcium source for the plant but its not as good as calcium nitrate.
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No precipitates there either. I even added a bit of the Rhino to the Epsom/CalMag mix and nada.

As these things have been used successfully in horticulture and hydro-culture for ages I'm sure problems that you have put forth would have been common knowledge by now.

I searched pretty well and could find no references to either issue so I wonder where you might have come up with the ideas?

:peace:
 
Fupaslayer

Fupaslayer

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
Citations?

That didn't seem plausible to me so I ran a little experiment to confirm or deny your assumption.

In a 20ml beaker with 15ml of RO water I put 10 drops each of potassium silicate, (Rhino Skin), and REMO CalMag made with calcium and magnesium nitrates. Adjusted pH to 6 and no sign of precipitates.



No precipitates there either. I even added a bit of the Rhino to the Epsom/CalMag mix and nada.

As these things have been used successfully in horticulture and hydro-culture for ages I'm sure problems that you have put forth would have been common knowledge by now.

I searched pretty well and could find no references to either issue so I wonder where you might have come up with the ideas?

:peace:
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Ya I started to get worried when he first mentioned that assumption but then started thinking if it were true why are the rest of my crops doing good with the same mixtures and also I emailed the mega crop people and they are currently out of stock but they said they will get with me next week when they restock
 
Fupaslayer

Fupaslayer

Well-Known Member
Today I flushed all my coco girls with what I had and it is sad to say all of them were in the 3000-5000 range of ppm runoff. I’ve got all but one down to 1600-2200; I had used all my water so ima have to get more so I could flush some more tomorrow
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
Fupaslayer said:
Today I flushed all my coco girls with what I had and it is sad to say all of them were in the 3000-5000 range of ppm runoff. I’ve got all but one down to 1600-2200; I had used all my water so ima have to get more so I could flush some more tomorrow
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You can use any water at first to soak it and then flush. Right after the water flush then give it another load of good water with whatever nutes you figure they need at half strength. Reboot the system.

Pot doesn't use a lot of silica compared to grass and rice but it still likes a bit. I use small amounts from when the plants are small so they can use it to build stronger stems. On the Rhino Skin bottle it says to use 2ml/L starting week 1 thru 6 of flowering. Makes no sense to me to wait that long.

:peace:
 
N

nmibud

Well-Known Member
jondamon said:
Correct it does look a lot like leaf septoria which can be triggered through nutrient issues.


OP’s runoff ppm has tested at 4000ppm which when considering the input solution is 1400ppm is a stupidly high reading.

He needs to remedy this first.
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You have no idea what septoria is,find the true problem or keep chasing ghosts!
 
L

lukedaduke

Member
OldMedUser said:
Citations?

That didn't seem plausible to me so I ran a little experiment to confirm or deny your assumption.

In a 20ml beaker with 15ml of RO water I put 10 drops each of potassium silicate, (Rhino Skin), and REMO CalMag made with calcium and magnesium nitrates. Adjusted pH to 6 and no sign of precipitates.



No precipitates there either. I even added a bit of the Rhino to the Epsom/CalMag mix and nada.

As these things have been used successfully in horticulture and hydro-culture for ages I'm sure problems that you have put forth would have been common knowledge by now.

I searched pretty well and could find no references to either issue so I wonder where you might have come up with the ideas?

:peace:
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totally understand the need for citations.

I can look around for testimonials but here is the balanced chemical reaction for the potassium silicate/calcium nitrate mix:

K2O3Si + Ca(NO3)2 = 2KNO3 + CaSiO3

Potassium Silicate + Calcium Nitrate = Potassium Nitrate + Calcium Metasilicate (also called wollastonite)

Calcium metasilicate (aka calcium silicate) has a solubility in water of .01%, so 99.9% will not dissolve in water....(according to Wikipedia, so thats not a great source but I have seen that figure elsewhere, so maybe take that with a grain of salt)

Not going to lie, I have no idea what the concentrations of each base chemical are in the products you are using and I wont pretend to know the required concentrations of each in order for this reaction to be visible, but it does happen.

From my personal (and thus non provable) experience, it takes a few days in the feed solution to notice precipitate from this reaction. Like I said, I removed this potassium silicate from my feed solution and the precipitation stopped. Correlation does not equal causation of course, and I am no chemist so maybe something else is going on, but this is the best my dumb ass can up with haha.

But your right, I am having a hard time finding others talking about this reaction occurring online... perhaps I was mixing my silica in with my feed at a much higher rate than other products do? For reference I was using Agsil 16H as my silica source.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
As for the reaction between Epsom salts and calcium nitrates that should be readily visible at somewhat higher concentrations. I found out the hard way when I tried to make my own cal mag solution, as soon as I mixed the two high concentration solutions the ensuing mixture turned white and chalky with visible settling after a few minutes. I thought I was being soooo smart, but now I know why its always cal nit and mag nit instead of cal nit and Epsom.

Here is the balanced reaction

MgSO4 + Ca(NO3)2 = CaSO4 + Mg(NO3)2

Magnesium Sulfate + Calcium Nitrate = Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) + Magnesium Nitrate

I was able to find a forum for banana growers talking about this reaction:

http://www.bananas.org/f312/just-figured-out-not-add-calcium-22319.html


Does this make sense? I always end up second guessing my self. I think I balanced those equations right... at least chemical aid.com seems to think so lol. I could be wrong so if im spitting bullshit just let me know
 
OldMedUser

OldMedUser

Well-Known Member
lukedaduke said:
As for the reaction between Epsom salts and calcium nitrates that should be readily visible at somewhat higher concentrations.
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I let my stuff sit until this morning and still no precipitate so it would have to be at a very high concentration to react and form a precipitate. Nothing I would worry about for normal use. Mix all 3 parts of your 3-part nutrients together concentrated and there will be reactions too. That's why they come in 3 different bottles and you add each to the water separately.

At normal usage levels I can't see there being a problem and can't find anything specific to issues around it.

I do have a diploma in chemistry but it's been almost 30 years since I graduated so I'm more than a little rusty. :)

:peace:
 
Fupaslayer

Fupaslayer

Well-Known Member
OldMedUser said:
You can use any water at first to soak it and then flush. Right after the water flush then give it another load of good water with whatever nutes you figure they need at half strength. Reboot the system.

Pot doesn't use a lot of silica compared to grass and rice but it still likes a bit. I use small amounts from when the plants are small so they can use it to build stronger stems. On the Rhino Skin bottle it says to use 2ml/L starting week 1 thru 6 of flowering. Makes no sense to me to wait that long.

:peace:
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I’m kinda scared to use my tap water I don’t even cook with it, yet I barely wanna shower in it! It test at about 900-1000 ppm...
 
Fupaslayer

Fupaslayer

Well-Known Member
We have well water and whoever lived here first or whoever got the well installed probably did not go no where deep enough for clean water
 
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