Lucas Formula Recipe from Scratch "Really"

Interesting thread, im glad i enrolled in chem.

To make short thing short. Fatman, i'm doing aero/nfl, similar to stink set-up but with twice or even more the flow of water and a little bit more spacing in the fence-post. You mention 3-1-2 ratio, could i just run the dyna-gro floiage for the entire grow? from veg to flowering.

I been hammering my head with what nutrients to run and use, i figure i first have to understand plant growth. I use to be a follower of stinkbud recipe, the botincare line. Organic was best right as he said, but what did i knew then.

According to your research and knowledge, what is best nutes that i can run for medium res that is recirculated? approx 10-15gal. I would like to hear whats your on using nutes with tap or ro'd water. There is alot of controversy about both, al b. famous quote, "as long as you can drink it, you can safely grow cannisbus with it". I know my set-up is par with the hydro to waste, but work with me

I can't comment to much on the work or opinions of the guru status "experts" as I tend to get banished for doing that. I will say I get larger yields than the "experts" at a much lower production cost and I most often find what they write as being far from scientifically based or even based uopn emperical observations but most often their opinions are just old myths being regurgitated. I have been growing indoors under lights, hydroponically for several decades and gave up on most of their archaic practices over 20 years ago. I am just not one that settles for "well enough" when better is possible and very often more productive and economical.


But to put it simply. Besides teaching, I am in charge of a university water research lab and I also design water treatment plants, waste water treatment plants and fish hatcheries. I will simply say that unless you have someone with an education in water chemistry to look over a water analysis of your water so as to adjust your nutrient formulation or design a custom formulation I would highly recommend a RO filter. A simple RO filter such as this one for $124 would be fine:

http://www.thefilterguys.biz/ro_di_systems.htm

If you are going to use a small tube type system for NTF I would recomend that you put root mat or silkscreen cloth on the bottom of the tubes. Dyna-Gro has to little calcium and magmesiun for indoor hydro grow. If you add Botanicare Cal-Mag that will eliminate that problem, but not the ammonium problem of Dyna-Gro. Dyna-gro has a huge amount of its total nitrogen as ammonium nitrate. This tends to cause large daily drops in pH. I realy donot recommend anyone use Dyna-gro unless they are growing out doors in soil or peat moss, unless they use a pH controllert 24/7

I mix my own nutrient formulations. For a recirculation reservervoir system I would suggest using GH (NOT LUCAS) Flora two part (Grow, Bloom) and FloraMicro at about 1/2 to 2/3 the strength they recommend. No supplements. I would suggest you read up on using chlorine to control root rot.

fatman7574 said:

I would suggest you read up on using chlorine to control root rot.

Click to expand...

Fatman I read up on chlorine in one of your other posts: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/286022-killing-root-rot-2.html

SDKID thats a good place to get chlorine info

Question: Are you familiar with Dutch Master ZONE? I use it in lieu of chlorine or H2O2. It has this faint chlorine smell so I think it has some in it. My roots are always healthy now that I use it. I can't find any detailed data on it but it was highly recommended. Fairly cheap at 2 cents to dose a gallon. I understand that H2O2 has some effect on Iron. Could you elaborate on this? Thanks.

I asked a question on another thread which you kindly took the time to reply, very in depth I might add, and I thank you.

Hi Fatman
Great thread and Im hoping you can help me.

We have had a law change in my country and as of now photographic ID has to be presented and recorded to purchase anything from a hydroponic retailer including nutrients. I have access to the raw materials but would not no how to start making my own nutrients so I'm hoping that you can help me.

I grow 6 plants in their own 15L Hempy buckets that are watered every other day in a perlite/vermiculite 4/1 mix.
I guess you know what a hempy bucket is ( 15L bucket filled with my mix. Small hole 50mm from the bottom and watered every other day untill It comes out the hole. Each bucket has its own small res so to speak )

I use rain water.

My room is well temp controlled at about 77-78deg and plants are circled around 2 600hps stacked above each other.
I typically veg 4 wks plus finishing at 5-6' . . . . so I guess I grow trees.

My predicament is that I cant buy nutes safely anymore and was hoping you could put together a recipe for me for both veg and bloom. I was using GH Flora series with reasonable results. I obviously dont go through huge amounts with this many plants but really need to make my own now. I guess a 3 part gives you better flexibility than the Lucas method. What are your thoughts.
Thanks in advance
BMan

bman01 said:

Hi Fatman
Great thread and Im hoping you can help me.

We have had a law change in my country and as of now photographic ID has to be presented and recorded to purchase anything from a hydroponic retailer including nutrients. I have access to the raw materials but would not no how to start making my own nutrients so I'm hoping that you can help me.

I grow 6 plants in their own 15L Hempy buckets that are watered every other day in a perlite/vermiculite 4/1 mix.
I guess you know what a hempy bucket is ( 15L bucket filled with my mix. Small hole 50mm from the bottom and watered every other day untill It comes out the hole. Each bucket has its own small res so to speak )

I use rain water.

My room is well temp controlled at about 77-78deg and plants are circled around 2 600hps stacked above each other.
I typically veg 4 wks plus finishing at 5-6' . . . . so I guess I grow trees.

My predicament is that I cant buy nutes safely anymore and was hoping you could put together a recipe for me for both veg and bloom. I was using GH Flora series with reasonable results. I obviously dont go through huge amounts with this many plants but really need to make my own now. I guess a 3 part gives you better flexibility than the Lucas method. What are your thoughts.
Thanks in advance
BMan

Click to expand...

The below formulations are for recirculation reservoir systems. They are low ammonium nitrogen fertilizations so they have lower phosphorus as typically phosphoric acid is being added quite often due to pH rises during high nitrate uptake. If you like I can make up formualtions more desirable to your growing method. Your method is more like a soil grow but with out the humus to buffer against pH rises. Your system would likely do better with lower calcium, and magnesium but higher phosphorus as one would use with a drain to waster hydro like a high pressure aero system.

fatman's Veg Formulation
ppm

Nitrogen 267
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 291
Magnesium 93
Calcium 261
Sulfur 123
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 91.5
Potassium Nitrate 17.4
Iron Chelate 7.14
Part B
Potassium Nitrate 17.4
MonoPotassium Phosphate 27.3
Magnesium Sulfate 66.4
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions
5.3 gallons
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.75
pH 5.8
TDS 1925

fatman's Bloom Formula
ppm
Nitrogen 240
Phosphorus 74
Potassium 261
Magnesium 84
Calcium 235
Sulfur 111
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum .09

Ounces

Part A

Calcium Nitrate 82.2
Potassium Nitrate 15.6
Iron Chelate 7.14

Part B

Potassium Nitrate 15.6
MonoPotassium Phosphate 24.6
Magnesium Sulfate 59.7
Manganese Sulfate 1.423
Boric Acid / Solubor 1.944
Zinc Sulfate 1.542
Copper Sulfate .311
Ammonium Molybdate .013
Volume of Stock Solutions 5.3
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.47
TDS 1729
pH 5.8

Yes the formulations can be made in smaller batchs. Say for a 1.06 gallon batch divide each ingrediant by 5. A batch of say 5.3 gallons of concentrate means 2.65 gallons of Part A and 2.65 gallons of Part B. Not 5.3 gallons of each. The formulations should cost about $5 per each gallon of 100 to 1 concentrate.

Fatman thanks so much for your quick response. If you could make up formulations for my pots that would be greatly appreciated. I cant believe they have made this law change. Anyway if you make up this formulation I have absolutely no need to visit hydro stores as I can source everything elsewhere. I was growing in coco but only the hydro stores sell it here but I think I will do ok with the 4/1 perlite vermiculite mix. Do you think that medium mix is a good ratio to wick up from the bottom of the bucket? I will experiment with the hole position to get to a daily watering cycle as I become more familiar with the system. Got to be better than dirt!
I searched for days to find a thread like this as I always felt robbed from the nutrient companies . . . . Great job mate!!

Hi Fatman,

In your main mineral list you have Sulfur. Is that Sulfuric acid and how does it play into parts "A" & "B"? Also, I'm assuming Mono Potassium Phosphate is a mix of Potassium and Phosphorus listed in the main ingredients with the appropriate PPM's. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.

AeroTrek said:

Hi Fatman,

In your main mineral list you have Sulfur. Is that Sulfuric acid and how does it play into parts "A" & "B"? Also, I'm assuming Mono Potassium Phosphate is a mix of Potassium and Phosphorus listed in the main ingredients with the appropriate PPM's. Is this correct?

Thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

The top of the list is what is listed as a guranteed analysis by ppm (grams/liter). Sulfur is the contribution of sulfr from the fertilizer compound magnesium sulfate with a very small additional amount of sulfate also coming from some of the trace nutrients. Plants get enough sulfur from the magnesium sulfate so commonly sulfuric acid is not need for its sulfur content. When it is used by growers it is used to lower the nutrient pH. However Phophoric acid is more commonly use as a recirculating resrvoir is alwys losing phosphorus in buffering compounds being formed so it is more beneficial then sulfuric acid.

Lower down you will see the list and the weights of the actual fertilizers you would use (either in grams or ounces depending on which formulation your viewing).. Yes mono potassium phosphate is a fertilizer compound containing both Phosphorus and Potassium. Calcium Nitrate is a fertilizer compound containing Calcium and nitrate. The formulas posted are pH adjusted for use in RO water or water near a pH of 7. There should not be any pH adjustment need when the mix is initally used at a 1 to 1 ratio of Part A to Part B.

The nutrients when mixed at 100 to 1 with water are quite strong. Much stronger than most people would use. A 150 to 1 ratio would be sufficient.

Consider the Bloom formula at 100 to 1 being an EC of 2.47, mixing it at 150 to 1 would mean; [(2.47 + 2.47/2)]/2 = 1.85 for an EC or roughly (1.85 * 700) = 1295 ppm.

Hi Fatman

Any luck with my new formulation?

Cheers Bman

nutrients are nutrients its al about the npk value i only got 2 page 2 but yall should watch this video on you tube called the the great phosphorus myth, gives newbie growers an idea of how much nutes cannibus really uses, peace all

reeferMaster said:

nutrients are nutrients its al about the npk value i only got 2 page 2 but yall should watch this video on you tube called the the great phosphorus myth, gives newbie growers an idea of how much nutes cannibus really uses, peace all

Click to expand...

Dude, you are obviously not very learned about the topic of hydroponic nutrients chemistry/formulations. The fact that you think Fat Mikie of AN has any idea what he is talking about is proof enough you need to read the whole thread rather than bring uo the ludicrous phosphorus great debate video. The NPK values are just a small part of hydroponic nutrient formualtions. Do you know anything about aquatic chemistry or carbonate chemistry? If you think the phosphorus great debate video is any thing but more of Mikie's marketing your obviously not knowledgable enough about the science of hydroponic nutrient chemistry and formulations to be cutting from page 2 to the back page and making an off the wall statement like "it is all about NPK values" and "watch this video on the you tube called the great phosphorus myth."

Fat Mike will say or do anything to try to make it appear his products are better than GH or Canna or Botanicare including posting absurd videos such as The Great Phosphorus Myth. The man belongs behind bars. Course it would very likelynot be a good idea to go to the consumer protection people or the better business bureau, a prosecutor, attorney general or a lawyer to sue or have prosecuted someone who is selling you mj nutrients and lieing about mj nutrients etc.

Hi Fatman
Just wondering if you had a chance to look at a modified nutrient plan for my buckets. Thanks again!

Cheers

Bman

bman01 said:

Hi Fatman
Just wondering if you had a chance to look at a modified nutrient plan for my buckets. Thanks again!

Cheers

Bman

Click to expand...

relentless much? lol
seriously though, in the past 2 days you have asked him this same question four different times. maybe he hasnt had time to make you your own personal nutrient formula?

LOL I feel like a stalker
Na just in a real jam at the moment so just makn sure it dosn't get missed. . . . . . damn Law changes has caught me without nutes 5 weeks into 12/12. More desperate than relentless kinda had to put all my eggs in fatmans basket. I"m sure hes real busy and certainly appreciate his help.

This shit always happens when you least expect it!

Sorry to sound like a broken record fatman!

bman01 said:

LOL I feel like a stalker
Na just in a real jam at the moment so just makn sure it dosn't get missed. . . . . . damn Law changes has caught me without nutes 5 weeks into 12/12. More desperate than relentless kinda had to put all my eggs in fatmans basket. I"m sure hes real busy and certainly appreciate his help.

This shit always happens when you least expect it!

Sorry to sound like a broken record fatman!

Click to expand...

yeah, and the worst part is that he ALREADY ANSWERED your question 1 page back..and yet you are too busy posting (begging) for FREE CONSULTATION to go read it!!. I think that was quite nice of fatman, but why do you stalk the guy after he answered you?!

(ps this thread is 12 pages, and isn't the only one fatman has posted in..plenty of information that you could try reading instead of begging to be spoon-fed)

bman01 said:

Fatman thanks so much for your quick response. If you could make up formulations for my pots that would be greatly appreciated. I cant believe they have made this law change. Anyway if you make up this formulation I have absolutely no need to visit hydro stores as I can source everything elsewhere. I was growing in coco but only the hydro stores sell it here but I think I will do ok with the 4/1 perlite vermiculite mix. Do you think that medium mix is a good ratio to wick up from the bottom of the bucket? I will experiment with the hole position to get to a daily watering cycle as I become more familiar with the system. Got to be better than dirt!
I searched for days to find a thread like this as I always felt robbed from the nutrient companies . . . . Great job mate!!

Click to expand...

yeah dude..ungrateful much?? people pay MONEY AND LOTS OF IT for personalized consultation like what you want spoon-fed..only all you are offering is your "appreciation" WOWW..exactly WHAT IS you problem with the forumlation he gave your or any of the other bajillion formulations he has posted here?

bman01 said:

LOL I feel like a stalker
Na just in a real jam at the moment so just makn sure it dosn't get missed. . . . . . damn Law changes has caught me without nutes 5 weeks into 12/12. More desperate than relentless kinda had to put all my eggs in fatmans basket. I"m sure hes real busy and certainly appreciate his help.

This shit always happens when you least expect it!

Sorry to sound like a broken record fatman!

Click to expand...

As you can see it is for 5 gallons of part A and 5 gallons of part B to be mixed in equal parts. Water with fertilizer the first day then one or two days with just RO water. I would not use it any stronger than a 200 to 1 mix. IE 19 ml of each per gallon. To mix say 1/2 gallon of each just devide every weight by 10. Basically it takes just 2.6 pounds of fertilizer to makeonegallon of 100x concentrate fertilizer. In small amounts fertilizers sell for an average of about $2 to $3 per pound. An average of $1 per pound in large 50 pound bags and with tarce nutrients in one or two pound bags. Kinda makes you go huh, WTF? Five dollars to make your own and $50 or to $100 for the same stuff retailed in a plastic jug with a pretty label. Yepper them Mj nutrient guys be living in million dollar homes with 8 car garages full of Hummer's, BMW's, Mercedes, restored classic muscle cars and custom Harleys as we all risk going to Federal prisons. Some kinda scam they and the *eed growers got goin'. Hide behind a foreign border and suck money out of the wallets of 10's of thousands of U.S. mj growers. Oh my!

ppm
Nitrogen 230
Phosphorus 82
Potassium 359
Magnesium 93
Calcium 184
Sulfur 123
Iron 10.00
Manganese 5.00
Boron 5.00
Zinc 5.00
Copper 1.00
Molybdenum 0.09

Ounces
Part A
Calcium Nitrate 121.8
Potassium Nitrate 44.3
Iron Chelate 13.50

Part B
Potassium Nitrate B 44.3
MonoPotassium Phosphate 51.6
Magnesium Sulfate 125.4
Manganese Sulfate 2.689
Boric Acid / Solubor 3.675
Zinc Sulfate 2.914
Copper Sulfate .588
Ammonium Molybdate .024
Volume of Stock Solutions 10 (5 gal Part A and 5 Gallons Part B)
Dilution Rate 100
EC 2.58
TDS 1806
pH 5.8
Salt Weight 3105

12268 said:

yeah dude..ungrateful much?? people pay MONEY AND LOTS OF IT for personalized consultation like what you want spoon-fed..only all you are offering is your "appreciation" WOWW..exactly WHAT IS you problem with the forumlation he gave your or any of the other bajillion formulations he has posted here?

Click to expand...

Yes he was kind enough to post a formula to help me out of a serious jam and if you read that post completely you will find that he offered to put together a revised formula more suited to my situation. I have helped people out of serious jams in other forums where their posts have been missed and am happy to help anyone as is fatman by the looks of it. I read the thread front to back before asking someone who is more than qualified to answer a technical question that most would not be able to. I dont recall begging but was on huge time restraints and was not trying to rush fatman but merely making sure my posts did not get missed as they sometimes seem to. I did not beg or ask to be spoon fed I just needed urgent info. Having read a few of Fatmans posts I'm pretty sure he can stick up for himself if he feels that he needs too. But in saying that I understand waht you are saying and alot of people ask without searching but I did search as I always do! Thanks for your comments though

Fatman thanks so much!! I'll let you know how it works out and post complete stats for my grow. That way hopefully others can get something out of it too. I appologize if I came accross in the way that 12268 has said but that was certainly not my intention. Making my own nutrients is not my strong point and this site is extremely lucky to have your expertise.

Just to make sure I've got it right Fatman the original recirculating formula was for 2.65gal water for A and 2.65gal for B? So this one makes twice as much at 5gal A and 5 gal B? I can half the ingredients on the revised formula and use 2.5gal of water for A and 2.5gal for B . . correct?

The latter formula is for Bloom?

If you could spoon feed me the veg formula too if you get a chance that would be fantastic.

Thanks again!

Grow safe!!

Bman

fatman7574 said:

Dude, you are obviously not very learned about the topic of hydroponic nutrients chemistry/formulations. The fact that you think Fat Mikie of AN has any idea what he is talking about is proof enough you need to read the whole thread rather than bring uo the ludicrous phosphorus great debate video. The NPK values are just a small part of hydroponic nutrient formualtions. Do you know anything about aquatic chemistry or carbonate chemistry? If you think the phosphorus great debate video is any thing but more of Mikie's marketing your obviously not knowledgable enough about the science of hydroponic nutrient chemistry and formulations to be cutting from page 2 to the back page and making an off the wall statement like "it is all about NPK values" and "watch this video on the you tube called the great phosphorus myth."

Fat Mike will say or do anything to try to make it appear his products are better than GH or Canna or Botanicare including posting absurd videos such as The Great Phosphorus Myth. The man belongs behind bars. Course it would very likelynot be a good idea to go to the consumer protection people or the better business bureau, a prosecutor, attorney general or a lawyer to sue or have prosecuted someone who is selling you mj nutrients and lieing about mj nutrients etc.

Click to expand...

dude if u actually watched the video it really has nothing 2 do with advanced nutrients, its statistics on cannibus tissue samples and what they desire most, he didnt says that the companys are bad, heres where u pull ur head far from ur ass, he was mentioning thier needs, witch would be the npk value on nutrients, other plants have different desire for minor nutrients, he explains what the plant wants during flower stage compared 2 what it wants during vegging, he explains why the npk value on some bloom bootsters are useless for cannibus and do not provide proper nutrition for max yeiled... i dont really care for fat mike or an i just like the information on cannibus growing everybody watch it,( the great phosphorus myth) on you tube