Metal halide (mh) for the stash high pressure sodium (hps) for the cash

zues

Active Member
I have done lots an lots of research an ive studied an ran my own test there is this big arguement about flowering wit mh or hps im going to lay it flat rite now an u can pick ur side its all basically ur pref.

Ok mh has been used by the old head for like a trillion years some old guys will die by it an i will also if u sit down an studie weed in general ull start to understand why it acts an does wat it does mh gives off uvb light the plant is tryin to guard itself from this light so it naturaly produces way an i mean way more trichs i kinda said it in a lame down to earth way but u can search an find the text book def. Mh will produce stash weed the type of weed u save for urself u can easily get 2 oz dry off of a plant but it will be 2 oz of the dankest stickiest potent smoke. I am a connoisseur an o how i love a bag full of silver dollar size nuggs so to sum it up go mh all the way if ur a personal stash grower 3 plants will give u around 4 oz i mean damn thats alot of danky stanky bud to put u on ur ass who the hell need a pound a week plus it proven that flowerin with mh will bring out the craziest colors ur blues will be bluer ur purples will look violet just premium smoke all the way around an whos to say if u have 4 0z u cant sell 2 an stash two people will see ur colors an potent product an come back drooling (only if were u live is legal to grow weed do ever do anything illegal )


but on the other hand there are people that do need a pound a week an yes go with a hps if u have to acheive this but u will good great pot but it wont be connoisseur an these r not my words its been known for decades it a strain is capable of producing up to 22% thc a hps will give u fat ass buds all swollen an lookin good but the thc will only hit around 17% yes this is amazinly freekin high comparing it to the 8% thc that was called dank in the 70s off of 3 plants ull easily pull 7 oz an it will be great quality grade a weed but not a+ thats why i say hps is for the cash u can grown a grade weed an have tons of it an sell it but hey it ur opinion

some will go with a mixture the 2 to 1 ratio u can have a 600 watt hps with a 250 watt mh this also works great but in my opinion thats too much damn money an forget a conversion bulb crap im not spending 350 dollars hell no the best way to go is to get a mh an use like a 42 watt red spectrum cfl directed on each plant so if u have three plants get three cfls in the red spectrum 2700 an just have like a 400 watt mh over the top this is the most perfect way
 

Rusty Crutch

Well-Known Member
I've noticed that plants take longer to mature and keep growing vegetation (foxtails) when they should be concentrating on adding weight to the existing buds. I would only recommend using for veg or in the last two weeks of flowering personally. I'm sure everyone has their own opinion on the subject, but I'm just speaking from my own experience.

Saying that using a 400 w MH and a 42 w 2700k CFL is "the most perfect way" to light your plants is rather presumptuous. I think that my 1 x 400w HPS, 1 x 400w MH and 7 26w 2700k (red) spirals are doing the job. Next grow I'm going to throw out the CFL's and get a 600w digital HPS. I'll be using the 400w HPS and MH for side lighting which should give me a nice (not perfect) mix of white and red.

Who does your research?
 

zues

Active Member
Rusty ur rite in some strains it does take a week longer thats normal thats y i said throw a cfl in the mix its cheap an gets the job done
 

zues

Active Member
Stumps i can see if i can find a diagram but humans cant see uvb with there eyes but this is text book knoweledge im pretty sure all the scientest didnt get together an say were goin to trick the world to make them think mh lights put out uvb .... Im not tryin to be a smart ass or nuffin thats just the only way i can explain wat im tryin to say
 

Rusty Crutch

Well-Known Member
Rusty ur rite in some strains it does take a week longer thats normal thats y i said throw a cfl in the mix its cheap an gets the job done
A single CFL red CFL per plant wont do Squat. I have 2700k CFL's all over my setup and I can happily say that they aren't worth a pinch of shit for flowering.

3 plants ull easily pull 7 oz an it will be great quality grade a weed but not a+
I am pulling an easy 8 oz per plant (½ g per watt) with an even MH/HPS spread. Forget the CFL nonsense, they cost more than HID in the long run and put out less lumens per watt than HID. The "perfect" method of lighting is pure HID all the way, weather it be MH, HPS or both in any ratio. The amount of UVB that MH lamps emit is small and many manufacturers use UVB shielding glass to filter out most of the UVB that's produced anyway. If you want to increase UVB rays you would be better off buying a UVB reptile light and some sunscreen. Those fuckers give you skin cancer.
 

zues

Active Member
Rusty never buy a reptile light ... An u just said either go wit mh all the way or hps all the way so wats ur argument ... I dont have a argument im just stating facts am yes u most likely r getting 8 a plant but mh are goin to give u a more potent crop .. Wats ur argument
 

zues

Active Member
I hate when older growers try an push there veiws an there yields all over the site to have newbies thinkin o this is they way to go first thing they scream is all i got this amout of bud ... Its not all about yields all the time some smokers like just pure quality were not tryin to give a joint to everyone in asia we just want our own stash
 

zues

Active Member
Forget big colas and stinky buds: it's all about the resin.

marijuana is perhaps the only plant in history grown primarily for its trichomes. Whether used for hashish or marijuana the objective is the same: production and harvest of THC-rich trichomes (crystals). Yet often the cultivator loses sight of the real goal of growing this plant. Bud size, density, coloration, flavor and odor are all of little value if they do not produce the euphoric sensations we seek.

Trichomes and resins

Trichomes come in many shapes and sizes and are used by plants for many different purposes. Cannabis uses its trichomes for a variety of purposes, some of which require THC and other cannabinoids to be effective, and others that do not.

The primary goal of any plant is to create and nurture seeds to the point where they will be viable for future growth. Trichomes help prevent seed damage from dessication, insects, animals, light degradation and fungal disease. Perhaps the most successful function of trichomes in the proliferation of cannabis is their attractiveness to humans. What better a creature to protect and spread a genus than the most advanced organism on the planet?

An important thing to remember is that heavy trichome production is not necessarily an indication of a potent plant. Some hemp strains have moderate layers of trichomes yet pack only a headache. In drug strains a dense stand of trichomes is a sign that it could be of high potency, but certainly not a guarantee.

This is because the resins that flow within may or may not hold the THC and other cannabinoids that we are looking for.

Indica varieties often look more heavily crystallized than Sativas, yet typically don't have the same mind-warp capabilities. Even with a known high-THC clone, THC level and cannabinoid ratios may change depending on environmental conditions.

What defines drug strain cannabis is the plant's ability to convert cannabidiol (CBD) or possibly cannabichromene (CBC) into THC.1 If we as growers do not provide the plant with reason to make this conversion it likely will devote its energy elsewhere, to aid in its survival.

Environmental Influence

It takes high quality genetics to produce high quality marijuana, but genetics is only half of the equation. The genetic structure (genotype) only plays 50% of the role in determining the appearance and quality (phenotype) of a given plant. The other half is determined by environmental conditions such as light, temperature, humidity and soil nutrition. All these factors play a role in both the physical and chemical nature of marijuana's trichomes.

The best way to take a look at how environment affects THC production is to look where on the planet cannabis has naturally adopted a high THC profile. As cannabis has spread around the world it has taken on many different traits to help in its adaptation to varied areas. The best drug varieties have always been found at equatorial or high altitude locations. The one thing which both of these variables have in common is high light intensity and a large amount of ultraviolet (UV) light in the spectrum.

Recent Swiss trials in outdoor plots of clones grown at different altitudes have shown that there is correlation between higher altitude and increased potency (although there seems to be a trade off in yield). This likely means that THC-rich resins act to protect the plant and its seed from both higher light intensities and ultraviolet presence. It's no surprise that cannabis has developed a chemical to protect itself against the Sun's damaging UV rays, as they can be injurious to all forms of life.

In a plant's search for survival, energy put towards unneeded processes is wasted energy. Therefore a high-THC plant grown in a low THC environment will likely produce a medium THC result.

Humidity also plays a role in plant resin production. Although some potent equatorial strains do seem to occur in high humidity areas, most high-test land races have evolved in drier areas, like Afghanistan. The aridity of the areas of Afghanistan where Indica strains have evolved is quite apparent by the trait of large dense flower clusters. This would only be an advantage in an area of low humidity, as flowers will mold in anything more.2

There are many examples of non-cannabis plants producing resins in order to protect themselves from drying out. The waxy coating on cacti and other succulent plants is a prime example.3 marijuana flowered in humid conditions will often have a longer stalk on the glandular trichome than the same strain grown in drier conditions. While this may give the appearance of being very crystallized, it will likely contain less THC than the same plant grown in a drier environment. Another problem with longer trichome stalks is that the gland heads are more likely to break off during handling.

Flushing: pros and cons

Much time and thought has been put into the feeding needs of each part of marijuana's life cycle, yet for some reason the final stages of resin development always seem to be ignored. But the vegetative period of plant growth is only setting the platform for us to produce the trichomes that we are after.

Flushing in particular seems to be something that is over-emphasized by many of today's growers. Many growers "flush" their plants with straight water or clearing agents during the final weeks before harvest in an effort to improve taste and smokeability. The theory is that this forces the plant to use up stored nutrients that may affect these qualities. Although this is certainly true to some extent, what many are forgetting is that not all nutrients can be moved within the plant.

Nitrogen, which is the main factor in poor-tasting bud, can be moved within the plant. If not present in the root zone a plant will take it from the older leaves to support newer growth. Calcium, however, is a nutrient that cannot be moved within the plant, if it is not present in the root zone it is not available for growth. Little research has been done on nutritional requirements of cannabis during the final stages of flowering, but it seems likely that calcium is vital as it is crucial in cell division. A calcium deficiency at later stages could therefore adversely affect trichome production.

This is not as serious of a concern for soil-based growers, as lime or other calcium sources which are mixed into the soil likely will provide sufficient nutrition even while flushing with pure water. But hydroponic growers using very pure water sources with little naturally occurring calcium could have problems. Flushing is certainly a valid technique, but is easily overdone and is not a quick fix for overfeeding earlier in the flower stage.

Some studies have shown that high potassium levels have a negative influence on THC production,4 which would correlate to the general belief that while hemp crops uptake more potassium than phosphorous, the reverse seems to be true for drug and seed cannabis crops.2 A study on how to minimize THC levels in hemp crops showed that THC levels in newer leaf growth decreased as nitrogen levels were increased.5 As no THC measurement was taken from floral clusters we can only speculate that the same would likely hold true in buds. This would also explain the good results that most growers have flushing their plants, as nitrogen is the nutrient most easily flushed from the soil.

Companion planting

Much research is still needed on the interrelationships of plants in the garden. Little is known about common vegetable garden plants effect on each other, let alone how they may react with cannabis.

Growing certain plants in proximity to each other has been documented to cause noticeable effects on growth, both positive and negative. The main companion plant that has attracted interest with underground marijuana researchers is stinging nettle (Urtica dioica) which has been said to increase essential oils in many plants.6

Breeding for potency

marijuana is unique from an evolutionary standpoint in being the only plant in history that in some cases has been grown and bred for over two decades under nothing but artificial light. It is very likely that there have already been some genetic changes that have taken place as a result of this. All plants, especially cannabis, will quickly adapt to a new habitat by adding or dropping traits over successive generations. With breeders doing potentially as many as three or four generations per year, over 20 years there is great opportunity for drift from original genotypes.

Some "oldtimers" of the cannabis community have theorized that the use of high pressure sodium (HPS) light as a sole source of lighting has resulted in unconscious selection for lower THC parents during breeding.7 This theory is based on the assumption that ultraviolet light is a large causal factor in the plants production of THC. As HPS lights produce little in the way of UV, the lower potency plants could look the most vigorous in early selections (before flowering) as they would have a genetic advantage over high THC plants (less wasted energy).

A common way of conducting a breeding program where space is limited is to start large seed lots and then select the best individuals for flowering. Vic High and others have done some preliminary research into creating high UV environments by adding tanning or medical UV lights to their regular lighting for early seedling selections.8 As most Dutch breeding is done behind closed doors it is unknown whether this is used by any breeders in Holland.

Tricks of the trade

Delving through the history of marijuana cultivation you will find a myriad of techniques used to supposedly increase THC production. Much of this is little more than hippie folklore, but over the years some techniques have appeared which seem based on some amount of science.

Although some of the younger growers these days may never have used a metal halide light, many of the older set still swear by them as a complement to high-pressure sodiums in the flower room. With the advent several years ago of the Son-Agro HPS bulbs and others like it, which offer a higher amount of blue in the spectrum than standard HPS, many growers have felt that that they can do away with metal halides altogether. Growing strictly under sodiums has its advantages in terms of yield per watt, but is still lacking as far as a balanced spectrum when compared to a mix of HPS and halide.

Anyone that has ever seen a mixed light garden can testify that the healthiest, most crystallized buds occur where the two spectrums overlap. Again this brings us back to the UV factor, as metal halide bulbs emit a fair amount of UV while HPS emit almost none. Most growers employing halides in conjunction with HPS do so at a 2:1 HPS:halide ratio. Many growers, especially those restricted to one light, have been having good success using one of the new enhanced metal halide bulbs such as Sunmaster, which have a more balanced spectrum than either sodium or regular halide alone.

Glass and plastic materials used in greenhouses and air/water cooled light reflectors will block most useful wavelengths of UV from reaching plants. Luckily, recent research has shown that allowing UV to enter the greenhouse has many advantages on non-cannabis crops, and so some European greenhouses are beginning to switch to UV transparent glazing materials. Trade names for some of these products are Planilux, Diamant or Optiwhite. Plastic made from polymethylmethacrylate (PMMA) also transmits UV-B (the type that we are looking for). Traditional greenhouse coverings such as polyvinyl chloride (PVC), fiberglass, polycarbonate or regular glass allow little if any UV-B transmission.9

Harvesting in the morning ensures that your plant will be at peak THC content, as cannabis has shown THC fluctuations peaking in morning and dropping during the day. Some growers leave their lights off for several days before harvest to increase potency. This seems to have some scientific validity as light has been shown to degrade THC, hence the morning peaks. As light is the degrading factor and the plant still has the ability to manufacture THC during darkness, leaving the lights off for a day or two before harvest likely utilizes the plants stored potential for THC conversion without any opportunity for it to be degraded into cannabinol (CBN) and other breakdown products.8


Traditionally marijuana has been harvested when the pistils die and the calyx starts to swell into a false seed pod. These days the best growers are getting much more detailed in their harvesting criteria. They take a close look at the trichomes themselves to judge peak harvest. Evidence that this is the only real way to tell peak maturity is in Sagarmatha's strain Matanuska Tundra, which ripens resin glands while most pistils are still alive and white. This seems an odd twist of evolution but proves that the pistil color and ripe glands do not necessarily have any correlation.

A small 25x or more pocket microscope, which can be picked up inexpensively at any electronic store, works well for taking a closer look at trichome development. What we are examining are the capitate stalked glandular trichomes, which will be a round gland head supported on a stalk. The coloration of these gland heads can vary between strains and maturity. Most strains start with clear or slightly amber heads which gradually become opaque when THC levels have peaked and are beginning to degrade. Regardless of the initial colour of the resin head, with careful observation you should be able to see a change in coloration as maturity levels off.

Some cultivators wait for about half of the heads to go opaque before harvest to ensure maximum THC levels in the bud. Of course nothing tells the truth more than your own head, so try samples at various stages to see what's right for you. While you may be increasing the total THC level in the bud by allowing half of the glands to go opaque, the bud will also have a larger proportion of THC breakdown products such as CBNs, which is why some people prefer to harvest earlier while most of the heads are still clear.

Indica varieties usually have a 1-2 week harvest window to work with, while Sativas and Indica/Sativa hybrids may have a much longer period to play with.


Glandular conclusion

With the growing popularity of personal hashmaking through precision screening, many growers are starting to pay closer attention to the development of glands. The use of different size screens to separate glands of different sizes can only broaden our knowledge of the subtle nuances of trichome quality.

Growers using the same clone line over many crops have an excellent opportunity to play with some of these different techniques, as the main variable will be the environment, not the plant. Keep in mind that different strains may react very differently to the same techniques so be careful about drawing general conclusions.

marijuana growers must look closer at their crop than the average farmer to achieve a premium product. Rows upon rows of beautiful plants are of no use if they do not glisten with the THC-laden trichomes that are the object of our quest.

Nurture your trichomes and feed your head

1) Starks, Michael. 1977. marijuana Chemistry Genetics, Processing and Potency. Ronin Publishing, Inc., Berkeley, CA pp. 17-86.
2) McParland, Clarke, Watson. Hemp Diseases and Pests; management and biological control, CABI Publishing, New York, NY
3) Pate, DW, 1994. Chemical ecology of Cannabis. Journal of the International Hemp Association 2: 29, 32-37.
4) Kutscheid, 1973. Quantitative variation in chemical constituents of marihuana from stands of naturalized Cannabis sativa L. in east central Illinois. Economic Botany 27: 193-203.
5) Bócsa, Máthé and Hangyel. Effect of nitrogen on tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) content in hemp leaves at different positions. 1997. Journal of the International Hemp Association 4(2): 78 -79.
6) Helen Philbrick and Richard B Gregg. Companion Plants and How to Use Them. 1996. Devin-Adair Company, Old Greenwich, CT.
7) Oldtimer1, 2001. Personal communication
Vic High, 2001. BC Growers Association. Web site and help desk.
9) Hoffman, Dr Silke. 2001. Ultraviolet radiation in the greenhouse. Floraculture International, May 2001. Ball Publishing, Batavia, Illinois. pp18-27.
• An excellent general reference is marijuana Botany, by Robert Connell Clarke. Ronin Publishing, Inc. Berkeley, CA
 

Rusty Crutch

Well-Known Member
The point that I'm trying to make is that in your words "
the best way to go is to get a mh an use like a 42 watt red spectrum cfl
" and "
get three cfls in the red spectrum 2700 an just have like a 400 watt mh over the top this is the most perfect way
". Its by far neither the best or the most perfect way.
Older grower? I've been doing this for less than 3 years. The difference between you and me is that I listen to what other people say and research ideas using practical means. You have founded a weak idea and are trying to sell it as a "be all and end all" perfect way to grow weed. You need to do some actual fact based research before you start wildly claiming that your idea is the best. Even your "cut paste" growing guide says that "
Most growers employing halides in conjunction with HPS do so at a 2:1 HPS:halide ratio.
How are you going to achieve that with a 400 W MH and pissy CFL? Best? Perfect?! Not by a long shot.
 

BigBudBalls

Well-Known Member
How many tests did you run? All from the same mother? Different strains? etc.
One solution doesn't fit all.

(can't wait till we see the disclaimers on our post like on the drug commercials. May cause drowsiness, compulsive eating, and strange thoughts)
 

Moldy

Well-Known Member
Trade names for some of these products are Planilux, Diamant or Optiwhite. Plastic made from polymethylmethacrylate (PMMA) also transmits UV-B (the type that we are looking for). Traditional greenhouse coverings such as polyvinyl chloride (PVC), fiberglass, polycarbonate or regular glass allow little if any UV-B transmission.9
I didn't know that UV passes through acrylic! I did know that PMMA was UV resistant but I didn't know that it doesn't block it out. Good to know, thanks for the info!:-P
 

zues

Active Member
Big bud balls ive been usin this methid for the last 2 years ... I was in wash state an had a very interestin convo wit a old guy about 60yrs he was very familiar wit humbolt county so we got to chattin an bascailly he was sayin that weed grown up in higher altitudes r the dankest long story short i did lots of research an found out its the uv thats makin them extra potent the plants only protection from these rays is to guard itsself by throwin more trichs ... I posted a long very detailed post on it here but i now run a sunnmasters m which has a upgraded blue spec . Dude it freekin works wonders
 

BCBuddy420

Well-Known Member
I run a balanced HPS/MH spectrum 1:1 ratio. I stagger the lights for a full room flood of balanced HID, this is the way the pros grow. I agree with some aspects of this thread, but only that which deals with HID because they are the LIGHTS, there isn't any other. I choose to use both at once for flowering but mh for veg. Not alot is said about a HID mix so good thread man.
 

stevenr

Member
How's this for an old guy pushing his bias, zues: My first response to that awesome bit of research you posted was, "Thank the gods. Puntuation and capitalization!" haha

But seriously man, that is some meaty stuff. I've saved it for future rereading. There's a lot to learn there. And there's seeds for all kinds of different topics for our experts to chim in on. Here's a one I'd like to hear more about
----The organic farmers say that superior taste has to do with the depth of flavor from an ecosystem. The problem with simplified food sources, especially nitrogen, is that it kills off everything lots of stuff before the plant gets burned. So flushing makes sense to remove side tastes from chemicals, but won't taste as good as a rich soil. Just try the comparison with cheap food vs. hydroponic vs. organics from the grocery store.
Cheers
 

zues

Active Member
Stevenr i tried to get a list an bascailly go over somethings that lots of us have questions about
 
  • Like
Reactions: dog

Harrekin

Well-Known Member
Interesting what you say...but I was under the impression that MH bulbs give off blue spectrum light, but not UVB, they're not one and the same...I mean the glass the bulbs are made of would block off any UVB light being produced anyway. If you wanted to get the proper dual-spectrum effect would you not use a HPS bulb for the bud-mass and blue CFL's as side lighting for the apparent benefits you list? Also, the peak THC percentage is determined by genetics, not by enviromental conditions (that would be potency and that is determined by the amount of actual bud and trichrome,not the % of THC). Not jumping on you here, but in every other field of any science experimental results are supposed to peer reviewed/critiqued.
 
Top