MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods

Treeth · Dec 5, 2009

Its just too bad that I had to make the initial investment that drove this innovation to a breaking point!
No problem guys its what I do. Rep please!
We just scaled this project way higher. What do you guys say we move this to a private forum, Say google wave,
for posting our further testing.

This information, and perspective on process is special and will be big in the future.
Association, Gentlemen,
International Incorporated Associationism.
But we can call it a Firm. And if you two don't know already,
My first project was directed at led efficacy... And lets say I have developed a position just as special in the lighting department..
So I've got the life system down, with the exclusion of effective and cheap environmental management.

- What do you guys say, I want to get started.

Atomizer · Dec 5, 2009

Hi Treeth
I wish i`d come across them a bit earlier, it sucks when you find something cheaper "after" shelling out.
Its a small consolation but hang onto the thought that before anyone can follow..someone has to lead

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Treeth again.

tree farmer · Dec 5, 2009

Atomizer said:
I think 9.5LPH may be too much but you can always reduce it. Looking at the numbers 9.5LPH works out to 228L/day in a 22.5ft3 chamber or 10L/ft3/day.
I think TF may be running something around 1L/ft3/day. Working on the assumption he has four 4.48ft3 chambers and 16x 8.51LPH nozzles running on a 2 sec/6 mins cycle. The total nutes delivered would be 18L/day (4.77gal) into 18ft3 of chambers.

I must be having a senior moment, its unlikely you`ll be running a nozzle constantly
This is a bit more like it.. 2x 9.5L/hr nozzles in a 22.5ft3 chamber with timing cycles of:
1 sec/60 sec = 7.475L/day or 0.33L/ft3/day
1 sec/120 sec = 3.768L/day or 0.167L/ft3/day
1sec /180 sec = 2.519L/day or 0.111L/ft3/day

that is pretty well dead on. im at 2 sec every 6 minutes. and i figured they were seeing around 5 gal a day. they lap up 2-3 of that aday. im doing 2 sec every 10 min lights out as iv noticed they only drink half as much water at night. iv noticed even at 10 min off the root mass still stays moist at night.

well i couldnt get the same pump i have and the replacement model will take 3 weeks so i ordered this model http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8030-813-239.html im going to set it up as a backup with a battery and a charger to take over if the system pressure falls below 75psi. this will help also if the power goes out as it will still be able to run off the battery and ill try and keep a couple charged and ready in case it stays out very long.(which i doubt will happen as ive only seen the power go off for an hour or two in 20 years)

travish413 · Dec 5, 2009

Hey TF... I hope you dont mind but I am going to copy your 4 pod design.... I have been debating on what kind of grow chamber to go with and I found some utility sinks that would work perfect for the grow area I have. I have a DR150 which is 5x5 so 4 utility sinks would be spot on. I am going to put 4 small holes per sink and one larger hole in the center so I can switch it up and grow a scrog or grow 4 shrubs. Just so I can see what I like better and what works best for my setup. I just wanted to give you a heads up bc i was going to post pics when I was finished. I know how some ppl are with their designs and findings so if you have a problem with this I will think of something else. I just think those sinks are a great idea!

tree farmer · Dec 5, 2009

travis
you are welcome to use any info you can. if using sinks even though they drain i would incorperate a 1 inch lift on the side oppisite the drain to speed up the drainage process. as ive found that by lifting my oppisite side they drain much better or you could lift the roots off the chamber floor with a silk screen.

Atomizer · Dec 6, 2009

Hi TF
The new pump looks good, coupled with a 12v solenoid it`ll cover any power outages. Your old pump should last forever, especially with the longer 2sec/6 min cycle timing.
By my reckoning, with 75-90psi drawdown (2.71L for a 5 gal accumulator) and a perfect 2 second pulse (no ramping, run on or other losses), the pump will kick in once every 3 hours and 36 minutes. The solenoid is likely to fail long before the pump..its running over 240 cycles a day

travish413 · Dec 6, 2009

tree farmer said:
travis
you are welcome to use any info you can. if using sinks even though they drain i would incorperate a 1 inch lift on the side oppisite the drain to speed up the drainage process. as ive found that by lifting my oppisite side they drain much better or you could lift the roots off the chamber floor with a silk screen.

Cool! Thanx for the tip!

tree farmer · Dec 6, 2009

Atomizer
you know i never even thought about the solenoid until you said that. i was just thinking the battery would work for the pump because ive did it before. but on that app i was cycling the pump with the timer(no accumulator tank) Stg does carry the same valve with the 12 volt so im going to have to pick one up so i have everything covered. it sucks when somethingt goes and you dont have the replacement ready to go. a mad sramble. not good.when my plastic solenoid quite working a while back i ended up just plugging the pump into my cloner timer and cycling the pump for about 12 hrs until someplace opened to get the brass one i was using for awhile.
i never did notice any ill effects from using the brass one for about a week.

the pump will come on less than you figured during the night because its only 2 sec 10 min for 12h.

winter is here. the res is hovering around 64-65 deg. time to put that cooler lid back on i think.

akaru · Dec 6, 2009

I've been running a medium pressure system using some evaporative cooling misters, but have been looking into fuel injector nozzles for months. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Now I have another system to build

Atomizer · Dec 7, 2009

Hi TF,
Its still pretty warm for december here, a toasty 10C or 50F. I guess your timer will run on 12v, although it easy enough to switch another one into line with a relay. g-love switched everything off for two 1 hour periods during the night using a 24hr timer which could be another option. It cured the wilting issue he had due to excess watering at night.
As for the different day/night timing cycles.. 12 hours at 2s/10min delivers ~5.4L. The 12 hours daytime 2s/6min is ~9L so around ~14.4L altogether. The solenoid cycles 121 times during the day and 73 at night, total 194. The pump will run 3 times in the day and twice at night. Probably cheaper to run than lp aero

fatman7574 · Dec 7, 2009

Medium pressure aero with a Iwaki MD-30RZT means 95 watts per hour 24 hours per day. At the presnt kWh rate here of 0.28 per kWh that means $0.59 cents per day per each 60 SOG plants. I have no idea what you guys are using wattage wise for pumps with you HP systems. I am switching away from medium pressure for mainly for shorter internodes rather than for energy savings. I would pay even higher energy costs for the shorter internodes. I want fat bonzai buds. A single fat cola per plant would be just fine. Shorter, fatter, quicker and efficient drain to waste is my goal.

Atomizer · Dec 7, 2009

Here`s another example using a worst case timing cycle of 1sec/60sec.
The solenoid will run a full 24 minutes/day, 5.5w/day.
Pump running cost for 24 nozzles, 10 gal accumulator and a 17gal/day (64L) throughput equates to about 390w/day. Total 396w/day or perhaps $0.11 at your electricity prices

tree farmer · Dec 7, 2009

Atomizer said:
Hi TF,
Its still pretty warm for december here, a toasty 10C or 50F. I guess your timer will run on 12v, although it easy enough to switch another one into line with a relay. g-love switched everything off for two 1 hour periods during the night using a 24hr timer which could be another option. It cured the wilting issue he had due to excess watering at night.
As for the different day/night timing cycles.. 12 hours at 2s/10min delivers ~5.4L. The 12 hours daytime 2s/6min is ~9L so around ~14.4L altogether. The solenoid cycles 121 times during the day and 73 at night, total 194. The pump will run 3 times in the day and twice at night. Probably cheaper to run than lp aero

try 16 deg this morning.i bought a stainless steel res heater and installed it. it only took around 8 minutes to warm from 63 where it was to 67 the lowest possible setting on the heater. i was impressed. im only running 15 gal res now and changing out every 5 days.

Well curiousity got the best of me and still seeing really damp roots when lights out and not completly dry when lights on i tryed for the first time 2 sec 10 minutes during lights on. well it was a restless night to say the least. but to my relief when i got over to see them the next day right before lights out they were still looking good. checked the root zone and things were finally dry on the chamber floor and the fuzz was puffy. im going to try one more lights on cycle with that setting and then evaluate what the root zone looks like before decieding to go back to the previous 2sec 6min or leave it. i know this is at the edge but i need to know so i can make better assesments in the future. I know it will be hard for peeps to believe that they show no signs of moisture stress at those levels but im just trying to figure out what works best for my app. and think outside of the box. as this whole system has surprised my thinking at every turn.

Atomizer · Dec 7, 2009

If you have the option on the timer i would try a 1 sec/5min cycle to drop the water volume but increase frequency and see how that goes. Its better to reduce the misting pulse if you can than increase the pause.
2sec/10mins (19ml) a delivers fair amount per hit when you compare it to 1sec/5min (9.5ml) or 0.5sec/2.5min (4.7ml) cycles even though they all deliver the same amount of water per day.

fatman7574 · Dec 7, 2009

Atomizer said:
Here`s another example using a worst case timing cycle of 1sec/60sec.
The solenoid will run a full 24 minutes/day, 5.5w/day.
Pump running cost for 24 nozzles, 10 gal accumulator and a 17gal/day (64L) throughput equates to about 390w/day. Total 396w/day or perhaps $0.11 at your electricity prices

Nice! Better performance, less operating cost, likely higher maintenance costs however. If paying retail the set up prices are probably about 50% higher for the HP system, but that would be more than made up for in increased value of the better yield from just one grow. Look like soleni oid maintenance/replacements is the main issue with the HP. I haven't had to replav ce a soenoid on the medium pressure units yet. They are all, plastomatics and Haywards though. It is easy to just repair them. I would not pay the retail prices for them though. Mine are all 1" on the Medium pressure systems and they sell for over $300 each retail. Mine are all Ebay purchased at a typical price of $50 to $75 each.

fatman7574 · Dec 7, 2009

tree farmer said:
try 16 deg this morning.i bought a stainless steel res heater and installed it. it only took around 8 minutes to warm from 63 where it was to 67 the lowest possible setting on the heater. i was impressed. im only running 15 gal res now and changing out every 5 days.

Well curiousity got the best of me and still seeing really damp roots when lights out and not completly dry when lights on i tryed for the first time 2 sec 10 minutes during lights on. well it was a restless night to say the least. but to my relief when i got over to see them the next day right before lights out they were still looking good. checked the root zone and things were finally dry on the chamber floor and the fuzz was puffy. im going to try one more lights on cycle with that setting and then evaluate what the root zone looks like before decieding to go back to the previous 2sec 6min or leave it. i know this is at the edge but i need to know so i can make better assesments in the future. I know it will be hard for peeps to believe that they show no signs of moisture stress at those levels but im just trying to figure out what works best for my app. and think outside of the box. as this whole system has surprised my thinking at every turn.

Your running just ambient room air. No heating, aircondition, dehumidifier or CO2? Average lighting intensity? I think I will not be able to get away with that long between cycles unless I change things up a lot. With medium aeros I am using 78 watts per square foot of water cooled lights on average. The grow rooms are all pretty air tight and are all air conditioned with settings of 86 degrees F. CO2 at 1600 ppm. The dehumifier is set at 40% relative humidity. Most of my reservoirs are in heated living spaces so run about 70 to 74 degrees F. The few chilled resrvoirs used in larger grows are just chilled to 76 to 78 degrees. The plants transpire a lot at 40% humidity. Between the air conditioner and dehumidifier I am getting about 44 pints per day (5.5 gallons). That is with 60 plant scrogs for about the entire 6 weeks of budding. Considering water some must be going into plant mass say one half a pint. (I can't say how much for sure as it is all automated with controllers and pumps) Still that is at least 5.5 gallons a day between 60 short plants. I am definitely spraying more than that though. But still that means at least that much is taken up by the plants per day. That also is for the attached cutting and early veg growth but that is low lighting so the tranpiration rate is quite low. I am assuming my transpiration might be even higher with the aeromisters. Oh what fun this will be. I can't even imagine how the aero misters better droplet sizes will change the EC needs.

travish413 · Dec 7, 2009

Just got my aquatec 6800 that atomizer suggested to me. Going to have to wait til this weekend to get all the plumbing done though... I just started my mothers so I still got a while before everything has to be set up, but sooner than later :weed:

Just want to say thank yall again for all the great info :clap:

Will probably be askin some more questions this weekend as I run into them.

tree farmer · Dec 7, 2009

Atomizer said:
If you have the option on the timer i would try a 1 sec/5min cycle to drop the water volume but increase frequency and see how that goes. Its better to reduce the misting pulse if you can than increase the pause.
2sec/10mins (19ml) a delivers fair amount per hit when you compare it to 1sec/5min (9.5ml) or 0.5sec/2.5min (4.7ml) cycles even though they all deliver the same amount of water per day.

yea i agree but i have tried 1 sec and because of the tubing from the manifold to the pods there isnt enough time to get mist to the pods. what im going to do to get around that is im going to install the .04 oz per sec nozzels so that i will get half the flow but still get the mist. it will take a week or two to get them but it seems like it will solve alot of the limitations i have with the system. i will be able then to mist more and not overwater because ill only be delivering half as much flow. for now i want to try and limit the wet feet as much as possible without drying out things to much.

my next task is to get an above ground main res to draw off. it seems like every time i change out the below ground one i have to mess with the pump to get it to prime up the first time. also now that im not misting much the pump doesnt come on for a long time and i have noticed the pump has to reprime each cycle. the flooded intake to the pump from an above ground res will solve all that. also if only delivering 5-6 gal a day i can get by with a 25 gal sink setting on its legs for an above ground res. i picked up an extra pump for the cloner which i think will work to pump out the below ground res when ever it fills, which wont be very often with 3 gallon aday (holds 35 gal)or so runoff. i might just pump to waste now instead of pumping back to res since ive been changing out every 5 days anyway. all in all i think it will work alot better with out to much modifcation. im not sure the eco633 has the head at 8 ft to pump up but if not ill get one of thier larger ones to pump it up or ill just use the shop vac i have as it is what i use now to change out. it will be nice once i finally get everything right.

my new 12v pump will be here thursday so ill want to get that all set up also. i wonder now if ill even get to the atomix project this winter anymore. i might have to watch as treeth and fatman beat me to it.

tree farmer · Dec 7, 2009

fatman7574 said:
Your running just ambient room air. No heating, aircondition, dehumidifier or CO2? Average lighting intensity? I think I wil not be able to get awys with that long between cycles unless I cahnge things a lot. With medium aero I am using 78 watts per square foot of water cooled lights on average. The rooms are all air conditioned with settings of 86 degrees. The dehumifier is set at 40% relative humidity. The reservoirs are currently kept at 76 to 78 degrees. The plants transpire a lot at 40% humidity. Between the air conditioner and dehumidifier I am getting about 36 pints per day (4.5 gallons). Considering some must be going into plant mass say four additianal pints. (I can't say how much for sure as it is all automated with controllers and pumps) That means five gallons a day. I am definitely spraying more than that. But still that means at least that much is taken up by the plants per day. That is with 60 plant scrogs for about the entire 6 weeks of budding. That also is for the attached cutting and early veg growth but that is low lighting so the tranpiration rate is quite low.

no ac, no dehumid, no co2. 50 wpsf. i would like to run co2 and ac and dehumid but at this time its not possible. humid stays around 35% lighton ,55% lights off. temp 75 lighton 67lightsoff. i dont think id feel comfortable at those res temps. of coarse you have much more control over enviro factors than i do so those higher temps will benifit you. i really think once i get the misting cycles down and add co2 i could really see a benifit from higher res temps.

fatman7574 · Dec 7, 2009

tree farmer said:
yea i agree but i have tried 1 sec and because of the tubing from the manifold to the pods there isnt enough time to get mist to the pods. what im going to do to get around that is im going to install the .04 oz per sec nozzels so that i will get half the flow but still get the mist. it will take a week or two to get them but it seems like it will solve alot of the limitations i have with the system. i will be able then to mist more and not overwater because ill only be delivering half as much flow. for now i want to try and limit the wet feet as much as possible without drying out things to much.

my next task is to get an above ground main res to draw off. it seems like every time i change out the below ground one i have to mess with the pump to get it to prime up the first time. also now that im not misting much the pump doesnt come on for a long time and i have noticed the pump has to reprime each cycle. the flooded intake to the pump from an above ground res will solve all that. also if only delivering 5-6 gal a day i can get by with a 25 gal sink setting on its legs for an above ground res. i picked up an extra pump for the cloner which i think will work to pump out the below ground res when ever it fills, which wont be very often with 3 gallon aday (holds 35 gal)or so runoff. i might just pump to waste now instead of pumping back to res since ive been changing out every 5 days anyway. all in all i think it will work alot better with out to much modifcation. im not sure the eco633 has the head at 8 ft to pump up but if not ill get one of thier larger ones to pump it up or ill just use the shop vac i have as it is what i use now to change out. it will be nice once i finally get everything right.

my new 12v pump will be here thursday so ill want to get that all set up also. i wonder now if ill even get to the atomix project this winter anymore. i might have to watch as treeth and fatman beat me to it.

That just means we get all the fun of trying out the different nozzle sizes first. I sure hope the #28 works out well as I would like to just use two nozzles per chamber. Treeth will likely have half grown plants before I even get started. Some times I hate being a professor. Doesn't allow much free time for 30 weeks of the year to do much. I do get a lot of time off with pay though between semesters and during the summer.

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