National service bill (UK)

Rob Roy said:

You do need an internal passport to travel within the country

NOT TRUE

and one to get back to the "land of the free".

Also Not True, just getting back in if you lost your passport is a pain in the butt. you have to be identified, and verified, which takes time.

No, I'm bitching about something called "national service" and forced conscription and how it is Orwellian.

Civic responsibility is alien to you. how refreshingly Anarcho-Self-Serving.


You can't protect freedom by taking it away can you?

yeah, cuz you get freedom, who secures that freedom for you against those who would take it away? thats the other guy's problem.

As far as paying for what I use, how do you propose unbundling the "goods and services" from the "bads and disservices" that government provides? In other words, people end up paying for things like bombs and jails for victimless "criminals" even though they wish they weren't coerced into it. How would you change that?

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move to switzerland.

ohh wait they have COMPULSORY NATIONAL SERVICE TOO!

Dr Kynes said:

yes, i disagree with most every one of your utopian anarcho-imaginary assertions

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Your last line written in red really fails to properly address the question and sounds an awful lot like you don't have a real answer. I'm sorry you've run out of ideas and have resorted to ad hominem attacks.

So it's utopian to work towards a world where people can peacefully live their lives and not be forced to kill others? You sound a little fatalistic.

Dr Kynes said:

move to switzerland.

ohh wait they have COMPULSORY NATIONAL SERVICE TOO!

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Your vaunted constitution, doesn't it have a section prohibiting involuntary servitude? Compulsory service can be a fancy word for involuntary service. Did your ancestors own slaves?

Rob Roy said:

Your last line written in red really fails to properly address the question and sounds an awful lot like you don't have a real answer. I'm sorry you've run out of ideas and have resorted to ad hominem attacks.

So it's utopian to work towards a world where people can peacefully live their lives and not be forced to kill others? You sound a little fatalistic.

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no, it's utopian to dream of a world where everyone is free and does as they will, and nobody harms anyone else, because they are all happy little smurfs smurfing away, rather than smurfing off and smurfing Smurfette to death while Poppa Smurf smurfs off in the corner, and Hefty smurf smurfs the shit out of Handy, to smurf Handy's tools, because he smurfing wants them, and lazy smurf is smurfed to death with a brick by some Thrill-Smurfers just so they can watch him smurf.

you live in a fantasy world where no laws are needed because everybody is made of kittens and rainbows, and evenn if there are laws, they cannot be enforced because "That's Coercion!!!", and there are no cops anyhow, cuz taxes are theft, and "That's Coerciion!!"

your dream world is a paradise for assholes like Richard Alan Davis and Phil Garrido (google them).

too bad for everyone else your dream is a horror show.

and you cant even see it.

nobody cvan make you see it, cuz "That's Coercion!!"

Rob Roy said:

Your vaunted constitution, doesn't it have a section prohibiting involuntary servitude? Compulsory service can be a fancy word for involuntary service. Did your ancestors own slaves?

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even AC and echie make more sense than you do.

society is built upon mutual co-operation, that co-operation requires everyone to do a few things they may not particularly want to do, like pay taxes, or when needed, take up arms to defend the society

without these responsibilities, there is no society to protect you, swaddle you, and give you the safety security, and leisure time needed to craft insane theories about the joys of anarchy.

anarchist thought is a parasite, it needs society to even exist, but it's main goal is the death of it';s own host, even though that means the death of the parasite too.

in ACTUAL acarchy, nobody has time to dream up reasons why anarchy is so great, since they are trying so very hard to stay alive.

Dr Kynes said:

even AC and echie make more sense than you do.

society is built upon mutual co-operation, that co-operation requires everyone to do a few things they may not particularly want to do, like pay taxes, or when needed, take up arms to defend the society

without these responsibilities, there is no society to protect you, swaddle you, and give you the safety security, and leisure time needed to craft insane theories about the joys of anarchy.

anarchist thought is a parasite, it needs society to even exist, but it's main goal is the death of it';s own host, even though that means the death of the parasite too.

in ACTUAL acarchy, nobody has time to dream up reasons why anarchy is so great, since they are trying so very hard to stay alive.

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More rational thought and less red herring please.

It seems that you have a great misunderstanding of my position. I advocate mutual cooperation. You advocate imposing force. You contradict yourself when you say that cooperation "requires" a person to kill others. That isn't cooperation, it's a uni-lateral threat.

Oh Dr. Kynes, in your last foaming at the mouth rant, you seemed to miss my question about involuntary servitude. Do you find it acceptable to "make" people "serve"?
I thought you constitution thumpers were against that stuff.

Rob Roy said:

Freedom IS the subject, blindman. You think a few crumbs equals freedom?

People walk in and out of here and don't give their real names do they? Why is that? Is it because the USA is free ? I don't think so.

Comparing he USA's kind of totalitarian government to others and saying how much better it is, doesn't mean that the USA is free. Saying that this is the best that ever was doesn't mean it's free here either or that it is the best that can be.

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Where else? Where else is this freedom except, whole cloth in your mind, that we are suppose to let you define?

Where is it? You can't point to it. Why do you cry? Is it that it doesn't exist? Is it that you insist,, it can exist, if we all follow your ideas? These so called, self evident, ideas of yours have never worked, and cannot.

No there, there. No road map, no concrete articulation of how it can work in a tribe much less a civilization.

That is about as religious as it gets, no matter what you demure.

Doer said:

Where else? Where else is this freedom except, whole cloth in your mind, that we are suppose to let you define?

Where is it? You can't point to it. Why do you cry? Is it that it doesn't exist? Is it that you insist,, it can exist, if we all follow your ideas? These so called, self evident, ideas of yours have never worked, and cannot.

No there, there. No road map, no concrete articulation of how it can work in a tribe much less a civilization.

That is about as religious as it gets, no matter what you demure.

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Well at least you gave up defending your previous post and trying to assert that people willing pay the extortion for jails and bombs for babies.

The freedom I suppose doesn't yet exist in large part due to the existence of coercive governments. In order to have freedom, coercion must not be part of the equation. You keep trying to take a pile of shit and remove the stink by electing a new asshole now and then....YOU SHOW ME how that has ever worked.

The problem is systemic to the institution of coercive governments. Rearranging the furniture won't change anything. By the way, do you like to read...seriously?

You may suppose you think, I gave up anything. We willingly pay taxes You pay, not willingly. Or you can Snipes about it in Federal Prison. So what? Your rant, your fantasy. Circle the drain and you see no freedom or buy a helicopter. Your choice.

Doer said:

You may suppose you think, I gave up anything. We willingly pay taxes You pay, not willingly. Or you can Snipes about it in Federal Prison. So what? Your rant, your fantasy. Circle the drain and you see no freedom or buy a helicopter. Your choice.

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If you willingly pay taxes, do you also willingly pay to jail people for plants? Pay for death helicopters for innocent people?

You say it's my choice? YOU don't have a choice where your money goes and you ignore the bad shit all the while saying what a great place the USA is and that there will never be a better way. Sounds like your answer amounts to "that's just the way it is" and you just chew your cud and get on the conveyor belt bound for the butcher. Why do you give up so easy? I thought you were a tenacious arm wrestling guy?

Can't you think there is ever going to be another way possible rather than accepting a series of coercive governments?

Rob Roy said:

More rational thought and less red herring please.

It seems that you have a great misunderstanding of my position. I advocate mutual cooperation. You advocate imposing force. You contradict yourself when you say that cooperation "requires" a person to kill others. That isn't cooperation, it's a uni-lateral threat.

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Co-operation requires that there be compromise, your position is, "Im Takin My Ball And Goin Home".
you demand that ALL simply accept your decisions, and THEY compromise on their own.
thats what ya call an Autocracy

Rob Roy said:

Oh Dr. Kynes, in your last foaming at the mouth rant, you seemed to miss my question about involuntary servitude. Do you find it acceptable to "make" people "serve"?
I thought you constitution thumpers were against that stuff.

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yes. when necessary, society demands that some MUST serve, or the entire society suffers. the constitution provides a method for that service to be as fair and equitable as possible, while still preserving the society which helps us all live better lives than crouching in a cave with a sharpened stick, trying to keep the sabertooth tigers from eating our babies.

nobody WANTS to be a garbage man, or a plumber or the guy who mops the floors in a porno theatre, but them floors gotta be mopped, even if YOU dont wanna do it.

Compromise, Transactions, and Contracts allow society to keep rolling, and our prono theaters to remain somewhat less sticky, despite the obvious fact that some jobs just suck balls.

Dr Kynes said:

Co-operation requires that there be compromise, your position is, "Im Takin My Ball And Goin Home".
you demand that ALL simply accept your decisions, and THEY compromise on their own.
thats what ya call an Autocracy




yes. when necessary, society demands that some MUST serve, or the entire society suffers. the constitution provides a method for that service to be as fair and equitable as possible, while still preserving the society which helps us all live better lives than crouching in a cave with a sharpened stick, trying to keep the sabertooth tigers from eating our babies.

nobody WANTS to be a garbage man, or a plumber or the guy who mops the floors in a porno theatre, but them floors gotta be mopped, even if YOU dont wanna do it.

Compromise, Transactions, and Contracts allow society to keep rolling, and our prono theaters to remain somewhat less sticky, despite the obvious fact that some jobs just suck balls.

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No. My position is simple. I believe human interactions are best when they are on a consensual basis. All people have a right to live their life, but not to dictate, commit fraud or aggress against others. Your position is the one that thinks person(S) A can preemptively "MAKE" person B serve them.

You also contradict yourself, you site the constitution on one hand, which prohibits involuntary servitude, then you champion involuntary "service" as a duty.

Been sipping too much smurf juice ?

Dr Kynes said:

so, you are implying that you just didnt notice all the many modes or "service" suggested, but ONLY saw "Armed Forces" ?
or are you intimating that you did not intend to create the impression among those who would TLDR the bill, that this was all about compulsory military service?
or are you implying that i am in error and your post above actually contains a great deal of opposition to a "mandatory public service" law, and i just cannot see it because im not a super cool lefty like you?

nope.
you LOVE "mandatory public service" like all lefties do, Clinton tried to get one, TWICE , Obama tried to get one, but his started looking more like a paramilitary Young Pioneers program

[video=youtube;-aBgPtXJppg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-aBgPtXJppg[/video]

you despise mandatory military service cuz thats slavery, while mandatory "Public Service"? why thats VOLUNTEERISM...
many states have enacted "Mandadtory Volunteerism" as a criteria for a high school diploma, those states? LEFTY ONES like california.
forced servitude is NEVER voluntary, no matter how hard AC tried to make it so, but you only care if somebody joins the army instead of "Mandatorily Volunteering" at planned parenthood or Acorn

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Are those Obamas cheerleaders?

Rob Roy said:

No. My position is simple. I believe human interactions are best when they are on a consensual basis. All people have a right to live their life, but not to dictate, commit fraud or aggress against others. Your position is the one that thinks person(S) A can preemptively "MAKE" person B serve them.

You also contradict yourself, you site the constitution on one hand, which prohibits involuntary servitude, then you champion involuntary "service" as a duty.

Been sipping too much smurf juice ?

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in a perfect world, there would never be a draft, but sometimes shit doesnt go as planned which is why the provisions REQUIRING militia service from ALL (between the ages of 16 and 60) were included in the constitution and the laws of the continental congress, these laws REQUIRING service, as a part of our civic responsibility are not designed to create slaves (chattel or other wise), but as a measure to preserve the society when shit hits the fan.

whinge about it all you like, it is not new, it is not exclusive to our constitution, and it has been part of the social structure since man first formed wandering bands of hunter/gatherers

wolves who decide "Imma sit back here, lick my balls and not hunt" do not eat. those who cannot hunt (pups, whelping mothers etc) are provided for by those who can. that is why they are SOCIAL. is the tribe requires some service from you, either through taxation, or even taking up arms to defend against raiders you have an OBLIGATION to the tribe, as well as those who have taken up arms to defend it in the past, and those who will take up arms when you are too old to keep your shield up.

it is not a contradiction. it is part of ALL social creature's social structures.

cept anarchists. they got a case of the Gimmees.

Voluntary service is the best thing, but when they call up the levies, then those levies are NEEDED (yeah yeah yeah vietnam, korea blah blah blah, that was bullshit and everybody knows it.)

Dr Kynes said:

Obama tried to get one, but his started looking more like a paramilitary Young Pioneers program

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Why do you sugarcoat it? This is what you really meant.

[video=youtube;PYFIbcSPgIg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYFIbcSPgIg[/video]

Rob Roy said:

If you willingly pay taxes, do you also willingly pay to jail people for plants? Pay for death helicopters for innocent people?

You say it's my choice? YOU don't have a choice where your money goes and you ignore the bad shit all the while saying what a great place the USA is and that there will never be a better way. Sounds like your answer amounts to "that's just the way it is" and you just chew your cud and get on the conveyor belt bound for the butcher. Why do you give up so easy? I thought you were a tenacious arm wrestling guy?

Can't you think there is ever going to be another way possible rather than accepting a series of coercive governments?

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I willingly pay my taxes. I willingly vote my choices. And I don't spend a nickel of my valuable time thinking about a future fantasy. It is the way it is now.

Now in my short life. You will not live to see this other why that only you surmise. You will never see it. It may exiist like Star Trek in some future timeline.

It is you that is giving up the total peace and freedom of right Now, for a worry, fever dream. And I like you just fine, but, I have not see anyone agree to a bare sketch of an idea how to GET there.

And you propose nothing. But, you say I give up? I'm firmly planted without remorse.

You grovel and moan that the future may be fucked up, too. It will be. But we will never know. NOW slips by you., unseen, I suppose.

No skin off me. It doesn't matter if a few don't accept the present govt. When the majority does not it changes but we will be dead already.

And if some dirt grown Honduran can get into the USA with no English after been tossed South again and again by Mexico Border Police surely you can get the hell out of here. At least you had an education to learn how to moan.

Doer said:

I willingly pay my taxes. I willingly vote my choices. And I don't spend a nickel of my valuable time thinking about a future fantasy. It is the way it is now.

Now in my short life. You will not live to see this other why that only you surmise. You will never see it. It may exiist like Star Trek in some future timeline.

It is you that is giving up the total peace and freedom of right Now, for a worry, fever dream. And I like you just fine, but, I have not see anyone agree to a bare sketch of an idea how to GET there.

And you propose nothing. But, you say I give up? I'm firmly planted without remorse.

You grovel and moan that the future may be fucked up, too. It will be. But we will never know. NOW slips by you., unseen, I suppose.

No skin off me. It doesn't matter if a few don't accept the present govt. When the majority does not it changes but we will be dead already.

And if some dirt grown Honduran can get into the USA with no English after been tossed South again and again by Mexico Border Police surely you can get the hell out of here. At least you had an education to learn how to moan.

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Not meaning to fuck with you, but I can tell you don't spend alot of time thinking about living a life of contradiction. If you abhor war on innocent people and the war on a plant why would you want to enable them? You say you willingly pay up...do you willingly pay for the violence inherent in the present system? If you can't change that or say no to it...are you really free? I'd say not.

No, I don't "propose nothing". A few posts back I asked a serious question... if you like to read. There are books that I'd suggest can do a good job of explaining alternatives.

I don't grovel, nor do I accept what is as the best that mankind can be.

I smoked some Honduran once a long time ago, it was dirt grown, however it didn't make me moan.

Joining up to fight with (for) American oil interests in an under equipped military? Where do I sign! Wait I don't have to

Rob Roy said:

Not meaning to fuck with you, but I can tell you don't spend alot of time thinking about living a life of contradiction. If you abhor war on innocent people and the war on a plant why would you want to enable them? You say you willingly pay up...do you willingly pay for the violence inherent in the present system? If you can't change that or say no to it...are you really free? I'd say not.

No, I don't "propose nothing". A few posts back I asked a serious question... if you like to read. There are books that I'd suggest can do a good job of explaining alternatives.

I don't grovel, nor do I accept what is as the best that mankind can be.

I smoked some Honduran once a long time ago, it was dirt grown, however it didn't make me moan.

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Dude, you are not fucking with me that I can feel....just no arm wrestling, OK?

Look let's go thru it.

1) false. Yin and Yang will never be reconciled. For Eastern based philosophies of Martial Necessities, these are very common conundrums. There is never such a thing as no contradiction. That is a big clue for your, no perfection, angst.

2) Yes, most willing of all, I pay for the violence. It is the way we stay as our own shot callers.

3) No way, you cannot say what is the diffintion for feedom is for me. That is the essence of the 9th A.

And you certainly cannot propose that somehow a lack of violence is associated with freedom. Any move to stop me from protecting mine with violence, is a move away from freedom.

Only violence can create the tinniness we call freedom. And only constant violence can maintain freedom, if dullards and warlords constantly try to take it.

And I have answered every serious question you have posted, across Interstate Commerce even. I covered why a State cannot withdraw from the Union but can make a 2 new States.

All this goes by and you rudely ask the same questions in other ways, over and over. So, ignore it all and me as well.