NASA predicts irreversible collapse of civilization

canndo

Well-Known Member
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists

Now, here is what I find interesting:

A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution.
Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that "the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history." Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to "precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common."
The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharrei of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics.
It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation:
"The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent."
By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, andEnergy.
These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: "the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity"; and "the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or "Commoners") [poor]" These social phenomena have played "a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse," in all such cases over "the last five thousand years."
Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with "Elites" based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both:
"... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels."









 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
"Civilizations" that have coercive government as an underpinning and an institutional norm do not have far to fall when they "collapse".
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
The study finds that a convergence of a shortage of resources and the control of these resources by an elite will cause an imbalance that disrupts civilization. Not only will the elite fail to recognize the imbalance but they and their supporters will hamper any efforts to rectify the situation. The study indicates that the only way to forestall the collapse is to ensure that resources are distributed more evenly. In short, a redistribution of wealth is the only way to keep our current civilization intact.

There is no silver bullet, no scientific cavalry riding to the rescue in the nick of time. When I explored where this story went and how it was received, I found that some sites went so far as to call for the abolition of NASA, others claimed they had abandoned science, still others claimed that the study called for communism as the only approach to resolution. But inherent in the study was a prediction that people who were not of the elite would defend them, even to the point of their own and previous demise.

This is the role of conservatives, to call for continuing ignorance, to perpetuate the status quo even as they themselves experience the effects of that status quo. I saw that few of those who claimed that the study can't be correct because it runs contrary to their core belief even read the entire article, let alone explored the study itself. Others were unwilling to even entertain the notion of correction by redistribution. I will wager the same behavior will be exhibited here.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
"Civilizations" that have coercive government as an underpinning and an institutional norm do not have far to fall when they "collapse".
yet civilizations without that coercive government will fall as well. Again, short sighted reasoning. Will you really be in a better place should this civilization, including all of it's coercive governments fail? Or will you be content in the midst of turmoil and misery in the presumption that you were right?
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
yet civilizations without that coercive government will fall as well. Again, short sighted reasoning. Will you really be in a better place should this civilization, including all of it's coercive governments fail? Or will you be content in the midst of turmoil and misery in the presumption that you were right?

Turmoil and misery? Nah, I got a little hobbit hole with plenty of tea and biscuits and rolling papers. Coercive governments aren't "going to" fail. They already are a failure and always will be for anybody that embraces peace. Coercive governments and civilization are not the same thing. A good argument could be made they are opposites.

The problem with redistribution is it rewards and attempts to justify coercion under the guise of "helping people". It's a lie comrade.
 

bird mcbride

Well-Known Member
About 30 years ago when cars and stuff were still being buried into landfills I warned people that if we continue to just dump all these raw resources we will run out. A lot of people had the ignorance to argue with this line of thought choosing to believe that God created the Earth and it will be here for our use and convenience forever because this is what their religions chose to believe...that the Earth and it's resources are infinite and will be here forever. Some of these thumpers still can't get it that in a few billion years the star we know as Sol will no longer be able to support life as we know it. Now in recognition of the finite resources of Earth are not infinite Canada makes every effort possible to recycle all materials. Land fills are now illegal. In about 2015 a really cool device will show up that will solve a lot of the worlds energy supplies and will help have not countries prosper agriculturally. However this will not solve the problem with the need and usage of the internal combustion engine. Adding alcohol etc to petroleum is a measure we have taken to extend our fossil fuel supplies but will not solve the problem. Our only real hope of truly prolonging the Earth and our technology and present day civilization is to master space travel and continuing studies in scientific advancment.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Nothing new here but a recap is always nice!
That is the point, there is nothing new, we have seen this sort of collapse for the last 5 thousand years. I just don't like living on the cusp of the end. I have always wondered, when I was seeing the remains of ancient, advanced civilizations, just what it must have been like to be living in the last days of one of those civilizations. Did the people know where they were in time? Is even knowing about this sort of impending disaster any consolation? I imagined folks living in the shadow of the collesium, wondering what the hell it was for or thinking that the time of their great grandfather must have been a glorious one.
 

Rob Roy

Well-Known Member
About 30 years ago when cars and stuff were still being buried into landfills I warned people that if we continue to just dump all these raw resources we will run out. A lot of people had the ignorance to argue with this line of thought choosing to believe that God created the Earth and it will be here for our use and convenience forever because this is what their religions chose to believe...that the Earth and it's resources are infinite and will be here forever. Some of these thumpers still can't get it that in a few billion years the star we know as Sol will no longer be able to support life as we know it. Now in recognition of the finite resources of Earth are not infinite Canada makes every effort possible to recycle all materials. Land fills are now illegal. In about 2015 a really cool device will show up that will solve a lot of the worlds energy supplies and will help have not countries prosper agriculturally. However this will not solve the problem with the need and usage of the internal combustion engine. Adding alcohol etc to petroleum is a measure we have taken to extend our fossil fuel supplies but will not solve the problem. Our only real hope of truly prolonging the Earth and our technology and present day civilization is to master space travel and continuing studies in scientific advancment.

Do you have a brother named Bake Mcbride? Cuz I think I played baseball with him a long time ago. Shake and Bake.
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
Turmoil and misery? Nah, I got a little hobbit hole with plenty of tea and biscuits and rolling papers. Coercive governments aren't "going to" fail. They already are a failure and always will be for anybody that embraces peace. Coercive governments and civilization are not the same thing. A good argument could be made they are opposites.

The problem with redistribution is it rewards and attempts to justify coercion under the guise of "helping people". It's a lie comrade.
Rob? Do you HAVE another perspective? another talking point? another discussion? another ideology save the same lament that you are being deprived of absolute freedom and it is government that is the only object that is keeping you from your dream? Are you really one of those who might rejoice in the collapse, in the days or weeks before you too go down with the global ship?
 

canndo

Well-Known Member
It is fascinating how so many actually believe that they are not a part of the picture here. They all think that this will be no big deal. Rob thinks that everything will be fine because he lives in a tree somewhere. Everyone figures that they will just have to do a little less driving or light candles.
 

SirGreenThumb

Well-Known Member
So in other words the government gets to big, people become too greedy and hungry for power and before you know it, BOOM Zombie apocalypse. Kinda sorta. :mrgreen:

I also cannot imagine how it would have been like to go through a collapse way before the information age without knowing wtf is happening, but it would seem like they would know what was happening, I would say that the people of the past were not stupid, we evolved from them, so I would think they would know it was coming though word of mouth, carrier pigeon a mother flippen fox... Yea... What are we talking about again?
 

schuylaar

Well-Known Member
So in other words the government gets to big, people become too greedy and hungry for power and before you know it, BOOM Zombie apocalypse. Kinda sorta. :mrgreen:

I also cannot imagine how it would have been like to go through a collapse way before the information age without knowing wtf is happening, but it would seem like they would know what was happening, I would say that the people of the past were not stupid, we evolved from them, so I would think they would know it was coming though word of mouth, carrier pigeon a mother flippen fox... Yea... What are we talking about again?
....................:lol:

+rep
 

GOD HERE

Well-Known Member
Turmoil and misery? Nah, I got a little hobbit hole with plenty of tea and biscuits and rolling papers. Coercive governments aren't "going to" fail. They already are a failure and always will be for anybody that embraces peace. Coercive governments and civilization are not the same thing. A good argument could be made they are opposites.

The problem with redistribution is it rewards and attempts to justify coercion under the guise of "helping people". It's a lie comrade.
Defending societies elite? Really? Did they offer you a voluntary contract?

Do you have a brother named Bake Mcbride? Cuz I think I played baseball with him a long time ago. Shake and Bake.
Whatever happened to Danny McBride on here? Haven't seen him in a while.
 

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/mar/14/nasa-civilisation-irreversible-collapse-study-scientists

Now, here is what I find interesting:

A new study sponsored by Nasa's Goddard Space Flight Center has highlighted the prospect that global industrial civilisation could collapse in coming decades due to unsustainable resource exploitation and increasingly unequal wealth distribution.
Noting that warnings of 'collapse' are often seen to be fringe or controversial, the study attempts to make sense of compelling historical data showing that "the process of rise-and-collapse is actually a recurrent cycle found throughout history." Cases of severe civilisational disruption due to "precipitous collapse - often lasting centuries - have been quite common."
The research project is based on a new cross-disciplinary 'Human And Nature DYnamical' (HANDY) model, led by applied mathematician Safa Motesharrei of the US National Science Foundation-supported National Socio-Environmental Synthesis Center, in association with a team of natural and social scientists. The study based on the HANDY model has been accepted for publication in the peer-reviewed Elsevier journal, Ecological Economics.
It finds that according to the historical record even advanced, complex civilisations are susceptible to collapse, raising questions about the sustainability of modern civilisation:
"The fall of the Roman Empire, and the equally (if not more) advanced Han, Mauryan, and Gupta Empires, as well as so many advanced Mesopotamian Empires, are all testimony to the fact that advanced, sophisticated, complex, and creative civilizations can be both fragile and impermanent."
By investigating the human-nature dynamics of these past cases of collapse, the project identifies the most salient interrelated factors which explain civilisational decline, and which may help determine the risk of collapse today: namely, Population, Climate, Water, Agriculture, andEnergy.
These factors can lead to collapse when they converge to generate two crucial social features: "the stretching of resources due to the strain placed on the ecological carrying capacity"; and "the economic stratification of society into Elites [rich] and Masses (or "Commoners") [poor]" These social phenomena have played "a central role in the character or in the process of the collapse," in all such cases over "the last five thousand years."
Currently, high levels of economic stratification are linked directly to overconsumption of resources, with "Elites" based largely in industrialised countries responsible for both:
"... accumulated surplus is not evenly distributed throughout society, but rather has been controlled by an elite. The mass of the population, while producing the wealth, is only allocated a small portion of it by elites, usually at or just above subsistence levels."









If its cyclical, how is it irreversible?
 
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